Talk:Dark (TV series)/Archive 1

unsourced material in the "Background and influences" section
You are misunderstanding how we write articles at Wikipedia. You can't just say "this is an influence in the series," you have to cite a reliable source that talks about so-and-so being an influence. Wikipedia articles cannot serve as sources for other Wikipedia articles. You need to reference independent, third-party sources that back up, for example, the 33-year lunar cycle that is mentioned in the series. Anything else (i.e. any other statements that "explain" references in the show) is original research. As such, I will once again be removing the unsourced statements from this section. —Joeyconnick (talk) 01:16, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Plot summary size
Who gets to decide whether a summary is too long and all those box warnings?Eschoryii (talk) 01:55, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Governed by MOS:TVPLOT: basically, should be 200 words or less per episode. —Joeyconnick (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The episode summaries have been flagged as being too long for more than two weeks now. Someone who is familiar with this show needs to find a way to write more concise summaries. Whovian99 (talk) 17:55, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I just finished the series -- hoo man. Highly recommend, but that's beside the point: it'll be hard to whittle down the summaries. The episodes follow several time periods, each with their own respective subplots, so I fully understand the length of the plot summaries. That being said, I'll try and shave off what I can. ɯ ɐ ɔ  💬 04:54, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Other shows with complex plots encompassing multiple time periods or locations (such as Lost or Game of Thrones) don’t have the same problem. The summary in the episode table need not cover everything that happened.Whovian99 (talk) 10:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * While my English keeps getting worse by each year, I’ve summarized the summaries to 200 words tops. Could still use some more polishing though. —Pyy (talk) 17:12, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your work, the summaries are much better now. 2001:8003:4475:E900:4135:C0DA:C9B4:23F5 (talk) 05:54, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Comparison to Stranger Things
The comparisons made to Stranger Things have been somewhat controversial. Anyone who wants to discuss this issue before editing the page should do so here. Whovian99 (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe it should be moved simply because the first thing you see about any show shouldn't be a direct comparison to another one that has very little in common with expect if it is a sequel, reboot or spin-off of course. After watching both shows here is my opinion about what they have in common-> basically both are dramas with fantasy elements and a missing kid at the start. My suggestion is remove this sentence 'Positive and negative comparisons were made to the Netflix series Stranger Things.[4][5][6]' and place it in the Reception subsection. Diegom2602 (talk) 04:39, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Seconded. ɯ ɐ ɔ  💬 02:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * While I agree that the shows ultimately don’t really have all that much in common with Stranger Things, it’s not my opinion (or yours) that matters. Almost every single review of this show I’ve read have mentioned Stranger Things, the creators themselves have mentioned the similarities and the YouTube comments on the trailer video indicate the public sees the similarities. The same logic was used to compare The OA with Stranger Things in 2016.Whovian99 (talk) 11:04, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Whovian99, Hence why Diegom2602 suggested moving it to just the Reception section rather than right up front in the lede. :) While RSes have mentioned a comparison with SThings, Diegom's point is that it really doesn't fit in the lede where it more-or-less doesn't fit in a short description of this show. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 10:10, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Negative opinion in Reception
"However, there was some criticism..."

This really should be clarified. It lends the impression that there is several like-minded critiques by several critics. But in reality, it's the single opinion of a one Glenn Garvin- a sometime TV writer, sometime contemporary historian, writing on behalf of Reason.com, a US libertarian monthly (according to Wikipedia)

Could the editor who originally inserted this add more critiques from more critics in accord with Glenn Garvin's notions of "heavy-handed," "unoriginal," and lack of "sympathetic characters."

Or just amend it to: "Glenn Garvin from Reason.com made some criticism of its heavy-handed approach etc..." Pounamuknight (talk) 10:24, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Name Origins
Is there any info on the characters names? I'm going to speculate here "for example", wondering if there is any supported sourcing? Adam - the first man - considers himself the cause of it all Jonas - fails to heed god and causes everyone else woe Noah - survives the apocalypse with 7 others Doppler - double? doppler effect? Tiedeman - time man Nielsen - Nil son, nobody's son? Feldercarb (talk) 18:03, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

