Talk:Darwin's Nightmare

Comment
This movie seems influenced by the work of Tijs Goldschmidt, author of Darwin's Dreampond. Though I haven't seen the documentary yet, I just thought I'd pass the word along. I read the book about four years ago and it was really enjoyable. There was a great mix of science and his personal experiences in Africa that I recall really enjoying. --4.235.147.198 07:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

yeah that author is referenced as an advisor in the credits. 21 April 2006

Possible eco-system correction
Is it possible that the Nile Perch will die out from starvation if they are the only predators in the lake? They destroy ecosystems in other places too. Why not introduce a crocidile or other natural predator?--69.255.16.162 21:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You might get a better answer if you ask this question at Talk:Nile perch, but here's what I can tell you. Being the only predator is not what would kill the perch. Eating the other animals faster than they can replenish would. Think of it this way: you won't necessarily starve if you're the only one who eats the food in your refrigerator, but you will starve if you eat it faster than it gets filled with more food.


 * Introducing another predator would not solve the problem. Are you familiar with the children's story about an old woman who accidentally swallows a fly, so she swallows a spider to catch the fly, then has to swallow a bird to catch the spider, a cat to catch the bird, and on and on until she swallows a horse! Introducing a foreign animal (or plant) to an area requires a great amount of care to do responsibly (as the previous resident If crocodiles ate the perch, that might get rid of the perch but the crocodiles would then cause even more damage to the local ecosystem than the perch ever could. --Icarus (Hi!) 07:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

On the suggestion that crocodiles be introduced to combat the Nile Perch, very large crocodiles already live in Lake Victoria; I've seen and photographed them at Rubondo Island for example. The Grumeti River, commonly shown on nature documentaries with its population of crocodiles attacking migrating wildebeeste in the Serengeti, is a tributary of the Lake. I suspect that many Europeans have little idea how vast a body of water the Lake is.Graeme. 130.102.0.170 (talk) 02:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Rechmaduong comments:
The last comment is correct. The crocodile concerned is the Nile crocodile, and given that Lake Victoria is the source of the Nile, it follows that this reptile is there; and it always has been. I have seen them with my own eyes. But crocs are hardly a predator to match the Nile perch, being far more concerned with land-based animals. Crocs aren't particularly well adapted or fast enough to take fish; although they do, it is insignificant in terms of the total tonnages of fish in the lake. The lake was well populated with predators before the Nile perch was introduced, most of which were pescivorous Haplochromines, but we can also mention the lung fish.

Nile perch are not farmed. It is economically not feasible to farm predators. Aquaculture success rates on the lake (both on shore and cage culture) are very poor.

Not only did the Tanzanian authorities object to this film, but so did the IUCN (International Union for the Conservation of Nature). The film is deeply flawed and made no attempt to take into account social and economic studies done on the lake, carried out by, amongst others, the Lake Victoria Fisheries Research Project, and the Lake Victoria Environmental Management Program. It is true that severe and depressing conditions exist on the lake shores, but attributing this solely to the Nile perch export is erroneous. See the entry on Lake Victoria in Wikipedia, which presents some of these findings. I am no cinematographer, so perhaps that's why the film received the accolades that it did; but as a social scientist with over ten years research experience on Lake Victoria, I find the film deeply erroneous. Much of the relevant literature on Lake Victoria is 'grey', but only a superficial amount of digging will yield it; much of the literature on Lake Victoria is also 'formal', and easily available. That the producer of this film failed to account for this literature is worrying. That the critics of the world so readily gobbled it up is even more worrying.

The Nile perch is not akin to a cash crop. The tilapia (of which several species have been introduced to the lake; one is the introduced Oreochromis niloticus, which now dominates tilapia catches from the lake) has often been referred to as the 'potato of the water' - in the main because it tolerates harsh environmental conditions and high fishing pressure so well. O. niloticus is a plankitvore and detrivore, which helps it to sustain its populations. Nile perch, as a pescivore, cannot do this, and the comparison with cash crops is incorrect.

