Talk:Dartford/Archive 1

Spamming
Could you stop spamming this page please, or we will have no choice but to block you, or protect this page. Also, please sign your comments like this? We do not want an edit war on our hands.- ~ bruce89 16:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If your editors/admins were more competent then we would not even be in this situation. Though I've taken onboard the comment about adding the ~ . 88.109.54.153 17:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Stealth vandalism
I have removed a large number of disparaging fake facts, presumable written by students at Dartford Grammar School, since they mainly are aimed at two specific teachers at the school. As a former student, they made me chuckle, but they are gone now anyway. Some sentences I can't tell whether they are vandalism or not, so i've loaded the article with citation needed tags. The article as a whole is in pretty bad shape, as a resident i think i can probably sort it out, bear with me. Jdcooper 13:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

WHY DO THE COMMENTS ABOUT LOCAL PHILANTHROPIST JESUS LEPINE KEEP BEING REMOVED? TAKE A LOOK ON WIKIPEDIA FOR MORE INFORMATION!!

"Jesus Lepine, a local philanthropist, housed many of the Belgian immigrants throughout the 1980s and 1990s. 1. Unfortunately as of June 2006, he has been placed on the Sex Offenders Register for a string of offences against young boys 2".


 * Yeah, look I went to DGS as well, Lepine taught me, hes a weird guy, we all get it. The golden rule of Wikipedia Vandalism is: Only do it once, the second time it stops being funny (if it was in the first place) and just makes you look stupid .Jdcooper 16:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not go to DGS, as you call it. I don't understand your comments about vandalism, I have backed up what I have said with citations/sources. I do hope this won't develop into a flame war.


 * Grow up child. No you havn't backed up anything with your random links. And no, this won't turn into a flame war. You'll just get reverted then blocked. So simple. --LiamE 16:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have substantiated my claims, by including relevant sources. For further clarification perhaps you could visit this webpage: . I think you should outline why you have removed the corrections I made to this article, as of yet you have failed to do so. Now you are removing my comments on the discussion page as well. What sort of establishment is this? I'm not about to launch an attack on Wikipedia, but how uncalled for are these retractions? It's obvious to myself and the countless other individuals who read this (if it is not retracted!) that, because I am unregistered, my comments (underwritten with rock-solid proof I might add) are regarded as worthless. How disgusting. 88.109.54.153 16:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think a link to the Irn-Bru website is going to help your obviously flawed arguements. Register if you want.  bruce89 16:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you could outline to me why the comments have been withdrawn? 88.109.54.153 17:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Which comments are these anyway? Referencing Dell and Irn Bru is not valid for your arguements.  bruce89 17:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please don't feed the troll, Bruce. --LiamE 17:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, cope with it yourself then. bruce89 17:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, that is the end to that then! I doubt LiamE could converse with an amoeba. But you can always prove me wrong -- why were the comments on Jesus Lepine removed? I have added sources and citations throughout my posts, and have been posting on Wikipedia for some time now. Very disappointed. 88.109.54.153 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Dell, Irn-Bru and GoogleSightSeeing are not references for this comment, so your arguements are flawed because of it. Also if you really were a long time contributer, you would have registered.  Also, it seems you have been here since 16:23 today only. bruce89 17:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, that is incredible. I guess you identify users by their IP address. But you are wrong, I have been posting on Wikipedia for at least six months. I have never registered because I do not see the point. Anyway, I digress. This is going no where. 88.109.54.153 17:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Registered are less likely to get their edits removed, as they are trusted more. I suggest, if you want to contribute further, register.  Anyway I am fed up with arguing now, so I will go away from this page.  FYI, I have been contributing since December 2004.  bruce89 17:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Pocohontas Resident?
Isn't it a bit tenuous to list Pochontas as a Notable Resident? As I understand it, she died on a boat which happened to be passing Gravesend, and was buried there, in Gravesend, a town which isn't Dartford. Dw290 16:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wat Tyler is pushing it too. To the best of me knowledge, Broxley is near Maidstone. The Wat Tyler pub in Dartford is (supposedly)named for where Wat Tyler camped on his way to Blackheath. Why would he camp outside a town he lived in? Perhaps Dartford should list everyone that passed through and be done with it. --LiamE 09:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The plaque on the Wat Tyler claims that Wat Tyler drank in an inn on the site on his way through (obviously it is quite likely that he didn't, but such is the claim). Tyler is claimed as a resident of Dartford as well as of Maidstone (and various other towns) - primarily I think from John_Stow's history that refers to a "John Tyler of Dartford" as leading the revolt. Ajwells 15:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Same with Kenneth Noye, he was from West Kingsdown which is another place altogether.81.149.178.248 15:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

