Talk:Danzan-ryū

New Section
JA (Jujitsu America) and The AJJF govern 'sport' versions of DZR as well. But the main branch of DZR that focuses solely on application and taught from Profs. Okazaki and Kufferaths direct notes is governed by Kodenkan Jujutsu in Santa Clara, CA. ytf

Actually there are ten or more branches of Danzan, including ones in Costa Rica and Europe

Changed definition to Honolulu
A quick linguistic note: The character 檀 actually means sandalwood, not cedar. 檀山 (Pinyin: tánshān) actually means Honolulu, not Hawaii (夏威夷, Pinyin: xiàwēiyí). In modern Chinese, it is more commonly written "檀香山" (Pinyin: tánxiāng shān). However, 檀山 is still used. A-cai 06:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

BJJ More Popular Than Danzan Ryu?
I believe Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is more popular in the United States than Danzan Ryu. A quick google search shows 1,050,000 hits for BJJ and 30,800 for DR. Amazon.com shows 32 books for BJJ and nothing for DR. Since there is no conclusive proof either way, I am removing that phrase from this article and not inserting it into BJJ article. - Jimmy C. 22:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The number of hits or books does not always equate to number of practitioners. 198.212.208.14 (talk) 21:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Bob McKean’s “Is It Danzan Ryu Jujitsu” article suggests a total of 7,500 DZR students; but with no source, and caveats regarding just how to define “DZR,” which could affect his count. Then of course there’s the issue of finding a comparable number for BJJ.

My knee-jerk response is that in Southern California, I see places claiming to teach BJJ (that definitional issue again?) all over the place, whereas one must seek out DZR dojos. Jdickinson (talk) 05:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

First to teach westerners?
There were westerners training in Japan in the late 1800s. There were westerners with black belts before Okazaki ever began teaching. Okazaki *may* have been the first *in Hawaii* to permit other races to train without prejudice, but there were many others who did so in Europe, America, and Japan decades earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.228.102 (talk • contribs)

Christian JuJitsu
Master Okazaki was one of the few Asian martial arts masters who converted from Buddhism and Shinto to Christianity. This is well documented. The first person to state this on multiple occasions was Prof. Bud Estes, a founder of the AJJF. Hachiro Okazaki told the Okazaki Biographical Reasearch Team in 1978 and it is on tape and in their notes. Esther Takamoto, Okazaki's daughter, also verified it. In fact she testified that every Sunday, Okazaki would tuck his Bible under his arm and walk to church. This is also on tape and in the official notes.

Prof. Estes in his private teaching of the "Okugi" with Prof. Edwards was explicit that these "arts" are from Christ and the Holy Bible. One of the first assignments Prof. Estes gave to Prof. Edwards and Prof. Ball was to read the book of Matthew in the Holy Bible, underline the miracles, and be prepared to discuss them at the next meeting.

A simple note about Okazaki's christianity would be fine here, but this article should focus more on the style. More in depth information on Okazaki's beliefs should go under his biographical article User5802 08:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Namba Shoshin Ryu, Iwagu Ryu, & Kosogabe Ryu
The wikipedia article repeats the oft-quoted (within Danzan Ryu circles) history that Okazaki returned to Japan in the 1920's and "underwent a study of the various schools, or 'ryu' of the most popular Jujutsu styles of the times: Yoshin Ryu, Namba-shoshin Ryu, Iwaga Ryu, Kosogabe Ryu, Kodokan Judo and several others." Kodokan judo and Yoshin Ryu are well known, but what about the other three? Nobody seems to have heard of these (except self-referentially when talking about the arts Okazaki studied). I think somebody either needs to find out more about these three styles of jujitsu or at least note in a footnote that essentially nothing seems to be known (at least in the West) about these three arts. To claim they are a major part of the foundation of Danzan Ryu with absolutely no evidence they existed (other than Okazaki saying they did) seems inadequote for wikipedia. Jrdx 20:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge Okazaki NEVER claimed those arts were a MAJOR part of the foundation of Danzan-ryu. Whoever told you that is probably running their mouth. He most likely did study all of those arts, (and yes more research should be done on that), but I believe like any great martial artist, he took what he saw as useful and discarded the rest. Instead, improving where and what he saw could be improved. It's ridiculous to think Okazaki said he took an entire 5 martial arts and stuffed them into one. Only a self-serving individual would even try to say something like that. Okazaki's character can easily be validated for as the president often visited him for work and Okazaki was one of the first japanese martial arts instructors to allow individuals from all nationalities to train at his studio basically gaving the finger to Japanese Racism at the time. --nuff said User5802 09:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is some information gathered on Nanpa-Shoshin-ryu Jujitsu
 * A Mr. Sadao Sakamoto recalled there being a Nanpa-Shoshin Ryu Ju-Jitsu School active in Pepeekeo Hawaii, under the instruction of Mr. Hamai around 1918. This is exactly where and when Okazaki was studying Yoshin-Ryu Ju-Jitsu at the Hilo Shinyu-Kai in 1918. Most likely this is the source of Okazaki's Nanpa-Shoshin Ryu, there is no "Namba Shoshin Ryu" indeed.
 * link


