Talk:Dartmouth College/Archive 1

Cleaner Page
I think this talk page should really be cleaned up. There's a lot of threads here that no one has added to in years and/or no longer have relevance. Thoughts? Nicolasdz 08:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Interview
I'm going for an interview with an Dartmouth alum tomorrow. Any tips? What kind of good things or interesting stuff should I say about Dartmouth?


 * I'm a Dartmouth student (class of 2008), feel free to e-mail me (go to my user page and 'Email this user') with any questions about interviews, general Dartmouth stuffs, etc. However, the talk page on Wikipedia here is not the forum to ask. I reverted the garbage that other users have put on here in reply (and arguably, in vandalism). --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 03:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
I'd like to get this article cleaned up to FA status.--AaronS 01:50, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Conservative student body
Dartmouth's student body isn't exactly liberal, but they're no Bob Jones U. Mostly, they gets a bad rep from things like the Dartmouth Review and Dinesh D'Sousa.

Actually, they are slightly left of center, which puts them firmly in camp of Churchill and Reagan compared to the Trotskies and Lenins of Brown and Yale (and the Gorbachevs of Harvard!).

This is absurd - the student body, like any northeastern liberal arts school, is painfully liberally biased. The only difference is that Dartmouth as a vocal and nearly violent conservative minority and a desire throughout by most to be seen as "moderate." The idea that the student body is "conservative" or "slightly left of center" is simply a misrepresentation. This place would make the most tried and true liberals proud - it's just perhaps a little more tolerant of conservatism than somewhere else might be due to certain undercurrents of the campus.

I am a current Dartmouth student, and I recently completed a survey of Dartmouth undergraduates on their political/economic and social ideologies. 33% of Dartmouth undergrads are political/economic conservatives, while 25% are social conservatives. And the survey met all the standards of accuracy and impartiality, as it was for a statistics course (if hadn't met the standard, I would have failed). - '09

Religious affiliation
How about discussion of religious affiliation?


 * What religious affiliation? Dartmouth doesn't have one now, but do you mean the religious affiliations of the college founder?


 * Oh, I was just aware that at one time it had a religious affiliation because some famous person (whose name escapes me at the moment) jokingly blamed his dismissal from the university on his skipping mandatory religious services. Kent Wang 22:28, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * lots of colleges without religious affiliations used to have mandatory chapel. Doops 12:56, 21 May 2004 (UTC)


 * When did it officially stop being Congregational? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 00:33, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) Hmmm... the 1911 Britannica says "It is Congregational in its affiliations, but is actually non-sectarian." Whatever that means. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 00:35, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Dartmouth certainly predates the existence of the organization called the Congregational church; but when it was founded, it was certainly part and parcel of the whole New England puritan establishment, which over the course of time became the Congregational Church (today merged in the UCC). So at no time was it anything like the various colleges founded in the 19th century by various organized churches and run by them &mdash; but it was certainly de facto Puritan; and then Congregationalist; and then, gradually, nothing at all. I doubt that we could pick any one date. In some sense, it never had a formal affiliation with the Congregational church (and I doubt whether it ever had any religious test for entry, even in the early theocratic days); in another sense, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that, to this day, a Congregationalist minister is always hired to run the college chapel, for the sake of tradition. Doops 05:45, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Photo
This page needs a decent picture -- the green, the library, Dartmouth Hall. –– wwoods 08:19, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, do you have any? Best solution to otherwise-complicated copyright and rights issues is for a contributor takes the photo him- or herself. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:11, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I added a photo of the Baker library on 18 June 2004 after this request was made. -Redjar 12:58, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If I get around to joining or anything, there are much better photos of Baker than on a slightly cloudy day to attach to the article.

Please leave the current picture. It's just as I remember Baker. BrianGCrawfordMA 23:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

BuzzFlood
The BuzzFlood webpage is a stunningly creative site. And a boon to Dartmouth (www.buzzflood.org). Lots of Dartmout related news.

Dartmouth Night
"In 1904, the Earl of Dartmouth his companion, visited the campus on Dartmouth Night with the young Winston Churchill, and marched around the Green with the students."
 * Which Earl--the then-Earl, or the future 7th Earl?
 * &mdash;wwoods 00:27, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Now it says
 * "In 1904, the Earl of Dartmouth visited the campus on Dartmouth Night with New Hampshire legislator Winston Churchill and marched around the Green with the students."


 * This needs clarification or correction. Is that the Winston Churchill, or a NH guy?
 * &mdash;wwoods 20:57, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--I think it's clear. "The Earl" might be presumed to refer to the Earl at the time, since there have been Earls since 1711. Incidentally, it was William Heneage Legge, the 6th Earl. --The point of noting that Churchill was a New Hampshire (USA) legislator is to clarify that he was not "the" Churchill.

Animal House
I don't want to do it right now, in the heat of the recent flap, and am hardly the best person to do it in any case.

But at some point somebody really ought to add something to this article noting that the 1978 motion picture Animal House credits Chris Miller, Dartmouth '62, as a screenwriter. The movie was adapted from a series of stories he contributed to the National Lampoon which concerned an outlaw fraternity. Miller has said that the stories were very loosely based on his experiences in Alpha Delta Phi. Any discussion of this should, of course, be properly NPOVed and accompanied by statements that I have not bothered to locate but which I am sure exist, in which the Dartmouth fraternity system doubtless says that it is not like that now and was not really like that then... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 20:51, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, it is surprising to me that none of the Dartmouth folks wrote an article about the background and history of Dartmouth "Greek" life in general. It seems that fraternities are more important at Dartmouth than at other Ivy League schools; I wonder why? Were there other-than-social-factors? A reluctance of Dartmouth administration to build dormitories? A shortage of rental housing in this relatively small town? Apparently in 1999 or thereabouts there was very serious talk by the Dartmouth administration of abolishing single-sex living groups; I can't seem to find out exactly what the upshot was. Maybe we have an article on fraternities and sororities in general that touches on this. Do I understand correctly that there is a Dartmouth tradition that fraternity parties are open to all? Does this mean that any old stranger (e.g. F. Scott Fitzgerald) can just wander in and drink free booze? This all seems like an interesting, controversial, and legitimate topic that is more-or-less specific to Dartmouth. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:16, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Regarding parties being open... As a resident of the area, it's been my experience that most of the Fraternity parties are quite open, and they expect at a lot of students that aren't fraternity members to join in the fun. Heck, I'm been to a few parties at Dartmouth Frats, and I've never been a student, and am starting to look well older than your average student as well.  Kaszeta 12:41, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I thought they were only open part of the year. I've been to Dartmouth a few times, and one time in particular I seem to remember the frats being closed to non-members, the reason given being related to the time of the year.  Then again, that might have been because there weren't supposed to actually be frat parties at that time of the year. In any case, since we aren't supposed to be doing original research, I'm not sure how being a Dartmouth student is going to help you write any of this.  Anything added should be documented in other sources first anyway. anthony (see warning) 12:52, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The parties are definitely open. There are some houses that are more exclusive than others, but if you have any idea what you're doing, you can waltz into a house any night of the week and get free booze.  If there's an actual party, far more often than not it'll be entirely open.  Sometimes they'll ask for Dartmouth IDs, but a lot of the time there's not even anyone at the door.  As a matter of what they SAY, then they probably wouldn't allow just anyone in; but as a matter of practice, people turn a blind eye to most of it, if not welcome them.  It adds a certain flair to the night to have a forty year old (alum or not) join in a game of beer pong.