To-do list
To-do list, from peer-review discussion, please strike-through when you've sorted something out:


 * Improve leader paragraph (See WP:LEAD).
 * Add geography section discussing climate and weather.
 * Politics section discussing local government and council.
 * Culture section.
 * Expand all two-line sections in particular.
 * Clean-up sub-sections, they are for organising large amounts of information, not obligatory.
 * Communications section renamed to Transport.
 * Population needs to be merged into "Demographics" and the section expanded respectively.
 * Include notable places.
 * Notable people should be on of the last things on the page.
 * Include good references.
 * Create articles for red links:
 * Dartford paper mills
 * Geoffrey Box
 * Dartford Technology College
 * Wilmington Grammar School
 * Wilmington Grammar School for Girls

Jdcooper 11:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Knights Templar
What kind of info on Knights Templar?
 * Temple Hill was named for Knights Templar, and I remember hearing that they had something of a history with the town, but I can't find anything at the moment, so I suppose there isn't anything that important. I'll remove it from the list, unless I turf up anything else in my reading. Jdcooper 15:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I found on a web-site that these following locations are possible Knights Templar properties:
 * Littlebrook Manor Way, Kent, Templars Court, DA1 5AD
 * Temple Hill, DA1 5HX
 * Temple Hill Square, DA1 5HY
 * Website: http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/South_East.htm

Hope this helps, T saston 22:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * According to British History on Line (www.british-history.ac.uk) the manor of Dartford, inter alia, belonged to the Knights Templar. The National Trust Property at Sutton-at-Hone was a commandery of the Knights Hospitaller. The connection of the town with the Knights would explain any reference to them (ie "Temple", "Templar") as above; although the places given above are all part of a post war housing development. The historical connection is surely very tenuous? Peter Shearan 19:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Knights Templar had a temple on Temple Hill. I beleive that they also at one time owned the manor. Haven't got any referenced to hand but this is all mentioned in Dartford Museum.: (195.171.106.3 (talk) 11:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC))

Infobox Image.
I think the infobox map should be the UK one, as the article is Dartford, Kent not Dartford, London, but I would like to hear other editors opinion. MortimerCat 22:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Education
Should any lists of primary schools be added to this section, however it may contradict the to do list at top of page and the numbers of schools may make it too lengthy! Any ideas? T saston 00:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that kind of information belongs in the Dartford article, there is probably a list of schools in Kent somewhere where that information would fit better, otherwise as you say it would be an over-long list ill-fitting to the article. Jdcooper 12:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Also...
I saw on the Hollywood Sign page that there is a replica or imitation of it in Dartford, apparently at Crossways Business Park. I've definetly seen one around Dartford Bridge but any photo or text to confirm this may be helpful. T saston 01:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