 * Information on Kosogabe-ryu or perhaps Kosogabu-ryu is much more sparce. A Grandmaster Chinda of Pittsburg Pennsylvania studied Kosogabe Ryu under either Peter Nehls or Frank Piaskovy in Europe. He would probably be a good resource on information pertaining to Kosogabe-ryu. His email and the details about his training are on his site Chinda Dojo


 * Kosogabu-ryu is listed as a known style of Jujitsu in the noted author John Corcoran's Martial Arts Sourcebook at link.


 * Not sure how to contact John, but he may have some useful information. He also wrote "The Original Martial Arts Encyclopedia." This could have something useful in it also.


 * One more note on Kosogabe is located here


 * It tells of the Soga-be in the Kagami and Nagaoka districts, Tosa province, combining the "ka" of Kagami to create Kosogabe.


 * The least information I've been able to gather is on Iwaga-ryu. Note: "Iwagu ryu" here appears to be incorrect.


 * Iwaga-ryu is also listed in the same Sourcebook by John Corcoran here.


 * But that is the only reference I can find to the style.
 * Iwagasaki is located on the Sanhasama River and you can read about it here.
 * Iwagasaki is about 160 miles from where Okazaki was born in Japan.


 * Date, Fukushima, where Okazaki was born was at one point ruled by the Date clan who also ruled Iwate. Although I can't find any reference to an Iwate-ryu.

User5802 12:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Could Iwaga-Ryu be a mispelling of Iwama-Ryu? Wikipedia has an entry for this extinct aikido style.

198.212.208.14 (talk) 21:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Internment?
I have studied for 14 years in several schools of jujitsu which trace their lineage to Okazaki and the history I was taught was that he was briefly arrested and released. Okazaki had friends in high places--he was one of Roosevelt's favored physical therapists and was assisting some of his students in developing a hand-to-hand combat curriculum for the Army that eventually became Field manual FM-21-150. "Internment" is not consistent with the fact that the Evacuation Order (Executive Order 9066), eventually applied to about 1/3 of the continental US (by population) was never applied to Hawaii. As far as detention of any length, it looks like we have statements of his senior students saying he was taken in for questioning but never arrested and a Freedom of Information Act request showing no record of his detention vs. the recollection of his daughter Imi that she visited him "at least twice" in prison. Someone needs to research this question and find a most likely answer as to whether or not he was detained and if for how long. He was certainly not "interned" in the normal sense of being one of the classes subject to the evacuation order, being a minor child of someone subject to the evacuation order, or voluntarily accompanying relatives subject to the evacuation order. 12.10.223.247 02:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

EO9066 did not apply to Hawaii, only the mainland. Hawaii was under martial law after 12/7/41. Someone tried to assert that the military went to every Japanese household to coerce confessions to espionage in return for not being interned. This is absurd on its face. It would be interesting to find out some *real* facts about any detention of Okazaki, but they should be backed by actual documentation. Ungrounded rumor, hearsay, and flights-of-fancy should not be appended to this article. FM 21-150 has no DZR in it at all, as far as I can see. Rickerts appears in some Air Force H2H manuals of the 1950s, and they no doubt did plenty of H2H at the Army & Navy YMCA, but no DZR ended up in FM 21-150. (unsigned)

The Journal of Non-Lethal Combatives, August 2000 states that the "The American Judo Club" mentioned in FM 21-150 Section 1-5 is what later came to be called Danzan-ryu. Also check out the WWII entry at Danzan.com. It specifically names Sig Kufferath as playing a key role in FM 21-150. 216.9.182.249 (talk) 18:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Sig may have done a lot of H2H instructing during the war, but it never got into FM21-150. The most cursory examination of that manual reveals glaring inconsistencies w/ DZR practice. The history section mentions *only* Kano, not Okazaki, and the "American Judo Club"referred to was located in New York City (!) 128.111.228.101 (talk) 14:16, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Can you link to a published source that contradicts Journal of Non-Lethal Combatives article or Danzan.com or is that original research? 216.9.182.249 (talk) 06:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Errr... if "original research" means reading FM21-150 and understanding the plain meaning of the text, then yeah. It's available online; take a look for yourself. I've also corresponded with Joe Svinth on this matter. You might ask him his current views, if you're interested. 128.111.228.102 (talk) 08:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I started this subtopic in June 2007. The part about FM-21-150 was definitely in the tradition handed down to me (studied under John Nelson, HJS (Beach/Limbaugh), Shoshin Ryu (Medlin)). I recall both Nelson and Limbaugh saying this. I have now come to the conclusion that it is wrong and there is little to no DZR in FM-21-250. Meanwhile the article now states he was interned for 6 months! I was told arrested for two weeks. 208.115.147.120 (talk) 09:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Jujitsu America
Jujitsu America is one of the largest organizations for Danzan-ryu Jujitsu in the United States. Currently the administrators of Wikipedia are not allowing a link www.jujitsuamerica.org to be posted under this articles external links. In contrast, The International Judo Federation freely has an external link under Wikipedia's judo article judo. The explanations I have gotten from the members at Wikipedia, and it's Martial Arts Committee are:

1.) Danzan-ryu is a person not a style of Martial Art!

