Talk:Darwin–Wedgwood family/Archive 1

Error in family tree links
Robert Waring Darwin (the father of Charles) and Robert Darwin (the great-grandfather of Charles) both link to the same Wikipedia article, namely the one on Robert Waring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.170.242.67 (talk) 21:13, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Darwin family tree 1
How many 'Darwin' great-grandchildren were there? I can only account for 26 (below) but another source says 28:

By 'Darwin' parent (in no particular order):

'''
 * a. Gwen Raverat, mother of 2
 * b. Charles Galton Darwin, father of 5
 * c. Margaret Keynes, mother of 5
 * d. William Darwin, father of 1
 * e. Bernard Darwin, father of 3
 * f. Frances Cornford, mother of 5
 * g. Nora Barlow, mother of 5'''

HELP PLEASE!

'DarwinDataMan' 2.30.208.44 (talk) 17:57, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
 * That would be a bit obscure for Wikipedia and numbers given could vary in any family depending how adopted children or children who die at or shortly after birth are counted. --Erp (talk) 07:00, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

'''All 29 accounted for!


 * a. Gwen Raverat, mother of 2
 * b. Charles Galton Darwin, father of 5
 * c. Margaret Keynes, mother of 5
 * d. William Darwin, father of 3
 * e. Bernard Darwin, father of 3
 * f. Frances Cornford, mother of 5
 * g. Nora Barlow, mother of 6'''

'DarwinDataMan' 2.30.208.18 (talk) 11:00, 19 April 2015 (UTC)


 * To be true, this sounds more like a blocked user evading his block... The Banner talk 15:11, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

':To be true, this sounds more like a blocked user evading his block' = this sounds like double-dutch*!


 * Double Dutch may refer to: Double Dutch, a description of hard to understand language and a language game; both primarily used in English:

2.30.198.98 (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Family Tree
ALL of the grandchildren have now been accounted for, but two graves of the spouses of grandchildren: Gwendoline, and Ruth are currently 'missing': of the second generation of the Darwin family (grandchildren of Charles and Emma) the following two graves have NOT yet been located: Jacques Pierre Paul Raverat (husband of Gwen Raverat, nee Darwin) and also  William Rees-Thomas (husband of Ruth Rees – Thomas, nee Darwin). Jacques Raverat is more than likely to be the most difficult to find in France! Any help in finding them is to be much appreciated?

'Darwinian Gravedigger' 2.30.187.198 (talk)

Ursula Mommens
There should be a brief entry for Ursula Mommens, the ceramic artist. At present she is just mentioned as the daughter of Bernard Darwin, but she achieved distinction in her own right, and there is a separate Wiki entry for her.109.156.125.235 (talk) 14:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Coats of Arms?
I'm not sure how or if these should be included. Someone just added the arms that some members of the Darwin family can use and mentioned they are incorrectly used by Darwin College (which would surprise me since I assume any Cambridge College arms have been approved by the official heralds). Also other members of the family are entitled to other coats of arms (notably Lord Wedgwood). It could get crowded. --Erp (talk) 18:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Arms granted in England are granted to an individual (or corporate body) and are inherited by one individual only on death. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:02, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Which is why including any on this page rather than the pages of individuals is dicey. Doubly so since the infobox title automatically takes the name of the article making it wrong.  I'm inclined to remove. It is not as though this is a family of nobles (e.g., Dukes of Norfolk) where a large number of members have the same arms.--Erp (talk) 19:33, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Well only the Duke from time to time would bear the arms. I am inclined to wait for further input from the uploader. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am also inclined to wait for further info from the uploader. But my inclination is that the coat-of-arms for Reginald should be on his page rather than on the page of the family as a whole. MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no page for Reginald. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  10:09, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I see that now. I assumed that Reginald might have a separate page, like that of Edward Levett Darwin. MarmadukePercy (talk) 11:17, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Reginald doesn't seem to have been important enough for a wikipedia article. He might have gotten the arms on the grounds that his father as a knight was entitled or that Erasmus Darwin was entitled .  He might also have been getting legitimized arms that the family had been using for some time.  I note the other references pre-date the grant. --Erp (talk) 16:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Apparently Erasmus Darwin used some variation of this coat-of-arms and added a motto, which he then painted on his carriage in Lichfield. MarmadukePercy (talk) 10:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