River Darent
In spite of the long explanation in the Geological section, the River Darent is not the result of the Wealden uplift in the way described. What it should have said is that the river (like the Medway and the Stour) were there before the uplift, and that, as it rose, the rivers cut down so that now they make their way through the resultant valleys. Chalk simply lets the water through it and therefore has no rivers flowing down its flanks. I cannot see, in any case why the lengthy essay on all the other rocks comes into it. Dartford Heath can be explained by the presence of the Blackheath Pebble Beds (one of the Thames Gravel Terraces, which are evident all down the Thames - at Shorne near Gravesend, for example). I don't have the geological book to hand, but it should be possible for a geologist to make these facts clear Peter Shearan 20:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm to blame for that information I fear, i found it here (Mark Chatwin's history of Dartford) and knowing nothing of geology, included it without a strict editorial rigour. Jdcooper (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

On a point of information (in case you did not find the book) the Blackheath beds are not one of the Thames terraces (Pleistocene) - they are Palaeocene, i.e. older than the London Clay. Pterre (talk) 20:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Photographs
I have just done commons:Category:Gravesend- as soon as the weather is good enough again I'll make an expedition to Darford. Though someone else can tackle Dartford Heath! ClemRutter (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I can sort out Dartford Heath, my friend lives on the road overlooking it, but I won't be moving back to Dartford til mid December. I think I have quite a lot of photos of Dartford town centre anyway, I'll see if I can find them. Jdcooper (talk) 20:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Dartford Community Church
Does indeed meet on Shepherds Lane on Sundays, but they hire the Mick Jagger Centre to do so, and it seems somewhat inappropriate list what is primarily a music venue amongst the list of churches. Dartford Community Church are better listed with reference to their meeting hall on Dartford Road Ajwells (talk) 12:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Notable people
I have reordered the list here. It seems unnecessary to include details already on each individual article, so it makes the list clearer; I have added birth etc dates to show when they exist/ed; and a couple of people don't seem to have any connection with Dartford (or perhaps it isn't obvious from their own articles?). Glen Johnson is one; and the other is Pete Tong whose article clearly states he was born in Hartley, which might be in the local government district, but not in Dartford town. Wat Tyler is mentioned above, and Richard Trevithick died penniless at the Bull hotel. I guess John Spilman should be included, and others mentioned in the text, but I'll add them as I come across them. Can anyone find any others - preferably from an earlier age than DJs et al!

I am hoping to give the article a thorough going over, if no-one objects, and it doesn't tread on anyone's toes? Peter Shearan (talk) 16:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Support changes, section looks much better now. Jdcooper (talk) 17:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to re-instate Glen Johnson into notable people. He was raised on Temple Hill (obviously I can't mention the road). I work in the Temple Hill area and he went back to visit the Primary school just last week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.9.240 (talk) 10:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I am getting a little concerned about the plethora of media personalities that have been included- should the list be divided into the living and the dead- or BBC employees and the rest? Comments please?ClemRutter (talk) 10:15, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If Dartford has proven itself a prolific breeding ground for a certain type of famous person, then maybe that is an interesting fact that the article should reflect? I think, rather, that this is a symptom of wikipedia's recentism, ie, there are presumably many famous old types from Dartford, given its historic nature, but they just dont have articles, or their hometowns arent included on wikipedia. I think we should try and add more of them rather than taking off people or divvying up the list. As long as we keep it to blue links I favour a holistic list. Jdcooper (talk) 19:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Work in progress
I have got the bit between my teeth now! At the moment I am finding that, as I go along, things seem to slot better into other sections than they were already in. There needs to be more about general (as opposed to industrial) history now; and I have to write a piece about the geographical aspects of the town. My recollection of writing essays for geography exams is that a prime part of it the location, and the makeup of the town should be included, so I'm working on that. I have short list of cultural activities (I've taken the article Culture as a guide to what can be included, it has religion as one aspect). I never quite see the reason for list called "Nearest Places" - why for example should Barnes Cray be included? I'll delete it as long as no-one can come up with a reason for not doing so Peter Shearan (talk) 09:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Dogging
While trying to remove the POV- that this was an ideal spot, I checked the references. http://www.doggersweb.co.uk/index.cgi?do=info_faq http://www.swinger-personals.co.uk/Kent-dogging.html Neither of these sites mention Dartford. The BBC article that refers is a political correct police response to an accusation by a homophobic elected member, mollified and represented by a Dartford Council Officer. It refers to a PC's PC POV- rather than a fact. So again I have removed the statement as I don't believe the reference is reliable.ClemRutter (talk) 11:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This story, if it is the one you are referring to, contains a quotation from a Dartford Council spokesman stating that they have had problems with dogging on Dartford Heath, quite unequivocally. Dogging is nothing to do with homosexuality, a fact which is also contained in the quote. I am highly doubtful that I would not be able to find many more sources, given the strong association the site has earned for itself with public sexhibitionism (though I'm happy for the speculation as to why this would be to be removed, I didn't realise that that was POV, but it clearly is). As I've said before, while it is important to note the significance of the Heath as an open space, and mention the bird, in the interests of balance we should keep the dogging thing as well (I'll find some references when I next get back to a computer in an eyes-open state), since that is what would spring to mind first for many people. In general I believe it is bad form to remove sourced info just because it is uncouth; many people I know would regard Dartford itself as fairly uncouth these days. Jdcooper (talk) 00:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am totally open- as whether or not it stays or goes. I only got involved in this spat because I was looking for a picture of the Dartford Warbler! Yes if it is notable it should be there, I looked for further references to prove it was 'well known' but can no longer get a reference from what appear to be the two enthusiast sites. ( I did gain enough info to write an article 'Dogging in Kent- which I am not about to do just yet- and also find a site walking distance from my home!). Looking back at the BBC article- it struck me that it was without weight- one of the duties on a Local Government Officer is to give quotes to KM and BBC that will kill a story- without saying 'Councillor Bloggs is just plain barking' it struck me that this story contained elements of that.
 * But it appears that doggers do move on when the location of their spot becomes too well known.