origin/nationality
Hi... in response to the edit-warring... this is clearly a co-production between the German and Netflix teams. Shouldn't we treat it like Travelers (TV series) and list it as a German-American (or American-German) international co-production by Wiedemann & Berg Television from Germany and Netflix from the US? Or just a web series that is an "international co-production"? —Joeyconnick (talk) 23:53, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes we should. Changing now. See Talk:The Crown (TV series)/Archive 2 for an unnecessarily long discussion that eventually sets another precedent for this. U-Mos (talk) 09:15, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Sensible discussion is surely preferable to conflict - so here's the logic. This is a series set in Germany, part of the European Union. German and English (British, or European, English, naturally) are both key official languages of the EU. US English is not. US English may well be relevant to the company which produces the programme, and would arguably be appropriate to use in an article about Netflix itself as an entity - but it is not appropriate for the world in which the drama is set. Travelers is set in the USA, so it would be similarly inappropriate to use European English in article about that show, notwithstanding the involvement of a German company behind the scenes. It seems a fairly straightforward distinction to me. HughEverPulsatingBrainThatRulesFromTheCentreOfTheUltraworld (talk) 22:40, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Brief copy-edit and spellings
A really interesting article, which has certainly tempted me to watch the series! I have added a a brief copy edit to reflect the norms of both German and European English. 'Nothing too profound - a few missing punctuation elements and a few stray American spellings had crept in - but as another editor initially undid those corrections, hopefully this note explains why. For more on why Germany uses the English spoken/written in neighbouring Britain, see [Languages of the European Union]. HughEverPulsatingBrainThatRulesFromTheCentreOfTheUltraworld (talk) 09:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)


 * We're possibly at risk of a to-and-fro here about the spelling of a single word, instalment. Several updates of the article have incorrectly added a second L, which of course would only be appropriate for a US-specific article - which this clearly isn't. It's just a single letter, so probably not worth getting into a major disagreement about, but for consistency it matters.HughEverPulsatingBrainThatRulesFromTheCentreOfTheUltraworld (talk) 07:17, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I think this article should be tagged with Use British English as Germany and many other European related articles are. Then English spelling can be enforced on this article. —Bruce1eetalk 06:56, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * That sounds sensible to me. Perhaps we need a tag which says Use European English - it's not a US vs. UK issue, after all. HughEverPulsatingBrainThatRulesFromTheCentreOfTheUltraworld (talk) 15:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * There isn't a template for "European English" (see here). But there is EngvarB, which is for non-specific but not N. American spelling. But note that, for example, Germany and France are both tagged with Use British English. —Bruce1eetalk 17:53, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Understood - for these purposes, then, European English is referred to by Wikipedia as British English. That becomes less diplomatic when applied to the English spoken in Ireland, of course, but shouldn't be an issue for this article. I'd say go ahead and apply the tag. HughEverPulsatingBrainThatRulesFromTheCentreOfTheUltraworld (talk) 07:12, 22 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Done – I've added Use British English to the article. —Bruce1eetalk 07:23, 22 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I rewrote the sentence now. I hope that fixes the edit war. Although a native speaker might want to find a more elegant wording than I did. Cheers. 195.112.95.126 (talk) 15:15, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I think your wording is fine, and it will, as you said, stop that spelling edit war. —Bruce1eetalk 15:41, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Three generations or four?
I haven't watched the show, and can't find a good source elsewhere, but the article is inconsistent on whether the events of the series span three generations or four. Seems worth a look.73.186.89.155 (talk) 22:14, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Netflix (US?) gives 3 generations (from proxied [kproxy.com] Netflix series page). This could also help in count (grandparents - 3rd generation).
 * It's at least two generations (33+33=66/30=2.2). But since the Spheres also exist (no limitation on time jump), and multiple loops can occur (when someone travels to the past to change something, does the geneartion count goes up?), it's really hard to tell. MarMi wiki (talk) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