 * The only time frats are "closed" are really only when they have meetings. Otherwise they really only screen who comes in when they're having an invite-only "tails" (cocktails) night.--Osprey39 09:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge?
Please, can some "wired" DC fellow figure out how to merge those articles, like the two swimming ones that are now cleaned up, and how to capitalize the title "C" in college on one of them? Thanks.Sfahey 20:59, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Graduates/Attendees
No particular order... just off the top of my head here. Daniel Webster Nelson Rockefeller Jack Ryan (Senate candidate) Angus King Sylvanus Thayer Alden Partridge Dr. Seuss Fred Rogers Jeffrey Immelt Louis Gerstner

The Motto
Just some personal checks on the various English translations of the Dartmouth motto in the bible.


 * King James:
 * Isiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness
 * Matthew 3:3/Mark1:3/Luke3:4 The voice of one crying in the wilderness
 * John 1:23 I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness


 * English Standard:
 * Isiah 40:3 A voice cries: "In the wilderness...
 * Matthew 3:3/Mark1:3/Luke3:4  The voice of one crying in the wilderness
 * John 1:23 I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness


 * New International:
 * Isiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert...
 * Matthew 3:3/Mark1:3/Luke3:4 A voice of one calling in the desert
 * John 1:23 I am the voice of one calling in the desert

On a page on the Dartmouth website, I came across this:
 * The College motto ("a voice crying out in the wilderness") comes from the 40th chapter of
 * the Book of Isaiah in the Old Testament. The "voice" represents the voice of religion in
 * the darkness of the unsettled wilderness. Eleazar selected this motto because he
 * considered the primary mission of his school to be teaching the natives about
 * Christianity.

I think maybe that is the translation that should appear in the article.--Osprey39 19:06, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The motto isn't the English phrase, or the Bible's Greek original, or the abstract Biblical concept. The motto is the Latin phrase "Vox clamantis in deserto"; that's what we're translating. (Of course there are multiple ways of doing this; options 1, 2, 5, & 8 above are all acceptable.) Doops | talk 20:47, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I changed the translation of the motto to the more literal, "the voice of one crying out in the wilderness." "Clamantis" is clearly a genitive, not a nominative. It does not agree in case with "vox."

"One of the most prestigious colleges in the world"
I've (again) removed the phrase "regarded as one of the most prestigous colleges in the world" from the lead paragraph. I suspect the anon is trolling, but, for what it's worth, if the statement comes back in that wording I'm going to slap an NPOV notice on the page.

Simply by noting that a college is a member of the Ivy League, you have established that it is
 * of extremely high academic caliber;
 * both academically and socially prestigious;
 * by U. S. standards, of historic age and significance.

90% of readers will understand this instantly and the rest can read the article about the Ivy League.

66.245.86.251's comment that "Cornell is a member of the ivy league and they are not prestigious" is ridiculous. If Cornell does not have prestige, what they have will do until the real thing comes along. I don't want to get into debates over whether Cornell is more or less prestigious than Dartmouth. But I'll venture that a) Cornell is less prestigious than Harvard and more prestigious than Brown, and that b) Dartmouth, too, is less prestigious than Harvard and more prestigious than Brown.

The statement "regarded as one of the most prestigious colleges in the world" is vacuously true if you are sufficiently vague about the phrase "one of," but I think that by most standards that's overstated boosterism.

I hope that most Dartmouth alums do not want to be perceived as strutting peacocks with forest-green tailfeathers. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:44, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Still - see the Ivy League discussion, Dartmouth and Princeton are considered to put out the finest undergraduate educations in the Ivies, with Yale or even Harvard in the mix for inherited prestige or connection to their excellent graduate schools. Dartmouth is only Ivy school to spend fortune mostly on undergraduate education, so "undergraduate excellence and prestige" is worth a mention - somebody craft one and put it in - I'll defend against NPOV deleters.

Dartmouth College translates it as "A voice crying in the wilderness," so to ensure consistency, we should keep it as "A voice crying in the wilderness." Similarly, UPenn translates its motto as "Laws without morals are useless," not as it is sometimes corrected, "Laws without morals are in vain."

"Rocky vs The Rock;" "The Rock/The John"
I've snipped the amusing-if-true-but-I-don't-believe-it story:


 * It was originally called The Rock, but then spokespeople for the Rockefellers asked that the center not be referred to as The Rock. Soon, it was called The John. Naturally, not wanting the center to be named after the potty, the Rockefellers allowed the place to be called The Rock.

This is interesting if true, but needs attribution/citation. Anyone wishing to reinsert it: please provide some verifiable source for this information. And please provide evidence that it is generally called "The Rock," not "Rocky," as earlier revisions stated. (The original source for the "Rocky" nickname was the original article, contributed during a Dartmouth CS class exercise and hence presumably the work of a Dartmouth student).

My initial reaction is that it is believable that "spokespeople for the Rockefellers asked that the center not be referred to as The Rock." But the remainder of the story sounds more like a proposal, a joke, an invention, or a legend, and that I doubt whether the Rockefellers actually would have officially changed their mind.

But I question whether it is even called "The Rock."

It's noticeable that the website for the Hopkins Center makes a point of calling it "The Hop" but the website for the Rockefeller says nothing whatsoever about "The Rock."

Google site search on site:www.dartmouth.edu "The Rock" does not show any hits referring to the Rockefeller Center.

On the other hand, the site's actual URL is http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rocky and this schedule for meetings of a faculty web users' group http://www.dartmouth.edu/~wug/agendas/032000.html refers to the meetiing place as "Rocky 1930." These strongly suggests to me that the place is informally called "Rocky," not "The Rock." Dpbsmith (talk) 10:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm a student at Dartmouth and I've never once heard it called "The Rock," but it's more or less universally reffered to as "Rocky" by students and faculty alike.

Featured article?
What do the regular maintainers of this article think of proposing it as a featured article? Masterhomer 20:33, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the thing about the rock is the library at Brown, not Dartmouth

Dartmouth, Alexander McCall Smith, and Gaborone...
I don't really think this belongs in the article, but it made me smile and I thought I'd share it.

Tears of the Giraffe is the second in a series of novels by Alexander McCall Smith, the first being The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency. They are set in Gaborone, Botswana and feature an engaging, vaguely-Miss-Marple-like self-taught detective named Precious Ramotswe. In the novel, an American client comes to Mma. Ramotswe, and, in describing her problem says:


 * We came out here with our son, Michael, who was then just eighteen. He had been due to go to college that year, but we decided that he could have a year out with us before he started at Dartmouth. That's a very good college in America, Mma. Some of our colleges are not very good at all, but that one is one of the best. We were proud that he had a place there.

Dpbsmith (talk) 00:09, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Mascot
The other day, I listed "Keggy the Keg" as our (Dartmouth's) mascot and provided a link for him. Somebody named dpdsmith took it down and claimed that it was a "one time only joke mascot created by a campus humor magazine." While Keggy the Keg was created by Dartmouth's humor magazine, he is in fact the mascot of Dartmouth College. Keggy was conceived partially out of the student body’s growing disgust by the ever increasing ineptitude of the current college administration and it’s over zealous attempts to ban and censor anything and everything that could possibly offend anyone. Keggy is by no means a “one time only joke.” He made his debut at the homecoming football game of ’03 and since has attended almost every football game and most hockey games. Students all over campus can be seen sporting the attractive Keggy T-shirts which depict the lovable fellow drinking from his own tap and have the words “Get Pumped,” and “Go Kegs” written on them. Further evidence of Keggy’s legitimacy can be seen by that fact that snow sculpture for the most recent Dartmouth Winter Carnival (’05) was an enormous pirate ship which was christened “Captain Keggy’s Carnival Cruiser” by the student assembly based on a vote of the student body.