There is some info on Darwin arms at Charles Darwin: A companion. Robert Waring Darwin (Charles Darwin's father) seems to have had arms and it has descriptions of others such as Charles Darwin's sons (accuracy unknown but references Burke for some). --Erp (talk) 21:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for posting this. It is clear that other members of the family bore some version of these arms, cadenced for difference. This from the General Armoury And this from English Heritage MarmadukePercy (talk) 08:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * We do need to fix the infobox title since these are not the arms of the Darwin-Wedgwood family. Possibly a different template? I'm also not sure whether this belongs here. --Erp (talk) 16:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi all! I had no idea that creating this image was going to cause such chaos. I recognise now that it is a more complex matter than I had originally thought. (Quite right that the box template is now labelling the image quite inappropriately.) I've posted all the information I have on the arms here, on Charles Darwin's discussion page, and my own discussion page. I can't really add anything more. I'm just an illustrator (of sorts). I'm happy to let others decide how/if to use the image. If someone could let me know where it ultimately ends up, I would certainly appreciate it. Best wishes. A1 Aardvark (talk) 02:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thought I'd add this link I stumbled on: the arms of Darwin (quartered with Waring) from The History of the County of Derby, Vol. 2. MarmadukePercy (talk) 06:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Bernard Darwin.jpg
The image Image:Bernard Darwin.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

Problem with family tree links?
The top link to Robert Darwin, (Charles' great-grandfather?), links to Robert Waring Darwin (Charles' father). Robert Darwin's daughter Anne links to Charles' own daughter, died aged 10. Nattrell (talk) 22:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This problem is still there. I like the family tree image but I have no idea how to fix the links, and if the misleading links are not corrected the image needs to be pulled. Somone who doesn't know the family better might be mislead. Rusty Cashman (talk) 18:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Work in progress
Anyone like this? Not sure if this is the best image or if everyone is going over to HTML based trees. If you move your cursor over the image then you will begin to see how it works. Using it as a visual table of contents for this article would work too. Victuallers (talk) 16:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC). Does anyone read this? Victuallers (talk) 23:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Too dense to see the individual names, impossible to enlarge with your current settings. Not good. Either make an HTML tree or make it just an image that we can enlarge. Very difficult to use, worse than nothing at the moment. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 22:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree too dense and we are missing people. We might have to break into multiple trees to make it more readable.  If so I suggest three


 * Notable descendants of Robert Darwin not including the descendants of Charles Darwin
 * Notable descendants of Josiah Wedgwood not including the descendants of Emma Wedgwood
 * Notable descendants of Charles Darwin and Emma Wedgwood
 * I would also do it in Template:Chart format. I'm willing to make a start if people think this is a good idea. I've done similar stuff before--Erp (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Fanny Wedgwood
Desmond & Moore's Darwin p 12 notes of Maer "Here Jos and Bessy came to live in 1807 with their six children. On 2 May 1808... their last baby, Emma, was born". Page 139 records that Fanny Wedgwood, Emma's close friend and suggested as a match for Charles Darwin, died in August 1832 at the age of 26, while he was not long on the Beagle journey. ... dave souza, talk 13:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move to Darwin-Wedgwood family, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 00:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Darwin — Wedgwood family → Darwin–Wedgwood family —(Discuss)— I believe it's an incorrect use of dashes as per WP:MOSDASH, but I wanted to get some consensus here before moving. —Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 17:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * I notice this was brought up in November with no responses. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 17:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

What about Darwin-Wedgewood family, which is actually typable? Adam Cuerden talk 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Technically, it's incorrect (read WP:MOSDASH), but that doesn't prevent us from creating a redirect of that title. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 04:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Am I misreading WP:MOSDASH or does it not say no dashes other than hyphens in page titles? I think that even if Darwin–Wedgwood is correct in the body of the article, the title should be Darwin-Wedgwood, with a possible redirect from Darwin–Wedgwood. Joeldl 06:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I support moving to the version with a simple hyphen. See, for instance Gough-Calthorpe family and related. Andy Mabbett 11:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I see that guideline now, Joeldl. I was basing my assumptions off of Poincaré–Birkhoff–Witt theorem, which uses en dashes. Anyway, then I'll support a redirect of Darwin–Wedgewood family (en dash) to Darwin-Wedgewood family (hyphen). --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 16:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Joeldl 18:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Except it is Darwin-Wedgwood, no second 'e' in Wedgwood (at least in this branch of the family). --Erp 21:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, if there's no objections, I'll make the move. Adam Cuerden talk 22:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Infor removed from Keynes family

 * In addition to the above, Francis Galton was the grandson of Erasmus Darwin, Charles Darwin's grandfather who's mother was a member of the Hill family.

Move?
Wouldn't this look better with an en-dash, not an em-dash? That is, Darwin – Wedgwood family Adam Cuerden talk 11:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Randal Keynes's book
In Darwin, His Daughter & Human Evolution, Riverhead Books, New York 2001, page 357, Randal Keynes (son of Richard Keynes) writes:
 * ''George brought his American wife Maud and their young children from Cambridge every summer. Gwen later remembered ....

and on page 358:
 * ''My grandmother Margaret, Gwen's younger sister ...

