Talk:David A. Johnston

Untitled
If he held a Ph.D, should he be referred to as "Dr. David Johnston?" 152.1.223.8 (talk) 03:18, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Gerry or Jerry Martin?
when searching for W6TQF some webpages gives jerry as forename —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.64.179.4 (talk) 12:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I saw that too. His full name was Gerald O. Martin. I've seen both Gerry and Jerry. Possibly both were used. Carcharoth (talk) 04:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Is there an article on him we can wikilink to? Noel (talk) 01:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Johnston Ridge Observatory
This article here may help with the history of the observatory and visitor centre. "The U.S. Forest Service, which operates the Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument, closed Coldwater Ridge permanently in 2007, just 14 years after it opened." Ah, that is something different. "Skamania County Commissioner Paul Pearce, who co-chaired the committee, said the Johnston Ridge Observatory, which opened a few years after Coldwater Ridge, serves much the same purpose as Coldwater did. “I think there are different uses for those facilities,” Pearce said." And not to do with Johnston so much, but more the upcoming anniversary, I found this. Carcharoth (talk) 14:38, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't know anything about the documentary The Eruption of Mount St. Helens!, and I suspect Johnston's story is only mentioned in passing in that film, but thought it was worth mentioning. If that film has documentary footage of him, it might be worth mentioning in the article. The best article I found on the visitor centres (one of which, the Johnston Ridge Observatory, was names after Johnston) is here (I added that to the article. And I added in a cited reference to the 2006 docudrama series Surviving Disaster. Jars a bit, as he didn't survive, but it does actually feature his story quite heavily. Carcharoth (talk) 15:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried (and failed) to find out exactly when the ridge was named in Johnston's honour. What I did find was that the place where he was observing from was variously called the "Coldwater II observation post" or the "Coldwater II ridge". I also found out that the JRO (Johnston Ridge Observatory) was opened in May 1997 (see here) and there is more here on the JRO, but that the other references to a Johnston observatory are sometimes referring to the Cascades Volcano Observatory (CVO) in Vancouver, also named in his honour in 1982 (see here). Hopefully what I put in the article has cleared up that point of potential confusion. I'm going to add details of the JRO memorial, and the co-ords, and that will be it from me for a bit. Oh, and I found a very dark image of the inside of the JRO with the view out of the observation window. Not sure if that is suitable for this article or not (it is kind of the view Johnston would have had). Carcharoth (talk) 16:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Location and timing
Is it possible to pinpoint the location and timing more precisely. Geographical co-ordinates for Johnston Ridge would be good. And are there any estimates as to how long from the time of the eruption to the time the pyroclastic flows reached Johnston? There is a graphic I've included here, and I wondered if Johnston Ridge is on that. Also, an actual picture of the eruption would seem logical, but from the absence of a picture of the eruption on the main article, I presume the iconic pictures are all copyrighted? Carcharoth (talk) 15:24, 3 April 2010 (UTC) There is a nice picture of the eruption here
 * Co-ordinates for the Johnston Ridge Observatory are easy to find: . There is a good map here. Description of the visitor centres here. Description of the Johnston Ridge Observatory here. And finally, a webcam from the JRO here (it is snowing this weekend, it says). Johnston will be named on actual memorials at one or more of these visitor centres. Will try and track down a picture of the memorial. Carcharoth (talk) 15:36, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Some pictures from Flickr (to give an idea of what is out there, or what could be taken): close-up of memorial with volcano in background, the official monument inscription (I think), and a similar picture (very atmospheric). A full view of the memorial with the names inscribed on it is on this page. One of the pages said Johnston was killed "42 seconds" after his radio call was made. Presumably there is a time somewhere for when the radio signal was lost? Carcharoth (talk) 15:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Location of Johnston Ridge
Is there an accepted way to integrate the coords of Johnston Ridge into the article? I've only ever put coords in infoboxes, not in article text, so I'm not sure how to do that. The co-ords (using the 'reliable' method of dropping down from orbit to find the place on Google Maps) are "46.275632,-122.217187". You can get right down to a 50 metre scale on Google Maps. I would convert that into a coord template, but I have to pop out for a moment. Carcharoth (talk) 17:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The other point is that it is very easy to confuse references to the Cascades Volcano Observatory (CVO) and the Johnston Ridge Observatory (JRO). The former is the USGS offices in Vancouver. The latter is the visitor centre built on the ridge where the Coldwater II observation post was located (where Johnston was when the volcano erupted). Both observatories are named after Johnston, so references to the "Johnston Observatory" need to be clear which one is being referred to. Carcharoth (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Sources needed for the following