Multiple researchers have noted deforestation as a consequence of fish smoking (see Geheb, 1997, cited in the Lake Victoria article). Imagining the fish trade outside of the export market as only the trade in Nile perch carcasses is, however, incorrect. Many thousands of tonnes of fish are traded outside of the factories - be these juvenile Nile perch that the factories don't want, dagaa (incidentally, the largest fishery in terms of tonnages landed), Haplochromines and other sundry fish species all make their way on to the market locally. Nile perch carcasses are always traded near the fish processing factories because that's where they are available. Often, pieces are deep fried and sold as snack. Deplorable though this may seem, the market is there, and artisans exploit it (see, for xample, Abila, 1994. The socio-economics of Nile perch frames marketing in Kisumu. In: The utilization of Nile perch by-product: report and proceedings of the seminar. KMFRI Seminar held at the Hotel Sunset, Kisumu, Kenya June 7th – 10th, 1994. Kenya Marine and Fisheries Research Institute, Kisumu, Kenya: 71-77; or, Abila, R. O. 1995. The patterns and trends of marketing and consumption of the fish of Lake Victoria (Kenyan waters). Paper presented at the FISA ’95 1st Pan-African Fisheries Congress, UNEP Headquarters, Nairobi.

Wrong citation
The article claims that the Russian pilot says:

"The children of Europe receive fresh fish, the children of Angola receive guns for Christmas."

I won't correct it since I'm not a native speaker, but actually the pilot said something like:

"The children of Europe receive grapes, the children of Angola receive guns for Christmas." When saying this he doesn't talk about the Tansanian fish, but earlier, somehow similar, transports he made. This is one of the last scenes in this film. Carl Eugen, 192.35.241.134 16:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The above user is correct - I recall that the comment was about grapes versus guns.--Mashedpotatoes1 18:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he says about grapes, not fish. Also I think he says, that the African children receive tanks instead, not guns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.115.148.23 (talk) 17:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC) Actually i think he says guns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.11.189 (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Once and for all: I'm watching the movie right now. This is the exact quotation: "My friend tolds to me: 'Children's of Angola received guns for Christmas days. Europeans childes receives grapes' ".

Criticism
This movie is biased and attracted alot of criticism not only from the actual fisheries in the country but also from the Tanzanian president. Atleast mention that.

The film maker tries to make the viewer think that the fish importers come empty handed and take the fish for free.

This is untrue. They pay for it. The film tries to convince us that fish exported from lake Victoria is used to fund fighting in Angola and Congo but this countries are no where near the great lakes.

Kendirangu 11:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

François Garçon
I removed the part about Garçon having business interests in the food industry because an information like that needs to be supported. It was placed in the article in a way that suggests Garçon is attacking the film to defend his own interests. I did a little research and found that, besides teaching, he also used to work for Havas, a French marketing group, which had some ties with some food companies, but if someone wants to assert Garçon's past involvement is behind his critique of the film he'll have to show some evidence first. --74.56.40.181 13:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And there would be better places to discuss that than this article, especially as long as it is just an allegation or suspicion. I have made a link out of Garçon so that those who would like to discuss him can start a stub and discuss him there ;) Dysmorodrepanis 13:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"Big fish, small fry"
This movie (available here) seems a far superior treatment than the sensationalistic "Darwin's Nightmare", as it is based on scientific research conducted since the 1970s. It may be useful as a lead for more information. The problem with Darwin's Nightmare is that it focuses on events occurring decades too late for its hypothesis, and hence has to turn to POV-pushing... Dysmorodrepanis 14:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Francois Garçon condemned for defamation by a french court
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/recherche_breve/1,13-0,37-1025731,0.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geremy78 (talk • contribs) 07:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Criticism section
Generally, criticism sections are undesirable here on Wikipedia. The entire section lacks any kind of references or citations, and is written like a high school news article. For example, one paragraph begins with the sentence, "Basically, the Nile perch is the animal equivalent of a cash crop." Well... yeah, like totally dude. But, like, let's explain it in ummm... academic terms?

For those of you who find that this information is really pertinent to this article, please support your claims by finding information from credible sources. Create new sections which describe the controversy(ies) surrounding the film. Otherwise, this information should be deleted. SweetNightmares (talk) 00:55, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Darwin's Nightmare. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080509122202/http://www.espacestemps.net/document2712.html to http://www.espacestemps.net/document2712.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:31, 20 January 2018 (UTC)