While Keggy may not be recognized as the official mascot by perversely politically correct and out-of-touch-with-reality administrators, Keggy instantly reached iconic status at his first homecoming game, and has since found a permanent place in the hearts of the sons and daughters of Dartmouth.


 * Well, if Keggy the Keg is an important facet of student culture, put something appropriate the text of the article, being sure to include an accurate statement of Keggy's unofficial status. But keep it out of the summary box. http://athletics.dartmouth.edu/aboutdart/nickname.html says plainly that the athletic teams' nickname is "Big Green" and that currently Dartmouth athletic teams have no "tangible mascot, symbol or nickname." Two possibilities: a very brief mention after the sentence "The teams' former mascot, the Dartmouth Indian, no longer is used." How about "Since 2003, Dartmouth events have been attended by Keggy the Keg, a subversive and unofficial mascot, invented by the campus humor magazine and beloved by students, though denied by officials?" Or if Keggy is truly significant, perhaps a short paragraph or section in the Student Life section. Be sure to maintain a neutral point of view. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:55, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"prestige" comment
Watchers of this page should see this poll about whether this page should contain a phrase like "widely considered one of the most prestigious universities in the world". Nohat 15:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dartmouth Film Society
There are two sections on the Dartmouth Film Society. One seems to be considerably longer than the other. I think the two can be reconciled.--Osprey39 19:08, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Comparison with other schools
I just deleted AaronS's edits in which he claims that a disproportionately large proportion of Dartmouth alums go into businees as opposed to politics. As "proof" he gives an unsourced percentage and compares this with the high percentage of international relations majors at Georgetown. He goes on to similarly compare Dartmouth to MIT, Amherst, Brown, etc. Comparaisons with other schools on such statistics are not appropriate for the lead paragraph of an article on Dartmouth. If anyone wants to make another section on "measures of superiority" or whatever, fine, but at least source the stats and avoid irrelevant information (like the concentration of IR majors at Georgetown, music majors at Oberlin, sports marketing majors at springfield community college, etc)


 * That wasn't my edit, dumb-dumb. --AaronS 04:26, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

"emphasizes its undergraduate program over its graduate schools"
A statement that


 * Indeed, of all the schools in the Ivy League, Dartmouth is perhaps the only one that emphasizes its undergraduate program over its graduate schools.

was recently changed to:


 * Of Ivy League universities, Dartmouth, along with Brown and Princeton, emphasizes its undergraduate program over its graduate schools.

I'm not happy with either of these statements resting solely on the authority of the contributor. I think they should be backed up with good source citation... a quotation from the school's catalog or admissions department or some well-known guide to colleges, or something like that.

If nobody comes up with some kind of verifiable source for this statement&mdash;in either form&mdash;I think it should be removed. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:56, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Truly Undergraduate
I publish college guidebooks for over 200 universities in the U.S. From my research I have found that the students at Dartmouth sense a blatant emphasis on undergraduate education. Here is a quote from a student there...

I wouldn’t trade my chance to attend Dartmouth for anything, for I’ve discovered that students are privy to the best undergraduate experience in the nation while attending the College on the Hill. Unlike so many other institutions these days—the College experience at Dartmouth is truly undergraduate. Professors teach every class and generally treat students like royalty. Sure, Dartmouth has a few graduate students, but they skitter about on the edge of campus, while everything important to undergrads surrounds the Green.

from the College Prowler Guidebook; Dartmouth College - Off the Record

-- A "blatant" emphasis? A Dartmouth student might say that the typical university has a blatant emphasis on graduate studies and research, giving short shrift to the true objects of an educational institution.

Dartmouth's billiards club
The Dartmouth billiards club is being voted on for deletion right now, as it's not notable enough on its own to warrant a page. I figured a Dartmouther (... what do you call yourselves, anyway?) might want to take a look to see if you want to merge any of the content over here, as I noticed you have a number of student org's listed. Cheers, JDoorjam 22:17, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

["Dartmouthers" are (technically, should be) called "Dartmothians.]


 * This is very likely a product of Peter C. Wayner's class project, which last year netted some 500-600 decent articles and about fifty that ended up on VfD. Most of the latter ultimatedly ended up being merged into Dartmouth College.


 * Sons and daughters of Dartmouth, you may wish to take a look at User:Dpbsmith/Dartmouth for some thoughts of mine.


 * This year's assignment is apparently due tomorrow, and we will probably see a few articles on trivial aspects of Dartmouth student life. I hope everyone will be courteous to our guests. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, a few I noticed on a single page of new pages:
 * Poolball
 * Dartmouth Final Cut
 * The dartmouth seven
 * Te@
 * Dartmouth Rugby Football Club
 * Gamma Delta Chi

sjorford &rarr;&bull;&larr; 10:24, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Happy medium between one catch-all and lotsa nuggets
Hi. As is explained above, over the last few years the wikipedia has seen a lot of small, arguably non-notable articles on facets of Dartmouth life. Most of them get VfD'd and their content gets merged into this page. This has led to a Dartmouth College page full of a gazillion little sections on individual facets of Dartmouth life.

It seems to me that this is getting out of hand and this page is getting hard to use because of it. There should be a happy medium: each club doesn't warrant its own page, but the Dartmouth College article shouldn't be burdened with so many little largely unconnected nuggets. A deletionist might argue for paring all that info out of the wikipedia altogether; but it seems much more friendly, respectful, and ultimately useful to simply spin it off elsewhere. To hold all this information, why not create these subpages: student organizations at Dartmouth and athletics at Dartmouth? Then this main Dartmouth College page could have brief summaries on these two subjects with the usual Main article: student organizations at Dartmouth pointer at the head of the appropriate § (in the same way that, e.g., most country articles deal with that country's history). Thoughts? Doops | talk 12:12, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, why has this not drawn any comment, one way or the other? Shall I just assume there's no objection? Doops | talk 04:41, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I saw your comment, thought it sounded reasonable, sort of wanted to wait for Peter Wayner's 2005 class exercise to finish before getting into it. The Dartmouth article is now 46K so some kind of breakout is reasonable. I might have preferred a single breakout page with a title like Dartmouth College student life, but if you're actually going to do real work on this than it's your call. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, I finally got around to doing this. There are now two spin-off pages, Dartmouth College student groups and Dartmouth College athletic teams. Please visit, develop, and enrich these pages. Doops | talk 04:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

"Midwestern Ivy League" ?
Contributors to this page may be interested in this article, which has been proposed for deletion:

Midwestern Ivy League

Please review the article and provide your input on that article's Votes for Deletion page. - 18.95.1.22 04:01, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Questionable claim
The opening ¶ currently claims that Dartmouth's preference for calling itself a "College" (rather than a "University") was mandated by the court in the Dartmouth College case. Is there any basis for this in fact? (That case's article makes no mention of it, which certainly doesn't surprise me, as the story sounds very apocryphal.) Doops | talk 04:48, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * It appears as if someone dumped in a fairly garbled bit of shoot-from-the-hip anecdote. Reads like it was written by Holden Caulfield. There is some relationship between the court case and the institution's preference for calling itself a college, but what's there sounds all wrong.
 * The paragraph seems to have been added by an anon about a month ago.
 * The case is described in some detail in the second paragraph of "The College" section.
 * I think the paragraph should be removed and reverted to "For reasons of tradition the institution as a whole is named "Dartmouth College" and not "Dartmouth University." That's all that needs to be said about it in the opening paragraph, anyway. Interesting details on the case etc. can be added to the historical section. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:47, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The name is not just a matter of tradition. I'd call it a "matter of tradition and mission".  It's a matter of reality, and of the fact that the alumni as a whole would have the head on a platter of any administrator who seriously suggested changing the official name of the institution to Dartmouth University.  Dartmouth can not ever hope to compete in terms of prestige, grant money, faculty or graduate students with the major research universities.  It is an undergraduate college with a small number of modestly sized graduate and professional departments, and the primary mission has always been and remains the teaching of undergraduates.  It can and does compete very favorably with any other institution in that mission, and tens of thousands of alumni are adamant about the name reflecting that fact.