 * From reading further Goggle Dogging Dartford Heath- h-ttp://-www.-thebestof.-co.-uk/dartford/news/37284 (triggers the spam filter- remove -) seems to explain what is going on and ties it to a quote from Howard Stoates. By anecdote- Open Air sex was in the past well known on the heath ( like most heaths I surmise). The police produces a draft report which was leaked to Gravesham and Dartford councils (April 2007) - which suggested possible permissive areas- location uncertain. This was not well received. KM, Newshopper- took the wrong end of the stick- public outcry. Howard made a quote. (I don't know if his office he had researched it or if he was caught off guard).


 * So from that I think that we could put together a few non POV sentences, that mention the police report and fit in with the new style.

ClemRutter (talk) 12:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * What is that spam filter rubbish!? And why did it not give me the chance to remove them before wiping out my response. Anyway, I was going to propose using the bbc article which quotes a Dartford Council spokesman as saying "a significant number of the problems we encounter in places like Dartford Heath .. [involve].. activities like dogging" coupled with the stories you mentioned above to demonstrate that Dartford Heath had an established reputation, then people could always google the search terms to find the plethora of sites bigging dartford heath up in that regard if they didnt believe it, even though im sure wikipedia doesnt regard them as reliable sources. However, i guess we cant use stories from that site now either. But we still have a pretty unambiguous quotation from a council spokesman quoted by the BBC. So with regards to the article, how about:

"In recent years Dartford Heath has acquired a reputation as being a dogging hotspot. In 2007 rumours even spread that Kent Police were considering designating the heath as a "safe-haven" for such activities, which provoked complaint from Dartford Council despite assurances from Kent Police that the proposals were still at the consultation phase.[ref - bbc]"

what would anybody dispute about that? Jdcooper (talk) 16:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I've found this, and there are numerous other News Shopper articles about it, listed here. Jdcooper (talk) 16:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I have been propositioned on more than one occassion by homosexuals whilst walking through that part of the heath so I would say it definately is true, but then that's just my word: (195.171.106.3 (talk) 12:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC))

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:37, 1 May 2016 (UTC)