This contradicts partly with the tree image, and one might assume that Maud = Marthe du Puis and Margaret = Elizabeth Darwin (1885-1957). I would suggest to put Margaret Elizabeth Darwin into the tree image as mentioned in the Keynes Family article. A n d r e a s   (T) 18:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

12 November 2006

No, you should not merge this into the Darwin-Wedgewoos family page. It is a biography of a person and so should not just be merged with a page where they are hardly mentioned when the page it was previously on had a reasonable amount of information about them. (eg. there is a page on the bush family but you haven't merged the George W. Bush page with it have you?)

Error in family tree image
The death date of Anne Elizabeth Darwin is 1851 and not 1951. A n d r e a s   (T) 17:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Four years after AndreasJ pointed it out, the error is still there. Casey (talk) 15:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * And it just needs someone to edit "Darwin-Wedgwood-Galton family tree.png" .... does no one have a copy of paint? I dont have an image editor on this laptop. Oh and don't change the size of the image or stuff will stop working. Victuallers (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * How to download it? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  16:41, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Go here and right click and choose download image Victuallers (talk) 18:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. Downloaded and edited it. How do I reupload it and what do I do about copyright issues? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  18:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There are no copyright issues if you are giving your time freely. You can upload it here. You will need to be logged into wikimedia commons first. Victuallers (talk) 23:14, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you Victuallers. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Your welcome. Hope you learnt a bit. Ask when you forget some aspect/want to know more. Cheers Victuallers (talk) 19:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Ordinals
Is there any evidence that either the Wedgwood or Darwin clans used ordinals in their names (e.g., Josiah Wedgwood II)? I think not so I have removed them on this page but would like a discussion before going further. The convention states that "Disambiguation: only when naming the ordinal explicitly is the commonest way to refer to the person". --Erp 23:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Josiah I's children
Mea culpa, my bad for not checking the dedicated article – he did indeed have seven kids. Ta for fixing all! JackyR 22:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Merges
I added merge suggestions for Anne Darwin and Charles Waring Darwin because there's really not enough in those to warrant being separate articles. They both basically say they were good children and then spend the rest of the space stating how they affected Charles Darwin. That's relevant to Charles Darwin but not to the children themselves. I'd recommend merging to Charles Darwin but that article is already much longer than the recommended maximum length. Thoughts? &mdash;Wknight94 (talk) 11:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The Anne Darwin info could appropriately be added to Development of Darwin's theory, and Publication of Darwin's theory checked to ensure it covers all the points in the Charles Waring Darwin article before merging the description of the child and his death into the family article. ...dave souza 13:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as the Charles Darwin article itself, it looks like a lot of the info in the children's articles are already in there - but I haven't checked word-for-word. &mdash;Wknight94 (talk) 13:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's all in these articles - want me to do it? ...dave souza 16:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it would not be a good idea to merge Anne Darwin into Development of Darwin's theory. The latter article is already pretty long and rambling, and couldn't very easily bear the further interruption of material specifically about Anne Darwin.   Moreover, the death of Anne Darwin is really only marginally relevant to the development of Darwin's theory--it was an important life event that took place during the preparation of the theory, but probably did not determine the form of the theory in any way.  So I would say let's keep everything well organized, and let Anne have her own article. Opus33 16:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose merges. Gentlemen (and ladies if there are any or shall hereafter arrive), I don't think much of your proposals for merging some number of these articles. I rather think it shall be a disfavour unto us in the longer term. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge - These articles are short and relate directily to Darwin JohnnyMrNinja 07:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - both are not only valid articles, but useful targets for links. Andy Mabbett 11:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Family tree image
Broken link: As of January, 2021, the family tree image is not displayed, an error pops up. Kolorado (talk) 08:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I've created a bigger, more complete family tree image, if you'd like to use it here. See Image:Darwin-Wedgwood-Galton_family_tree.png. Obviously, if you want additions, I'd be happy to modify it &mdash; its rather simple. Dewet 19:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's great. A few questions though.  Firstly, how did you create it, and is there any way of uploading the source files?  I think the whole thing needs to, er, evolve, by tweaking it a bit but it's a whole lot better than the previous version, which I'll ifd. Dunc|&#9786; 20:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * No worries ;) I did it in dia, took me about an afternoon to get it all neatly sorted out, but now its fairly simple to update.  I could probably post the .dia file somewhere, if anyone else wants to work on it? Dewet 20:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure you're allowed to upload non-image files, but you could ask at Village pump (technical). You couldn't do ones for the other biological families, viz Haldane/Mitchison and Huxley family could you? Dunc|&#9786; 21:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, you're missing off William Darwin Fox, but that means you need to put in Erasmus Darwin's parents and sister and that goes down there, though I'm sure you can work it out. Dunc|&#9786; 22:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Right, I've updated it with W.D.F., but I couldn't find Erasmus's mother? Dewet 07:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I've also completed Image:Huxley-Arnold_family_tree.png, but the Haldane tree is very messy at the moment; lots of missing information.  A big question is whose children are Richard Burdon, John Scott and Elizabeth?  I know their grandfather is James Alexander, but the only mention of a son he had is Daniel Rutherford from his second marriage, but nowhere is D.R. specified as their father.
 * And finally, Image:Haldane-Mitchison family tree.png is sort-of done. I've drawn my assumptions in purple, being the issue I mentioned above. Dewet 10:49, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * You could merge the Huxley-Arnold family tree with the Darwin-Wedgwood one since there are two connections. Andrew Huxley married Richenda Pease, a granddaughter of the first Lord Wedgwood, and Angela Darwin nee Huxley was a great granddaughter of Thomas Huxley and married a descendant of Charles Darwin.--Erp 00:12, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Could you please add Sir Francis Sacheverel Darwin to the tree? Although I have an interest (as a direct descendant through the Worsley family), I suggest he justifies it. His travel writings pre-date and in some ways anticipate the Voyage of the Beagle and he was a very early pioneer of travel writing. He was a physician to George IV and was an extremely colourful character in his youth (see the latter chapters of Desmond King-Hele's biography of Erasmus). It also provides context for several entries on the page. Francis Hoar, 1705 on 6.12.2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.40.49 (talk) 17:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have added a link from the image to Josiah Wedgwood III but have not updated the image itself to indicate that the article exists. - 4b3eff (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Other members
Someone should probably should add Vaughan Williams, the composer, to the list. He was a grandson of the third Josiah Wedgwood and of Caroline Darwin.