 * All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, the opening paragraph ought to have a) one, b) concise sentence that explains the name. The rich details can go later in the article. And I'll bet there are institutions smaller and less comprehensive than Dartmouth that call themselves "universities" although I can't think of one offhand... Dpbsmith (talk) 20:30, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Wesleyan University, Colgate University, Sewanee, Washington and Lee University... Kane5187 04:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

No mention of BlitzMail
Wikipedia has an extensive article on Blitzmail, but absolutely no mention of it in this article (they're separated by four degrees) -- and it's a remarkably important part of the College culture. Currently, there aren't any areas into which a paragraph on Blitz would easily fit -- any ideas for other how to work it in? Kane5187 06:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I would suggest either placing a "Technology" as subhead under "Student Life" or creating its own subhead. Since Dartmouth is known for being ahead of the curve when it comes to intergrating new technology into campus life.  For example:
 * ''HOTTEST FOR THE TECH-SAVVY
 * ''Dartmouth College, Hanover, N.H.
 * "Dartmouth's first computer was so expensive that only faculty and administrators were allowed to use it. But Profs. John Kemeny and Thomas Kurtz understood that computers were tools for everyone. Forty years ago they created the computer language BASIC, which helped hasten the personal-computer revolution. The school has been in the forefront of technological change ever since, with one of the first e-mail programs and an early campus computer network. Dartmouth was also the first Ivy to install Wi-Fi on campus. The school offers free software to students so they can turn their laptops into telephones using the school's Wi-Fi—a good thing, because regular cell-phone service on the rural campus can be spotty. Newsweek - America's 25 Hot Schools: Hottest for the Tech-savvy"

Housing Clusters
I'm a student at Dartmouth right now, and that comment about how Dartmouth students most identify with their clusters is nonsense. No one goes around saying "I'm a Gold Coaster." The only possible exceptions are the River, East Wheelock, and the Choates, but that sentence should still be changed and replaced with a more accurate description of what the dorm situation actually is. Nicolasdz 08:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Help with Booz Allan Hamilton link?
So, I found the "Most Enduring Institutions" report on the Booz Allen Hamilton website and created a refernce in the first paragraph to it, but I'm not exactly sure how to cite the report in the "References" section at the bottom of the page. Can someone more familiar with Wiki than me help me out?

Thanks, Nicolasdz 07:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Archive
All discussion prior to 22 February 2006 has been moved to Talk:Dartmouth College/Archive 1. Replaced "good article" and "old peer review" banners here. Please continue/create any new discussion here, and start all new discussions at the bottom of this page. --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 01:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Dartmouth pong article being voted for deletion
The evil designs of the dreaded Wright administration have not even spared Wikipedia: Articles_for_deletion/Dartmouth_pong. --AaronS 02:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Phew! Kept. But wait 'til Jimmy W. and his jack-booted thugs try and take out Keggy the Keg. Kane5187 00:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The Motto (again)
So this is just going to become a revert war (again), so I'm bringing it to the talk page (again). It was already discussed here: Talk:Dartmouth_College/Archive_1, and it was agreed to use the correct Latin translation of "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness". What are everyone else's opinions about what the English translation of the school motto should read as? I've copied a response that was given on the archive page by the most recent reverter below. --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 16:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Dartmouth College translates it as "A voice crying in the wilderness," so to ensure consistency, we should keep it as "A voice crying in the wilderness." Similarly, UPenn translates its motto as "Laws without morals are useless," not as it is sometimes corrected, "Laws without morals are in vain." —This unsigned comment was added by 129.170.246.42 (talk • contribs).


 * It is true that Dartmouth now appears to be using "A voice crying out in the wilderness" more often than the correct translation. One of the pages that was cited on the previous discussion has changed its translation: . But, it's still incorrect. I'm in favor of using the correct translation. 'clamantis' is genitive, does not agree with 'vox', and should therefore be 'voice of one'. --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 16:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I looked at the edit history, and I suspect that an anonymous Dartmouth student or employee who doesn't know any Latin keeps reverting the motto. "A voice crying out in the wilderness" is widespread, but incorrect.  "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness" is correct, but not widespread.  When I was a classics student at Dartmouth, professors pointed out that the College's translation of the motto was grammatically incorrect.  A decision should be made here on whether we should use a correct translation or the accepted, but incorrect translation.  My only problem with the traditional translation is that it is grammatically incorrect and may make us look foolish to those who are not members of the Dartmouth community.  Maybe this is a good question for the "Vox in the Box" section in the Alumni Magazine -- why is Dartmouth's motto translated incorrectly by the College? Brian G. Crawford 16:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As a complete outsider to this discussion who just stumbled onto this (albeit one who studied the classical languages in his youth and would still if he had the time), my 2 cents are: It's probably best to stick with the official translation given by the College, for these reasons:
 * It's the "official" translation, and this should count for something. Moreover, even under the assumption that the motto is incorrectly translated, why change the official English motto?  Why not change the Latin to fit the sense of the words in English that the College wants its motto to be?  In short, why do we not take as an assumption that the English motto is "A voice crying out in the wilderness", and then translate this into Latin properly, and then we declare in Wikipedia that that is Dartmouth College's correct Latin motto?  Since English is the working language of the College, isn't it more important to get the sense of the English motto correct?
 * Although precise arguments can be made as to whether or not something should be translated depending on the case it was in Latin, let me point out that translation is an inexact science and it's completely legitimate to change the sense of grammar to fit meaning better. For example, videre est credere is most properly translated as "To see is to believe", but since this sounds so archaic it's much better in modern English to translate this to "Seeing is believing".  Being straightjacketed by the complex grammatical structures of a language dead these 1500 years may not be a virtue.
 * The difference between the two translations isn't really that big at all. When one says "a voice cries out", it's sort of implicit in the sense that the voice of a person, or the voice of one, is crying out.  If we're thinking of this poetically and not literally, this seems like a reasonable translation.  Do you think that when Fitzgerald translated the Odyssey he made sure that he literally translated every optative case in the original Greek, with a view towards preserving the grammar?  Or did he push some things around to keep the sense, and yet make the text better in English?  We speak with a much different rhythm and pace than the Ancients and when translating we can respect that.--Deville (Talk) 18:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input. My objection to this is that the Latin phrase is on the College seal, and it can't be changed.  I think we should go ahead and use the official English translation used by the College, with some kind of note indicating that it is a free or non-literal translation.  I'll go ahead and modify the article to that effect.  If anyone disagrees, go ahead and revert my edit.  I won't object. Brian G. Crawford 21:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that we should use both the Latin and English mottos put forth by the college itself. The motto is that of the college after all. Presumably the college interprets it as "a voice crying out in the wilderness" rather than "the voice of one crying out in the wilderness" because the former has less overtly religious connotations. "A voice" can be more freely interpreted as the voice of the college, where as "the voice of one" (especially in the context of the seal) more easily implies the voice of God. So for a college still trying to shed some of its religious roots, this reinterpretation of the motto should be allowed.--Osprey39 00:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Brian, I think this is a perfect solution to the problem. --Deville (Talk) 01:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've just come across this article for the first time, and before I'd read a single word of the main text my eye was drawn, as by a magnet, to the Latin motto and its (mis)translation. My immediate thought was "How can they claim to be a serious educational establishment when they can't even translate their own motto?" – and was all set to change it, before (thankfully) thinking to look at the talk page first. Brian's solution is sort of OK, but the fact remains that there is a real difference in meaning between "vox clamantis" and "vox clamans" in the Latin itself, not just in how we render it in idiomatic English; this is not (pace Deville) comparable with rendering "videre est credere" as "seeing is believing" – that is an accurate English translation (which takes account of the different grammatical structures of the languages), not a vague paraphrase which actually distorts the meaning of the original.
 * As far as the college itself is concerned, which is the definitive motto? I presume it is the Latin (that, after all, is what is shown on its arms), and IMO the English should reflect that. If the college's English "translation" actually says something different, the article may mention the fact, but it shouldn't restrict our right to render it accurately, if it is clear that the Latin is normative.
 * (BTW, it's worth pointing out that Osprey is mistaken in thinking that "the voice of one" (in the Biblical source) implies "the voice of God": In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John it refers to John the Baptist, while in Isaiah it is a non-specific but, from the context, clearly non-divine voice.) Vilĉjo 01:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with you, and I think that a correct, literal translation should be the one used, but I don't see how to keep people who don't know Latin from changing it to the incorrect translation. I have two degrees in Greek and Latin, one from Dartmouth, so I'm fully aware of the translation issues and the Biblical origins of the motto.  As far as I know, the motto is not translated on any College seal.  It's written in Latin on the original College seal as "VOX CLAMANTIS IN DESERTO." Brian G. Crawford 00:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, everybody. My views are still the same as they have ever been: Dartmouth's motto is the Latin phrase. Any English rendering of it is not the motto &mdash; just a translation of the motto. I don't think the fact that many college websites use "a voice crying in the wilderness" makes that sloppy translation official. My proposal: accompany the Latin phrase with a good translation; and then use a footnote at the bottom of the infobox to state that "The college tends to use a more informal translation: "a voice crying in the wilderness." Doops | talk 19:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed it back to a literal translation, since that seems to be what most of us support. I hope there aren't any more well-meaning attempts to change it again.  Just in case,

