Talk:Dave Zirin

Untitled
Dave, its a simple question, do you think Barry Bonds has used steroids? http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=No_Softballs:_Dave_Zirin

1) Your Wikipedia entry claims that you "believe [Barry] Bonds has never done steroids." When you come off your LSD trip and check into rehab, would you rather share a suite with Lindsey Lohan or Britney Spears?

A: Ah. Wikipedia. The source of truth for the desperate college freshmen and terminally stupid among us. I never wrote that I "believe Bonds has never done steroids." I wrote a column in 2003 called "The Case For Reasonable Doubt" where I go through the ways Bonds was breaking many of the accepted truisms about roids: I wrote, The greatest case for reasonable doubt lies in Bonds' very late career success. His unparalleled middle-aged majesty screams his innocence. Steroids and rapid 'unnatural' muscle growth puts tremendous pressure on the joints and tendons. Admitted steroid users like Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Lenny Dykstra and banned substance user Mark McGwire all saw their bodies break down as they hit their mid 30s…Bonds has thrived as he hurtles toward 40, not unlike Jerry Rice, Brett Favre, Reggie Miller, and Randy Johnson. To go by the rumors that surround him, Bonds' ankles should be snapping like toothpicks every time he jogs to first base. Also, worth mentioning that unlike oh so many others, the man never actually failed a steroids test. Is there a ton of circumstantial evidence that the man juiced? Absolutely. But he is still the best player I've ever seen. The best player of what will go down as the anabolic era. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editor437 (talk • contribs) 15:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Protection
The page is protected due to the edit warring of the last few weeks. Please make greater use of the talk page for discussion and please be mindful of WP:BLP. CIreland (talk) 07:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Does this edit war constitute WP:LAME. Ta, --1qx (talk) 12:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I was just considering putting it on there, based on the fact that both sides are quoting the same interview to found their viewpoint. Fléêťflämẽ U-T-C 00:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous user 96.247.103.165 has repeatedly reverted undo's I have recently made. It appears we are headed for another edit war, request for protection, and possibly another blocked IP. What's the best way to handle this ? See the History page to review the obvious POV reverts. Ronald Joe Record (talk) 17:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * We now have repeated efforts by User:Creolteno to assert that Zirin is a self hating jew. No citation is provided although even with citations i do not believe this would be acceptable under the guidelines for biographies of living persons. Repeated undo's by myself and others seem to have no effect. Another edit war ensues! Ronald Joe Record (talk) 21:40, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Third opnion
An editor has asked for a Third Opinion as a first step toward dispute resolution. Can I get the disputing parties to give me a brief summary of the issues below without rebuttal, just the facts please. I'll read through the comments above. Thanks! These usually workout well. --Kevin Murray (talk) 11:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Dave has wrote several articles defending bonds against accusations of steroids and repeatedly refuses to give a yes or no answer to a simple question: DO you think barry bonds has done steroids?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.94.0.250 (talk) 10:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * So, the question is, given that Zirin will say neither yes nor no, is it valid to say, as the disputed section of the article says, "Zirin is also one of the few reporters that believe Bonds has never done steroids." Editor437 (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Obviously, no. The article imputes an opinion Zirin has never publicly disclosed. Zirin's stated position is that there is a good case for reasonable doubt wrt Bonds and steroids. If Wikipedia were Stephen Colbert then we could just say "I'll take that as a yes". Unfortunately, this is not a conservative talk show parody so we must go with the facts. Ronald Joe Record (talk) 19:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion given
There are a five issues here, which I address below:
 * I think that we need to eliminate unsourced speculation from the article. If there is well documented speculation by verifiable independent and recognized sources, then that could be included as long as we seek balance among multiple opinions if available -- in all case the opinions should be referenced with inline notes.
 * If Zirin hints at something in an interview or writing then we are merely speculating about his beliefs, though we could include direct quotations.
 * There has been interjection of POV into the external link labels. The labels should only include the site address or the name of the organization linked to.  Proper titles such as: Reasonable Doubt, Why Barry Bonds is Not on Steroids By Dave Zirin would be better referenced as inline footnotes or in a bibliography/references section, along with a citation of the publisher, date, etc.   I'm happy to help with this on request.
 * This is a minor issue tangential to Zirin's career. Consider WP:Coatrack, where this article merely becomes a place to debate the Bonds issue, and Zirin is only the rack.
 * From what I see there has been no independent and verifiable demonstration of notability, for Zirin as a WP subject, in the traditional means to satisfy WP:N or WP:BIO, but I see journalists in the public eye as a bit of a special case, and think mainstream publication or broadcast of one's work demonstrates notability. On the other hand this might not survive AfD.
 * --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Editor437 is dave zirin —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)