Also others with articles already in Wikipedia that are in the clan

6th generation Cicely Veronica (CV) Wedgwood, the historian Camilla Wedgwood, the anthropologist

I'm willing to add but I'm new to editing in wikipedia.

Article name
Shouldn't this be at Darwin-Wedgwood family, in keeping with more usually naming procedures? -Aranel (" Sarah ") 03:09, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * From what I could gather of typography, it should be Darwin–Wedgwood. Leandro GFC Dutra 22:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * See User_talk:Duncharris - should be Darwin — Wedgwood family CLW 22:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * How about "D a r w i n ————————— W e d g w o o d"? Laetoli (talk) 00:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that the article is about two distinct families - one family with the surname "Darwin" and one family with the surname "Wedgwood" - and not about one family with the hypothetical surname "Darwin–Wedgwood", there should be no article at Darwin–Wedgwood family or at Darwin-Wedgwood family or at Darwin — Wedgwood family. I can't imagine any possible controversy about that. There could, on the other hand, be articles at Darwin family and at Wedgwood family. -- Oliver P. (talk) 17:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem is they are families with at least three intermarriages (and at least one inter-affair) and a lot of other close interconnections (helped by so many of them inheriting stock in the Wedgwood firm until the successor firm (Waterford-Wedgwood) recently went bankrupt) that splitting them would results in two articles with a lot of overlap. The name Darwin-Wedgwood families might be an option.  Note a lot of the listed people have neither the surname Darwin or Wedgwood but have either Erasmus  Darwin or Josiah Wedgwood or both as ancestors (one could add as a patriarch John Bartlett Allen who was the father of Elizabeth Allen [wife of the second Josiah Wedgwood], Louisa Jane Allen [wife of John Wedgwood], Catherine Allen (who married James Mackintosh and was mother of Fanny Mackintosh [wife of Hensleigh Wedgwood and mistress of the second Erasmus Darwin] and Jessie Allen [who married Jean Charles Léonard de Sismondi) and was an influential aunt to many of her nieces and nephews] but none of his sons hence no 'Allens' had significant descendants) --Erp (talk) 22:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Tony Benn
This ought to mention the distant connection to Tony Benn. 80.229.39.194 16:29, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Despite attempting, I can't find any info through google; I get a lot of noise. Can we verify that/come up with a relation? Dunc_Harris|&#9786; 18:56, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * William Wedgwood Benn, 1st Viscount Stansgate was named 'Wedgwood' after a distant cousin of his mothers called Josiah. 80.229.39.194 08:09, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * From Wedgwood (disambiguation) "Anthony Wedgwood Benn (Tony Benn) and William Wedgwood Benn are descended from Aaron Wedgwood, younger brother of Thomas Wedgwood I" (great-grandfather of Josiah the Potter) - The Wedgwood tree goes back a long way before Josiah - all the way to the knights that fought alongside William the Conquerer through the Brereton line - see the Family Search web site - annoying to use as it jumps into new (or old) windows when you view the Pedigrees) Laetoli (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that the relationship is only through marriage and that the Wedgwood Benn's are not actually descended from any Wedgwoods. There is no source in either wikipedia entry supporting a family connection by blood.--Erp (talk) 00:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)