Dartmouth students: Read before editing motto!
The official College motto is "vox clamantis in deserto," which is literally translated as "the voice of one crying in the wilderness" by everyone literate in Latin, including the faculty of the Dartmouth Classics Department. If you feel that this is incorrect although you don't know Latin, walk over to Reed Hall (that white building in Dartmouth Row southwest of Dartmouth Hall and Thornton Hall), walk up to the third floor, and find a classics professor. Ask him or her how to translate the college motto, and then join the discussion. Please do not just change the motto. The folks in Parkhust are wrong about the motto. If we could just freely translate as we pleased, maybe "the voice of someone screaming in a wasteland" would be just as appropriate. Brian G. Crawford 02:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm missing something in the article or the discussion, but since there seems to be more than a little controversy here, can't the article briefly mention the discrepancy? Like, in the history section where it states the motto, perhaps a parenthetical note that "the official translation is X, which is not strictly grammatically correct"?  I don't want to do this myself as I don't want to be accused of starting an edit war anew.207.198.239.111 15:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, and done. Feel free to edit my wording around, but I agree that both translations should be presented in that part of the text. --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 19:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm evidently not very literate in English, as I fail to catch the important difference in meaning between "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness" and "A voice crying in the wilderness." The King James translators apparently thought it was "The voice of one crying in the wilderness" which seems to split the difference. Motto translation issues? You want motto translation issues? Take a look at poor Penn. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Presumably John the Baptist was neither weeping nor wailing in the wilderness—he was preaching. Interestingly, Isaiah (RSV) seems somewhat different:
 * 'A voice cries:
 * "In the wilderness prepare the way of the L ORD, ..."'
 * That voice isn't necessarily itself in the wilderness!
 * —wwoods 22:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, you're suggesting that "cry" by itself means "weep," and you need to say "cry out" to make it clear that the meaning is declaiming or shouting? But AHD4 says: 1. To sob or shed tears because of grief, sorrow, or pain; weep. 2. To call loudly; shout. 3. To utter a characteristic sound or call. Used of an animal. 4. To demand or require immediate action or remedy: grievances crying out for redress....
 * E.g. "battle cry."
 * Oh, well. Anyway, it doesn't mean "Folks clamoring for dessert." Dpbsmith (talk) 23:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

My main concern is that an incorrect translation of the motto gives the impression that we members of the Dartmouth community are a bunch of dumbasses. Perhaps we need the advice of an expert on the matter. I'm considering contacting the administration and the Classics Department for advice. Brian G. Crawford 02:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Revision: I'm actually fairly content with the way it is now. Brian G. Crawford 23:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The motto is rendered in both Latin and English by the college, so it is equally valid to say that the translation is incorrect in Latin as in English. The version on the official seal may be in Latin, but that translation does not in any way clearly stand above the English translation. If the article is written in English, which of course it is, then when the motto is given in English, it is appropriate to use the English version of the motto. It is certainly an interesting footnote that the two versions of the motto don't translate perfectly conventionally grammatically, but that doesn't change the fact that the English version of the motto is "A voice crying out in the wilderness". In fact it is totally silly to claim otherwise, because it's not true: we can all go to Dartmouth and ask what the motto is, and if the answer comes in English, it will never come as "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness"; and any professor which says so is merely being snippy. Let me draw a parallel to the King James Bible, which contains quite a large number of bad translations: when we quote the KJV in an article, it would be totally outlandish to "fix" any mistranslations; quite the contrary, the appropriate action is to put a a [sic] with a footnote. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nrrinard (talk • contribs).


 * I would agree with you *if* both the Latin and English mottos appeared at the same time and both were official. However, this is not the case. The Latin motto came into existence of 1773, after Trustees voted on it (reference this library paper about it). I am not sure exactly when, but the College did not start even giving an English translation until the mid to late-1800s. As far as I know, there has been no Trustee vote on an English translation. Also, the College's English translation has frequently changed and is even inconsistent in several places (three examples, all on the main College webpages: "a voice crying in the wilderness", "a voice crying out in the wilderness", and "the voice of one crying in the wilderness"). I'm a current student, and there are many more examples of this inconsistency in several of the physical buildings around campus, as well. However, the Latin motto is always given as "vox clamantis in deserto". And, Nrrinard, pointing to the King James Bible won't help either, because the phrase "vox clamantis in deserto" appears in more than one place, and the KJB translates it differently in different places. Isaiah 40:3 is probably the most commonly cited source passages, but it reads "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness"). However, Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, and John 1:23 all use the phrase, and read "The voice of one crying in the wilderness". So if we all "go to Dartmouth and ask what the motto is", you'll get different answers from different administrators (yes, *administrators* - I am not talking about profs, who I agree can get very fickle about these things). --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 15:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I accept the majority opinion that the motto should be rendered as a literal translation from the Latin, but I added a note to the paragraph explaining the controversy. I simply noted that the more popular translation, the one to which the Latin linguists object, translates not only the text of the phrase but the synecdochic meaning as well. I hope that is acceptable to everyone, and improves the understanding of the issue.Nrrinard 20:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

_____________________________

Anyone who has concluded that Dartmouth, based on its noterieity for "neo conservatist" cynicism and hooliganism in the 1980s and 1990s as with attacks on those protesting against Apartheid, should not lose sight of the fact that Thaddeus Stevens, the great abolitionist and Radical Republican, gradauted from there in 1814. Stevens was one of the House Managers in the impeachment trial of Andrew Johnson. He is, leaving aside the obvious bias of D.W. Griffith, aptly depicted in his epic silent film, Birth of a Nation, declaring on the floor of the new House chamber, "Carthage Must Be Destroyed!" Stevens lived openly with a colored woman in the District of Columbia and despised slavery. He represented a district in Pennsylvania that was a venue of the Civil War. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.206.149.227 (talk • contribs) 22:24, May 31, 2006 (EDT).