2.) Jujitsu America has nothing to do with Danzan-ryu.

3.) The Jujitsu America website was solely created to make money.

4.) Jujitsu America is trying to promote itself by having a link in Wikipedia.

Please respond to this posting and help allow external links to major Danzan-ryu organizations to be posted within this article.User5802 00:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This issue has been resolved. Jujitsu America may now have an external link in the article danzan-ryuUser5802 02:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Point #1 is incorrect. Danzan-Ryu is the name of the style invented by Henry Seishiro Okazaki as he stated in his 1929 book, "The Science of Self-Defense for Girls and Women." The term "ryu", meaning stream is also used in the Japanese language to mean sect or style.

Danzanryu (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)danzanryu

Yoshimatsu or Kichimatsu?
Which one is it?

For Yoshimatsu see here.

For Kichimatsu see here or HERE

For BOTH! (and an improper spelling) see here. User5802 01:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The kanji (from the mokuroku) could be pronounced either way. The interview on the Hawaii Judo History page was of an older Japanese, who knew Tanaka sensei. He gives the name as Kichimatsu. I believe that to be dispositive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.228.102 (talk) 06:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Okazaki's age
For a discussion on Okazaki's age see Talk:Seishiro_Okazaki. User5802 01:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It appears to be Nanpa, not Nanba or Namba
This is currently being discussed. Don't just change Nanpa without offering some sort of facts, and see the above discussion about the styles Okazaki studied which says


 * Here is some information gathered on Nanpa-Shoshin-ryu Jujitsu
 * A Mr. Sadao Sakamoto recalled there being a Nanpa-Shoshin Ryu Ju-Jitsu School active in Pepeekeo Hawaii, under the instruction of Mr. Hamai around 1918. This is exactly where and when Okazaki was studying Yoshin-Ryu Ju-Jitsu at the Hilo Shinyu-Kai in 1918. Most likely this is the source of Okazaki's Nanpa-Shoshin Ryu, there is no "Namba Shoshin Ryu" indeed.
 * link

User5802 01:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is likely just a romanization issue. Get the kanji, and you have the answer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.228.102 (talk • contribs)


 * Can you offer advice on how to get the kanji? User5802 11:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Do what I just did: look at the mokuroku. It can be found online on www.danzan.com , or in the appendix of the current AJJF Kata Manual. Or you could phone or write TJ and ask him to send you a copy. The kanji in question are Nelson #5038 which can be pronounced NAN or NANI (among others) and Nelson #2529 which can be pronounced HA or WA (among others). Plausible readings, then, would include either NANIWA or NANBA (NAMBA). The two-character compound is the name of a district of Osaka  . This suggests that Namba (or Nanba) Shoshin Ryu is/was a branch of Shoshin Ryu practiced in that region. I am editing the article accordingly. 128.111.228.102 13:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The characters are:  難波  128.111.228.102 13:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like some useful information. My guess would be the reporter spelled it incorrectly. What are your thoughts? Also do you have information on Iwaga-ryu or Kosogabe-ryu? User5802 11:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 岩賀 = IWAGA or IWAKA.   Name of a town in Niigata Prefecture.
 * 古曽我部  =  KOSOGABE;      SOGABE is a family surname, KO = old, ancient -- need to check the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten128.111.228.102 11:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The schools and associations list seems to be getting quite large.
Perhaps this be reduced, or certain associations should be removed. Any other thoughts? User5802 (talk) 16:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

==I think the list should restrict itself to organizations that teach & promote DZR *exclusively*, or at least DZR *primarily* alongside other supplementary practice methods. Cafeteria-style MA groups belong somewhere else, even if they were allegedly "influenced" by DZR. 128.111.228.102 (talk) 06:57, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

===I feel that the list needs to be moved to its own page, where the groups may be expanded upon if necessary. iamzander777 (talk) 18:18, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Ju-Jutsu not Ju-Jitsu
Can we work towards this standardization? "Jitsu" has a different meaning in Japanese. 198.212.208.14 (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

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World War II and later: Bud Estes
One source, at least, casts doubt on Bud Estes’ account of his work with the FBI: Bob McKean’s “The Life of Professor Francis Merlin (“Bud”) Estes.” Is this an outlier? Discredited? In any event, McKean’s criticism highlights the need for a citation at the end of the first paragraph. Jdickinson (talk) 06:22, 11 June 2022 (UTC)