Talk:Dave the Diver

Not an indie
While it's true that this game has been cited as an excellent new indie (independent) studio title (including by several of the sources used on this page), I do not believe this game qualifies for that categorization. This is the first title from new studio Mintrocket, who is a wholly founded subsidiary of Nexon, a large Korean conglomerate with investments in other large game studios who has been around for decades. It would be one thing if the studio had been founded independently and then acquired, but the studio was created entirely by Nexon from the beginning.

For that reason, I've removed mentions of this game as being indie from the page. If others disagree with this assessment, I'd be curious to hear the reasoning. Aquova (talk) 13:26, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That sounds like your own original research. It's sourced.  Verifiability, not truth is an essay that explains some of how Wikipedia works.  We report what sources say, not what we personally believe to be true.  Many people probably have their own personal definitions of what makes something an "indie game".  Those aren't relevant on Wikipedia, which merely repeats what reliable sources have already said. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:05, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Re-added "indie developer"
After previous revert back to having Mintrocket labeled as an indie developer, it was later re-removed by an IP editor despite not giving a valid reason to remove the text. I have since re-added it, as well as put references to articles referring to Mintrocket and Dave the Diver as indie. As per the edit reversion by user @NinjaRobotPirate, these are verifiable, reliable sources, and are also on WPVG's list of reliable sources.

If there can be found both reliable sources, that are secondary to the material, then the term "indie developer" may be removed, and information regarding Mintrocket not being an indie developer could be added to either the lead or Development section with references. Doing original research and using sources not considered to be reliable would fall under WP:NOR and shouldn't be added. SmittenGalaxy (talk) 20:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Uncited indie developer
I've opted to remove "indie developer" from the text. "Indie developer Mintrocket, a subsidiary of Nexon" is a direct contradiction in terms, and the first half is not actually supported by the sources cited (while the game is referred to as indie, and the source would justify that, no mention of the term indie developer exists in there). Nor is this a particularly necessary or worthwhile judgement for this article to try to wade into, adding no information. If somebody can cite a couple of reliable sources actually describing them as an indie developer as opposed to a subsidiary of Nexon, this may be re-added, but constitutes original research beyond the written content of the sources until then. Waysiders (talk) 23:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Eurogamer: "Dave the Diver has been making waves since its full release on Steam last month, and the indie game has sold over 1m copies in its first 10 days." This cited in the article.  Please see above.  Your original research on what qualifies a company as "indie" irrelevant.  Wikipedia goes by reliable sources say, and the sources say this is an indie game by an indie developer.  If you disagree, you can complain to the sources. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:20, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There isn't a single source cited which actually describes Mintrocket as an indie game developer. "Indie developer Mintrocket, a subsidiary of Nexon" is a direct contradiction in terms, and the first half is not actually supported by the sources cited. While the game is referred to as indie, and the source would justify that, no mention of the term indie developer exists in there. Please avoid engaging in original research, including analysis and synthesis beyond the scope of the text. A source is required to make this claim. Waysiders (talk) 00:54, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Why are you lying? "It’s a lovely single-player adventure RPG made by indie developer MINTROCKET".  Quoted in the citation itself.  If you remove this again, I will ask an uninvolved administrator to block you. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:12, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Obviously did not see this new source which you added only *after* your previous message and reverting/edit warring, thanks for pointing it out and it does address the issue. Referring to others who politely contest something you're doing as liars and slapping down threats is not great from an admin, I would avoid going from zero to 100 in these scenarios. Waysiders (talk) 01:25, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Disappointing to see the way you're being treated, @Waysiders, particularly from an administrator. Another editor below has corrected the article to remove mentions of "indie developer" . Hopefully it stays. 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 04:26, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Occasionally people get out of the wrong side of the bed in the morning, and I suppose that must apply to this person, who spends their time mopping up a lot of vandalism. No hard feelings, but dealing with me in such a needlessly unpleasant and personally accusatory manner seemed way out of proportion, especially before they had even sourced their claims. It's super offputting when no harm was meant. The main thing is that the article now does fair justice to the viewpoint that this isn't an indie game (with better sourcing than I came across), which is all I was looking to achieve. Waysiders (talk) 19:55, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Confirmed not an indie
I have removed mentions of Mintrocket being an indie developer as they have confirmed that they are not an indie developer in an interview by a Korean video game news site. Here's that part of the interview translated using DeepL Translate:

Q. Director Hwang Jae-ho's bio says that he will continue to release games with indie sensibilities, what do you think? [Vice President Daehwon Kim] We may look like an indie, but we're not. I don't think innovation happens out of hunger, and I hope that bold challenges will be made within the big, solid walls of Nexon. [https://www.gametoc.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=69776#:~:text=%5B%EA%B9%80%EB%8C%80%ED%9B%A4%20%EB%B6%80%EC%82%AC%EC%9E%A5%5D%20%EC%9D%B8%EB%94%94%20%EA%B0%99%EC%95%84%20%EB%B3%B4%EC%9D%BC%20%EC%88%98%EB%8A%94%20%EC%9E%88%EC%A7%80%EB%A7%8C%20%EA%BC%AD%20%EA%B7%B8%EB%A0%87%EC%A7%80%EB%8A%94%20%EC%95%8A%EB%8B%A4.%C2%A0%EB%B0%B0%EA%B3%A0%ED%94%94%20%EC%86%8D%EC%97%90%EC%84%9C%20%ED%98%81%EC%8B%A0%EC%9D%B4%20%EC%9D%BC%EC%96%B4%EB%82%9C%EB%8B%A4%EA%B3%A0%EB%8A%94%20%EC%83%9D%EA%B0%81%ED%95%98%EC%A7%80%20%EC%95%8A%EC%9C%BC%EB%A9%B0%2C%20%EB%84%A5%EC%8A%A8%EC%9D%B4%EB%9D%BC%EB%8A%94%20%ED%81%AC%EA%B3%A0%20%EB%8B%A8%EB%8B%A8%ED%95%9C%20%EC%9A%B8%ED%83%80%EB%A6%AC%EC%95%88%EC%97%90%EC%84%9C%20%EA%B3%BC%EA%B0%90%ED%95%9C%20%EB%8F%84%EC%A0%84%EC%9D%B4%20%EC%9D%B4%EB%A4%84%EC%A7%80%EA%B8%B8%20%EB%B0%94%EB%9E%80%EB%8B%A4.%20%EC%8B%9C%EA%B0%84%EC%97%90%20%EC%AB%93%EA%B8%B0%EB%8A%94%20%EC%9D%B8%EB%94%94%20%EA%B2%8C%EC%9E%84%EB%B3%B4%EB%8B%A4%20%EC%9C%A0%EB%A6%AC%ED%95%9C%20%ED%99%98%EA%B2%BD%20%EC%86%8D%EC%97%90%EC%84%9C%20%EC%B5%9C%EB%8C%80%ED%95%9C%20%EA%B0%9C%EB%B0%9C%EC%9E%90%20%EB%B6%84%EB%93%A4%EC%9D%B4%20%EC%B0%BD%EC%9D%98%EC%84%B1%EC%97%90%20%EC%A7%91%EC%A4%91%ED%95%A0%20%EC%88%98%20%EC%9E%88%EB%8F%84%EB%A1%9D%20%ED%95%98%EB%8A%94%20%EA%B2%83%EC%9D%B4%20%ED%9A%8C%EC%82%AC%EC%9D%98%20%EB%AA%A9%ED%91%9C%EB%8B%A4.%C2%A0%EA%B0%9C%EC%9D%B8%EC%A0%81%EC%9C%BC%EB%A1%9C%20%EB%82%AD%EC%A4%91%EC%A7%80%EC%B6%94%EB%9D%BC%EB%8A%94%20%EB%A7%90%EC%9D%84%20%EC%A2%8B%EC%95%84%ED%95%98%EB%8A%94%EB%8D%B0%2C%20%EC%A3%BC%EB%A8%B8%EB%8B%88%20%EC%86%8D%EC%97%90%EC%84%9C%20%EC%82%90%EC%A0%B8%EB%82%98%EC%98%AC%20%EC%A0%95%EB%8F%84%EB%A1%9C%20%EB%82%A0%EC%B9%B4%EB%A1%9C%EC%9A%B4%20%EB%B6%84%EC%9D%84%20%EC%B0%BE%EB%8A%94%EB%8D%B0%20%EC%A3%BC%EB%A0%A5%ED%95%98%EA%B3%A0%20%EC%9E%88%EB%8B%A4. Link] to that specific part of the interview (in Korean). Sconedrel (talk) 19:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

New gameplay section
, where does this source mention "cleaning tables" or "topping off wasabi"? Can you quote the exact lines from the source? Because the previous gameplay section was meticulously sourced, and yours looks like it's not an improvement. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:08, 12 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Added a review from The Guardian that specifically mentions the wasabi. Wonchop (talk) 02:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So, basically, you're just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Keep in mind you've already been given a final warning for this. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)