AD Raid
I removed the added paragraph on the AD raid. Fraternities get into legal trouble all the time (see Boston Globe article, which mentions at the end the charges to befall Theta Delt and Zete). I realize that this is in the news right now, but it doesn't seem worthy of full, paragraph-length inclusion on the article for the entire College -- this is unlikely to become a particularly memorable event in its 240-year history. I'd say it might belong at Dartmouth College Greek organizations, and, if Alpha Delta had its own article (like other Dartmouth houses -- see Category:Dartmouth College Greek organizations), it belongs there.

But not here. So I'm removing it. Kane5187 02:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

UMass Dartmouth Disclaimer Sould Be Added
Please consider the so-called "Little Red Book Hoax" and the fact that many internet media organizations mistook Dartmouth College for UMass Dartmouth, the school where the event actually took place.
 * Should there be a disclaimer on the Cambridge University page indicating that it should not be confused with Cambridge College? I don't think so. --AaronS 13:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the general notice presently in place, "For other uses of the term, see Dartmouth," is fine, since the dab lists UMass Dartmouth.
 * If internet media organizations mistook UMass Dartmouth for Dartmouth College, well, that was inexcusably slipshod work on their part and I don't think any amount of Wikipedia disambiguation would help. The names really aren't that similar, especially not if you use the formal name "University of Massachusetts Dartmouth."
 * There are many cases of similarly-named institutions of higher learning, and frankly, I think some of what is done in the name of disambiguation is done simply to call attention to the variation in fame of the pair of institutions. There's been a bit of a slow-motion revert war as to whether it's important for Boston College and Boston University each to explain that they aren't the other. (Nobody seems to be fussing about all the different St. John's Colleges and St. John's Universities, though).
 * And when you come right down to it, let's say someone mistakenly thought the student who made up the "little Red Book" story was from Dartmouth College. Or Darton College. Or University of Massachusetts Amherst. How many people really give a flying fig? If anyone thought it was terribly important what college this student attended, well, it's likely that these sloppy reporters would have paid more attention and got it right. I betcha a nickel that the erroneous stories just say "Dartmouth" and not "Dartmouth College." (It would be funny if one of them said "Dartmouth University," though...) Dpbsmith (talk) 15:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "Dartmouth University." *cringe* --AaronS 15:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, as long as there is a link to the dab page there is no reason to put more. -- Deville (Talk) 15:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Suess
You never mentioned in the article that Theodore Geisel, otherwise known as Dr. Suess, went to this college. As of the year 2004, there were school sports teams named after a myriad of Dr. Suess charecters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.195.133.53 (talk • contribs) 11:11, June 16, 2006
 * It's mentioned at Dartmouth College. Kane5187 23:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Requesting input on name change at Dartmouth Jack O'Lantern
I've proposed a move from Dartmouth Jack O'Lantern to Dartmouth Jack-O-Lantern, because the Jacko's official website doesn't use the apostrophe anywhere on its pages, and seems to prefer instead the hyphenated form.

The reason why I bring this up here is because I proposed this move several days ago, and still no one has weighed in. I'm guessing that the Jacko's Wikipedia article isn't well-traveled enough to bring in a lot of commentators on this issue. If you could read the proposal at Talk:Dartmouth Jack O'Lantern and then make a recommendation, it would help clear up the proposal and not leave it at a standstill for time unknown. Thanks! Kane5187 01:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations
Members of the WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. LuciferMorgan 03:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Tuition?
anyone know what it is without scholarship? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dappled Sage (talk • contribs) 00:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Everything comes to $47,000 or so, but I'm too lazy right now to go check...or login. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.5.27 (talk • contribs) 02:41, September 3, 2007
 * It's $45,483. Kane5187 13:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And there aren't any scholarships offered by the school, at least none based on merit or athletics; only need-based aid (financial aid).--Editing 19:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Alumni listed on this page
Dartmouth has plenty of notable alumni, but we only have a few listed on this page, which I think is a good setup: it gives the reader a taste of some of the most notable ones, and then lets you go to List of Dartmouth College people for the full list. However, there's nothing in place (i.e. no consensus) that determined who the few are presented on this page, and the result is that people are constantly adding or removing people that they don't feel fit the bill. What I'd like to do is establish here a consensus on which graduates should be included here as the most notable or most representative, so that we have something concrete and stationary in place.

Here's the current list:


 * Salmon P. Chase
 * Robert Frost
 * Henry Paulson, Jr.
 * Nelson Rockefeller
 * Theodor Seuss Geisel
 * Michael Slive
 * Daniel Webster
 * Andrew Shue
 * Fred Rogers
 * Rachel Dratch

I might also suggest:


 * Buck Henry
 * C. Everett Koop
 * Robert Reich

Anyone with me? If so, let's start up a vote / survey. Kane5187 20:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No one responded, so I just cut the list down to hose that were in my opinion the most important. Kane5187 01:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Robert Frost dropped out. He's not an alumnus. --24.128.186.180 02:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You're correct that he's not a graduate, but the Latin alumnus refers to any former student, not strictly graduates. Kane5187 02:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Other dropouts include John Ledyard and Stan Brakhage (who once broke into Steele to retrieve a chemistry book). Rogers actually graduated from Rollins College but would qualify under the older definition of alumnus.
 * Other alumni to include are William McDonough and Michael Arad and (since Chase is there) Levi Woodbury. And Jake Tapper.
 * --Editing 19:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Tech citations fixed, more images!
I just added the proof of "pioneering" VoIP and other technologies in the Tech section. However, the article text is getting increasingly cumbersome to sift thorough, it's be great if someone can place applicable pictures in this article, especially considering its length. The "featured article" schools (Duke, MU, etc.) have tons of pics. —DMCer 15:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So nobody's going to upload more? It's a shame the pictures just cease before the article even starts.DMCer 09:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a couple, but they mostly aren't real awesome. I'll try to take some good ones when I'm next in Hanover. Kane5187 10:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Fantastic! Thanks for getting on that, it was a nice surprise. DMCer 07:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've taken a lot of photos around campus, though haven't really had time to look through for Wikipedia ones (really busy term here). They're all on my Flickr site, though, if anyone else wants to take a look. They're technically copyrighted by me on there, but I'm happy putting individual photos into the public domain for Wikipedia purposes. --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 07:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've almost given up on recruiting pictures (I'd do it, but have no camera/lack skill). The article gets a bit dry after the cluster of pics on the History section; if anyone can add campus images to the rest of the article, it would add to it greatly. The Dartmouth Hall image could also use some brightening. Thanks. DMCer 22:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm on campus, so I'll be able to take pictures -- hopefully in the upcoming weekend. Kane5187 22:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed FAR tag
I removed the FAR tag and removed the listing from WP:FAR; FAR is for review of current featured articles. To attain featured article status, the nomination should be made at WP:FAC. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 17:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Having browsed the article now, I suggest that WP:PR would be a better place to start. The peer review listed is quite old, and the article doesn't appear ready for FAC.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 17:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the correction, I blame fatigue.. DMCer 19:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Pointless trivia
Is there any institution of higher learning in the US whose campus (staying in one place) has been a part of more countries than Dartmouth? I count four: Great Britain (of which NH was a colony), the State of New Hampshire (independent, as all the colonies were, post-Revolution), the Republic of Vermont (Hanover's Dresden district switched over in the 1770s) and the U.S. Baylor barely makes three (Texas for a few months in 1845, the US, and the CSA). Does this have any relevance at all? --Ghoti4 17:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think NH was ever an independent state on its own; collectively, the 13 colonies became the US, independent of the UK. The Vermont Republic would count, but did it really claim territory east of the Connecticut River?
 * —wwoods 20:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Weren't the colonies "free and independent states" after leaving Britain and before joining the US under the Constitution? Maybe not in the sense of tThe Vermont Republic/New Connecticut, I suppose.  The VR really did claim territory east of the river, including Dresden.  New Hampshire eventually let it back in.