96.247.103.165's comments
96.247.103.165 blanked the talk and left the following message: "Zirin defends Bonds more than any other writer that I know of. The bay area newspapers defended Bonds, but even they have since come to grips that Barry used steroids. There is a huge amount of material by Zirin defending Bonds, so what if he never wrote the exact words, "i don't think bonds has used steroids" the fact is, his defense of Bonds warrants considerable attention in his biography. He repeatedly dodges direct questions as to whether he thinks Bonds has juiced, much in the same way that Bonds himself has never directly answered the question. I will start work on a page of writers who defend Bonds' innocence."Editor437 (talk) 03:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

IPs used to make NPOV edits on this article
These appear to be all the same person -- or no more than two people:


 * 96.247.103.165talk
 * 122.3.11.211: talk
 * 119.94.0.238: talk
 * 96.247.37.46: talk
 * 119.94.12.16: talk
 * 119.94.3.120: talk
 * 119.94.0.250: talk
 * 122.144.118.160: talk
 * 58.69.106.184: talk
 * 119.94.15.176: talk
 * 119.94.11.144: talk
 * 122.52.185.53talk

Rewrite of article
The article seems to be a laundry list of citations, followed by a bombastic argument on a trivial point on steroid use. I recommend major changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 347Editor (talk • contribs) 02:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * note that 347Editor is a sockpuppet and is the only editor the create problems with this page Editor437 (talk) 05:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The Bonds section has become a lightening rod for controversy, so I have delete it, per WP:Coatrack. --Kevin Murray (talk) 05:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The Bonds section should be restored. Zirin is, in part, notable specifically because of his views on the Bonds steroid controversy. Deleting this section and the links to his articles leaves this Wikipedia entry without its primary cause of notability. Yes, this section has been controversial but that is due to the annoying persistance of "editors" with an obvious personal bias. Isn't there some better way to handle this than removing the primary content of the article ? Ronald Joe Record (talk) 18:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, it is not-POV, significant to the subject and it is cited,so I am restoring it per WP:Bold Johnelwayrules (talk) 17:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Hypocrisy?
22 days before criticizing Americans for turning soccer into "political football", Zirin was congratulating the Turkish team for not playing football against Isreal for political reasons. Should this article mention Zirin's blatant and provable hypocrisy? I'm thinking of putting it in but wonder what others think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.83.125.13 (talk) 19:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Is he Turk or Arab
He seems to take such positionsLingust (talk) 01:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Dave Zirin exposed as liar
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.ru/2014/03/nation-sports-writer-dave-zirin.html#more — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.77.177.39 (talk) 16:45, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on Dave Zirin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080603133747/http://www.counterpunch.org/zirin03272004.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/zirin03272004.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071112233817/http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=No_Softballs%3A_Dave_Zirin to http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=No_Softballs%3A_Dave_Zirin
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080603133747/http://www.counterpunch.org/zirin03272004.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/zirin03272004.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071112233817/http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=No_Softballs%3A_Dave_Zirin to http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=No_Softballs%3A_Dave_Zirin

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Disappearance from commercial television
I recall seeing him on MSNBC. But no more, since 2020 or 2023.Dogru144 (talk) 16:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)