why the "Stranger things" comment is necessary?
I disagree there's anything that links those two tv shows, besides they're produced by Netflix. If anyone checks the Dark webpage in german, you'll see no-one is mentioning this comparison. I think demerits the brilliant work that it has been made in this very complex show, and ST is not even close to the excellence this one has. Actually, this description might stop from curious viewers to watch it, so it's bad publicity for this amazing tv show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Focaaccia (talk • contribs) 09:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe we should delete since "Manny critics [...]" because the Reception section don't saya that. About the ST thing, I am agree it's unnecessary in lead since the comparission was just to the first season and It wasn't the only show that Dark was compared with. Why only Stranger Things is mentioned in the lead?? Miaow  00:17, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Bernd Doppler as Regina's father
The last scene of the last episode opens with a shot of a photo showing Claudia and Regina with Bernd Doppler. This Vulture article concludes that Bernd is Regina's father. Are there any German-language sources that also make this conclusion? — howcheng  {chat} 19:05, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * According to the family tree on the oficial page in darknetflix.io, Bernd Doppler is Regina's father.  Miaow  19:10, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, so we should get the family tree images updated to say that. Or at least the season 3 ones since it's not revealed until the very end. — howcheng  {chat} 19:16, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Mikkel/Michael
In the Main Characters section, should Mikkel and Michael be listed as one character? (They're currently under separate entries.) If not, some mention should at least be made in their character descriptions that they are the same person. Noahfgodard (talk) 04:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Done Llewee (talk) 09:51, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Splitting the article
This show has 3 seasons, it would make sense to move the list of episodes to its own article, as is the custom for shows with more than 1 or 2 seasons. MrEvers (talk) 21:27, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Except it will never have more than 3 seasons, so splitting it makes no sense (unless it meets the length requirement). —Joeyconnick (talk) 17:35, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Support splitting into Dark (season 1), Dark (season 2) and Dark (season 3). The plot descriptions alone fulfill the length requirement, and we can move the family tree and music of each season to each season's article. intforce (talk) 16:20, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose – again, the season content is unlikely to get any longer and this definitely does not meet WP:SPLIT requirements. The prose size is only 12KB. And most of the plot summaries for s2 and s3 are VASTLY over-long (see MOS:TVPLOT). —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry... the script I used didn't count table text. But with 26 episodes total at 200 words per summary, that only just reaches the WP:SPLIT minimum. So there's 12KB + about 50KB total, so 62-ish KB. That does not by any means support the creation of separate season articles. —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:55, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm more or less neutral when it comes to creating a new article for the list of episodes, although I don't think it would be necessary. That said, I strongly oppose the creation of three new articles, as that seems entirely unnecessary. Noahfgodard (talk) 15:15, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose - as stated above, the character count does not meet the WP:SPLIT requirements. Dividing the seasons into separate articles will only make it harder for the reader. Socratides (talk) 18:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Main Character table should show who is what when
This is a time travel centered story, so it is very useful to know that, for example, "Jonas the teen, the high school student struggling with his father's suicide. Martha's love interest" exists in 2019 and coexists with "Mikkel the child, Ulrich and Katharina's youngest child, who goes missing in 2019 and emerges in 1986" as opposed to Mikkel the adult.

So I [| added a new Plot Timeline column] with the intention of populating it as I binge watched the show. It got reverted as "not useful here" by @Intforce. I would appreciate further explanation about why it's not useful here, or where it would be useful.

There are other alternatives, such as another table or set of tables that show the information for each of the time periods in the timeline. But would be very redundant.

Another alternative is a time line chart showing all the time jumps by who and at what age, but I don't have the time or skills to create that :P.

Billybass (talk) 18:12, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The section in question is about the cast and characters. There is already a column with the life stage. The first paragraph contains information about the years. In my opinion, another column is not needed. intforce (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Example: I am watching the fifth episode right now. Noah visits Mikkel in the hospital in 1986. Thus the "adult" Noah in the current table corresponds to 1986, whereas "child" Mikkel originates in 2019 but travels back to 1986 (when the meeting with Noah takes place), and "adult" Mikkel also corresponds to 2019, the year he commits suicide. Associating the "life stage" to a time period makes it clearer who is what life stage when, contemporaneously with who else is what when. It's a good stand-in for a time chart. Billybass (talk) 01:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Episode end credits also list actors / characters by year. Billybass (talk) 04:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Survivors (Season 3, episode 8)
"The only main characters who remain in the origin world are those who do not have blood ties to the rest of the family: Hannah, Katharina, Peter, Regina and the Wöller siblings."

This seems wrong: Hannah is the mother of Jonas, so she has "blood ties with the rest of the family" (which presumably means the desendants of the Unknown). It's probably more accurate to say that "the only characters who remain in the origin world are those who were not born as a result of time travel". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stassa (talk • contribs) 17:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Endings and Beginnings (Season 2, episode 8)
"In 2053, Elisabeth turns on the machine, simultaneously as Magnus and Franziska do so in 1921." This seems nonsensical. "Simultaneously" means "at the same time", yet the two events mentioned happen 132 years apart. Perhaps the phrase could be, instead, "In 2053, Elisabeth turns on the machine, 132 years after Magnus and Franziska did the same in 1921."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cojocard (talk • contribs) 01:43, 15 January 2022 (UTC)