--Ghoti4 17:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The Green
This article never introduces the Green as being a central part of campus, both physically and otherwise. (the article does refer to it, however, such as when discussing snow sculptures built on the Green). I think it should be somewhere near the top of the article, if not in the opening section. I also think the Green should at some point get an article of its own (Harvard Yard has one).Bonus Onus 20:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there ought to be a page on the campus/college's land owning in general (the second college grant, architectural guidelines set by the trustees, relations with Hanover, etc. could all go here). Miles 04:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Bingo! The Green (Dartmouth College) and List of Dartmouth College buildings. Kane5187 21:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Dartseal.gif
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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

GA comment
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Wohoo! Images!
I just uploaded 225 images of the campus and the athletic facilities to Wikimedia Commons, available under the Dartmouth College category heading. Because the file names are really long, it might be easier to sift through them from the list from All Pages, available here: Some of them are kind of shitty pics (e.g. the photos of Sigma Delt) because of foliage blocking a good view of the building in question.

I got photos of all the major fraternities/sororities/coeds, academic buildings, and dorms, excepting:


 * The pool in the Alumni Gym
 * The Aquinas House
 * Ledyard Canoe Club and other riverside buildings
 * The River dorms - French, Judge, Channing Cox, and Maxwell
 * Dick's House
 * Leverone Field House
 * Thompson Arena

Anyway, point is, they're uploaded to the Commons, so feel free to incorporate them into this article, Dartmouth College residential communities, Dartmouth College Greek organizations, etc., etc. Kane5187 21:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Pong?
Should there be a link to the Dartmouth Pong article anywhere in this? It's not in the Greek Life article or the Student Life article.-DMCer 20:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Oldest" anything
Okay, I redid two deletions that someone removed.

(1) The caption for the Dartmouth Hall photo said it was the oldest building on campus, which is demonstrably false. The building was begun in 1904 and completed in 1906 and thus is younger than all of its neighbors. Read the plaques beside the doors or check the years in the three gables -- one gable gives the date of the original Dartmouth Hall, which was a wooden building that burned in 1904; another gives the date of this building, which is the replacement; and the third gives the date when this building was completely gutted and rebuilt inside after another fire.

(2) The old saw about The Dartmouth being the oldest college paper and all. This claim is false and, more importantly, is completely unverifiable. A citation to the paper's own website, which mentions (without any evidence) that the paper was founded in 1799 is not enough to justify putting this claim in this article. The Dartmouth was neither founded in 1799 nor descended from any paper founded in 1799. The Dartmouth was founded in 1867, as the current volume number indicates, and may charitably be thought of as a revival of an earlier paper begun in 1839, although any connection beyond the name is doubtful. Look in the library catalog under LH1.D3 D2, which lists Vol. 1, no. 1 as Nov. 1839. --Tungstenkid 16:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * (1) www.dartmo.com is an excellent database of the history of every building on campus (and every bit of info in there seems to cross-check with other sources). Yes, Dartmouth Hall burnt down in 1904 ... but that original building was, in fact, the first building on campus, built in 1784. The previous wording was incorrect, but I'm adding the 1784 fact onto your caption, as I think it is a very important fact to note about that building.


 * Actually, the first Dart. Hall was not the first building on campus. That building stood with a meeting house across the street, on the Green itself.
 * --Editing 18:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * (2) The Dartmouth is the oldest college newspaper. The issue is that it is not the oldest continuously-published college newspaper. The discontinuity is that it was called the Dartmouth Gazette from 1799 to at least 1819, and there are a couple other names in between. I'm going to check out the book "The History of Dartmouth College" by Baxter Perry Smith, which seems to have the history of the College newspapers, and get a proper citation from that. Google books has it scanned, but it's one of the ones you can only view snipets of at a time: http://books.google.com/books?id=-UDzIjoyroIC&dq=%22the+dartmouth%22+1843&q=%22dartmouth+gazette%22+&pgis=1#search. Regardless, I believe it is still the oldest college newspaper in the USA, as the next verifiably oldest I can find is the Brown Daily Herald, from 1866. The Miami Student of Miami University in Ohio claims oldest at 1826, but I can't find anything besides for their website which states that fact.
 * --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 18:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The notion that continuity depends on name is preposterous. An institution which flourishes for 400 years with a name change in the middle has still had 400 years' continuity if its history is unbroken. On the other hand, an insitution which revives the name of a 400-year-old insitution but cannot trace any continuity of history is newborn, not 400-years old. Whether the Darmouth has been continuously published since 1799 does NOT depend on trivial name changes; it does depend on a close examination of the history to make sure it wasn't refounded from scratch (with an old name) in 1839. Doops | talk 20:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Both of these issues come down to the same basic foundation, which is verifiability. While you are right that in terms of continuity neither Dartmouth Hall nor The Dartmouth are the oldest anything, they both still are referred to as the oldest, respectively, in a preponderance of sources and thus per WP:V, we report that. If it is reported as both, we can't selectively choose to publish the information that appears in 1% of sources (that it isn't the oldest); at best, we need to explain that contradiction in the article.


 * The other point is that continuity or not, both are considered by Dartmouth College (per its own website) to still be the oldest of each category. I highly doubt Dartmouth College is unaware that Dartmouth Hall once burned down or that The Dartmouth hasn't been published without breaks; they just consider nonetheless that the founding date is what counts for each. Kane5187 22:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Dylan, I'm basically on your side, but I actually think I disagree with you on a lot of this. For the Dartmouth Hall caption - it was just plain old wrong the way it was originally written ("Dartmouth Hall, the oldest building on campus"). That was right to be corrected, I believe. And for The Dartmouth, it's not that 1% of sources say that it wasn't founded in 1799 - it's that there aren't many reliable sources which actually talk about the founding date at all, and those that do are generally Dartmouth-related (I agree that citing The D's website for that fact is definitely inappropriate). I tried searching around a lot, and couldn't actually find any decently reputable sites that aren't owned by Dartmouth and didn't just copy The D's "about us" page which talk about the founding date of the paper at all. The sites that are out there include a lot of Ivy League blogs, but I don't think blogs count as reputable/verifiable here. And Wikipedia should be an encyclopedia of facts, not of just what the masses say is right. Just like with the huge debate with the translation of the motto on this page, the article should reflect a true translation, but still talk about how Dartmouth officially translates it (which is technically wrong). --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 03:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Although The Dartmouth is kinda tricky to deal with, Dartmouth Hall isn't. So that's some comfort, at least. Doops | talk 03:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Amen, Smith. We should be able to find an accurate founding date to corroborate the volume number of the newspaper (which indicates its founding in the 1860s).  The opening editorial of the first issue (in the 1860s) speaks of the newspaper as a new venture and does not mention a non-college paper of a different name that was last printed fifty or more years earlier.  But I will have to dig that up again.
 * --Editing 18:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Changed founding date to 1867 per current volume number and historical information (provided by the paper itself) in the 1928 aegis: “Humbly founded in 1839, in a period during which campus publications of questionable character were mushrooming and withering almost every day, The Dartmouth of former days found itself hard pressed to maintain a foothold in the maelstrom of campus life.  The tottering paper was forced out of existence after its first five years of publication, but was revived in 1867.”  I think 1839 would be acceptable, although the 1844-1867 gap is a pretty big one across which to claim continuity.  --Bred09 19:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fact tag on placement of seal on buildings
I've placed a fact tag on the claim that the seal was carved into woodwork in Commons in 1901. First of all, what is Commons? As an '82 on the five year plan, I had plenty of opportunity to encounter a place called "Commons", but it's unfamiliar to me and I don't think my memory is really that bad. So second question is: if it was around in 1901 but was defunct by 1978, is it really relevant to mention in this article? Or, if my memory really is that bad, surely we need a citation that establishes the existence of this place and the fact that the seal was carved there in 1901.

And I guess a citation for the date of the carving of the seal on Rollins would be good, too.Rhsatrhs 02:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In Collis Commonground, above the big fireplace at the back, there's a carving of the seal. I don't know who calls it the "Commons," but that's most likely it.
 * That's it. It was carved when Commonground (formerly "Commons") was built in 1901.


 * Honestly, I've never really liked this part of the article about the seal. It began with an AfD nominated by me for the article Dartmouth College Seal, with the consensus being to merge the content here rather than to delete it. It's not that it's bad research or anything, it just kind of weighs down the article with a topic that's really tangential to an article about the College. Kane5187 02:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Collis Center was built in the late 1970s, so 1901's not possible. OTOH, Collis was built as an extension of the building to it's left (College Hall?  Been a long time...), which probably dates back long enough.Rhsatrhs 17:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * College Hall was built in 1901. The rear wooden portion was originally known as Commons ("Her sparkling noons, the crowding into Commons. The long white afternoons, the twilight glow") and contained an official eating club called the Dartmouth Dining Association, an organization since moved and renamed DDS.  The first Collis Center addition, of the late 1970s, renamed "Commons" for some reason as "Collis Commonground" and put in various mezzanines.  The second Collis Center addition of the early 1990s renamed the whole of College Hall as the Collis Center and generally restored Commonground to its original appearance, although without changing the name back.

Where's the peer review?
Last time I checked, we had two peer reviews at the top of the page... Also, the "Athletics" section was cited as being poorly sourced, I'll work on some of this-DMCer 20:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Time article and the D-Plan
I just stumbled across an interesting article about Dartmouth on the Time website, dated 1962.. It says of the academic system:


 * Three-Three Schedule. Dartmouth's most dazzling innovations are for undergraduates, who now come from all 50 states and 30 foreign countries, are 75% public school products, and generally fit Admissions Director Edward Chamberlain Jr.'s edict: "It's not how well-rounded they are; it's the length of their radii we're interested in." To stretch radii, Dartmouth has pioneered a "three-three" schedule—a three-term academic year with only three courses per term. Since the goal is to probe subjects more deeply, the work is a lot harder.

So, Dartmouth had a quarter system in 1962? I always thought coeducation in 1972 to be the progenitor of the quarter-system and the D-Plan. I imagine that the formal D-plan with sophomore summer and all does date from the '70s, but I figured that prior to that, it was out-and-out semesters. Anyone have any other information on this? Kane5187 11:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 1972 and coeducation brought about *year-round operation* - prior to that (I don't know for how long), there was a trimester system with fall, winter, and spring terms, and you were required to attend all three terms. The early 70s brought about 4 quarters and the D-plan system of choosing which terms you wanted to be on during. I have some books checked out that I'm sure have info that can be cited on this - poke me if you want some hard facts for any of the articles on here. --└Smith120bh/TALK┐ 20:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I can confirm 1972 as the start of the Dartmouth Plan from memory, but better still: here's a link to a news article in the Portsmouth Herald, dated 1972, confirming that the Dartmouth Plan/year-round operation was "new" at that time.   Unfortunately the full text is in a pay site.  I didn't realize/remember that Dartmouth had a trimester system before the Dartmouth Plan, but it makes sense.  It would have been very, very difficult to transition from semesters into both trimester-length courses and year-round operation simultaneously.  On another note, I just browsed around the Dartmouth web site a bit, and they've really buried information about year-round-operation.  I found nothing at all about it.  It almost seems as if they're embarassed by it and don't want prospective students to know about it!  Back in my day (class of '82), it was something they actively promoted as an advantage over other schools.  Another thing of note: when the D-Plan was introduced, the graduation requirement was 33 credits, so 11 terms at a three course load.  That would have been a reduction from 36 credits on the trimester system.  Now the requirement is 35 credits. Rhsatrhs 02:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Dartmouth College on the Main Page
Now that this article is an FA, it is eligible to appear on the Main Page. Per Today's featured article, a blurb from the lead needs to be extracted from it and proposed up to a month in advance of the desired date. The only real date associated with the College is December 13, the date it was founded, so I figure we can nominate it to appear on that date in 2007.

I'm writing here just to let everyone know that I will be / am working on the blurb here: Talk:Dartmouth College/TFA request and wanted to make it open to revision for all. Kane5187 01:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

AfD
This is to let editors of this page know that Dartmouth College student groups has been nominated for deletion. You can view the discussion here: Articles for deletion/Dartmouth College student groups. Cheers, Doops | talk 16:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Further: I'm AfDing Collis Center (here), The Dartmouth Independent (here), and Dartmouth Free Press (here) for notability reasons. Kane5187 22:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

More images
Homecoming was this weekend, and they open up Baker Library's bell tower for it, and so I went up and snapped some photos. It was hard to get a concrete subject (i.e. rather than randomly picturing a slice of campus), but here are some of the better ones: I put them all in the public domain, so feel free to use to illustrate whatever. Kane5187 20:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Image:Dartmouth College campus 2007-10-20 09.JPG
 * Image:Dartmouth College campus 2007-10-20 10.JPG
 * Image:Dartmouth College campus 2007-10-20 45.JPG
 * Image:Dartmouth College campus 2007-10-21 36, crop 1.jpg

FA nomination for The Green (Dartmouth College)
I've nominated The Green (Dartmouth College) for Featured Article. If you're interested, the nomination page is here: Featured article candidates/The Green (Dartmouth College). Kane5187 07:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Occom clarification
The article formerly stated: "Occom became an ordained minister under Wheelock’s tutelage from 1743 to 1747, returning to his people on Long Island to preach."

Actually, Occom did not become an ordained minister until 1759, a delay that has been blamed on Wheelock. And Occom was a Mohegon from Connecticut who went to preach to the Montauks on Long Island, people who were not "his people" unless you consider all Indians "his people."
 * --Dartmothian (talk) 20:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the fixes. The term "his people" was borrowed from the citation, which does indeed identify them as Montauks but nevertheless as "his people." Kane5187 (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

"finishing school" comment should go
"Prior to this period, the College was 'little more than a finishing school,' relatively unknown, and poorly funded" says the article. The only source for the quotation is an undergraduate-written article in the Dartmouth Review. That source is not sufficiently reliable to support this (mis-)characterization of Dartmouth during the nineteenth century. Although everyone agrees that the college did decline during the middle of the period, the characterization as a "finishing school" really is uncommon or even unique to the Review. This is not a widely-used or accurate description, in other words. Isn't a "finishing school" typically a component of women's education anyway?
 * --Dartmothian (talk) 19:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, in my experience, student publications (daily newspapers and other serious productions) are generally accepted as reliable sources. In this context, it seems to me that "finishing school" is merely an editorial summation of the next two more specific descriptions: "relatively unknown" and "poorly funded." If these facts are backed up in multiple sources, that's really what's important and central to the assertion. I don't think "finishing school" inappropriate, but if you feel it should be removed, the sentence can simply be shortened to "Prior to this period, the College was relatively unknown and poorly funded." Kane5187 (talk) 20:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * See Finishing School. The definition clearly does not fit in this context.  Rhsatrhs (talk) 23:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)