 * "Ham radio operator Jerry Martin observed the lateral blast overtaking Johnston's camp. Though Johnston's remains have never been found, remnants of his USGS trailer were found by state highway workers in 1993."
 * This is in the lead section but not in the main text of the article and is currently not sourced. Carcharoth (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ (by Ceranthor). Carcharoth (talk) 20:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "Just prior to his departure, at 7 pm on the evening of May 17, 13 1/2 hours before the eruption, Glicken took a photograph of Johnston sitting with a computer on his lap, smiling."
 * If this refers to the lead image used in the article, then we need a source for this, as from what I can see when you expand the image, he is holding a pen and writing in a notebook, not using a computer (did they even have laptops then?). Carcharoth (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Replaced with "notebook". Yeah, "laptop" was absurd and not in the source. Awickert (talk) 03:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Book on the people affected by the eruption
There is a book here titled Echoes of fury: the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens and the lives it changed forever (Frank Parchman, 2005). With some amazing pictures of the destruction and the people involved. It also has several references to Johnston. Carcharoth (talk) 04:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Reid Blackburn was also a ham radio operator according to this page. Carcharoth (talk) 04:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's at my local library! I requested it be sent to my neighborhood branch, so I should have it within a day or two. Awickert (talk) 05:29, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK - I have it; feel free to get in touch with me if you want info out of it. Awickert (talk) 22:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to know if it is worth ordering myself. It looked very good, but veering a bit towards telling the story as a drama, rather than dispassionately as a history. Of course, the former style is much easier to read, but I worried a bit when reading through some of the snippets that the author might have been retelling some of the stories in his own words and dramatising what happened. Does he make clear in an introduction or after-word what his sources were? The impression I get is a mixture of newspaper stories, interviews he conducted with friends and family of the victims and survivors, and his own experiences while carrying out the research. I'm also puzzled as to why he seems to miss out a large portion of the post-event history - I was expecting an account of the 1997 opening of the JRO, but he seems to jump from the 1980s to the year 2000. Carcharoth (talk) 05:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's more a novel-style recounting of the facts of the events. Probably not what you're looking for if you want straight-up history. But it is well-written. Awickert (talk) 05:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't answer all the questions. He has a sequential listing of sources at the end of the book. I think the answer to missing '97 (possibly my favorite year ever, but I digress...) is that he's primarily following the human stories, instead of following the history and the people if their stories intertwine with it. Awickert (talk) 05:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Glicken picture
I'm not convinced that the Glicken picture is taken at the Coldwater II observation post. I haven't been able to find any source confirming where it was taken. I suspect it was somewhere else (look at the snow in the background) and was taken after the 1980 eruption on another field trip, especially given that the USGS page it is part of would have been published after Glicken died. Carcharoth (talk) 05:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It said Coldwater in one of the sources that I read, but I forgot which one it was, and I agree that they don't look alike (I was assuming that the Glicken picture was taken on the edge of a glacial lake, towards the volcano...). I'll look up the source and remove the text if it wasn't in one of the more reliable ones. Awickert (talk) 05:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Article images
I found some nice additional pictures of Johnston on the USGS site. The Commons category is here. I've added some to the article and removed some pictures to make room. There will be ways to source and add more pictures, but for now I'm trying to see if there are any more of Johnston out there. Awickert, are there any photos in the book that can at least be mentioned (though they are almost certainly not available under a free license)? Maybe we could list here the images currently used and have a wishlist for more images?


 * Currently used:
 * Photo of Johnston by his trailer (lead image)
 * Photo of Johnston using spectrometer at Mount St. Helens
 * Photo of Johnston descending into the crater
 * Photo of Johnston climbing on the bulge
 * Photo of Mount St. Helens before the eruption (could be removed to make room)
 * Landsat satellite map of the volcano marked to show Johnston's position
 * Photograph of Johnston Ridge (not very good and should be replaced)


 * Available but not used:
 * Wider version of spectrometer photo showing whole instrument (cropped version used instead)
 * Johnston sampling the crater lake (linked from crater descent caption)
 * Wider version of Johnston climbing the bulge (linked from cropped version caption)
 * Photo of Harry Glicken (removed to make room)
 * Photo of Augustine Volcano (removed to make room)
 * Picture of Mount St. Helens erupting before main eruption (removed to make room)


 * Wishlist:
 * ✅ Picture of the Johnston Ridge Observatory
 * ✅ Picture of sign used here, building in other article. Picture of the Cascades Volcano Observatory
 * ✅ Picture of the Johnston Ridge Observatory memorial
 * Picture of the Hoffstadt Bluffs memorial
 * Photographs of other scientists Johnston worked with
 * Add position of Truman and Blackburn and Martin to map image
 * Suitable photograph of the eruption itself
 * ✅ Actual eruption photo still needed. Photo of the mountain after the eruption (i.e. before, during and after photos)

I think that we are close to having enough pictures, though. I would say one memorial picture (the JRO one, preferably) and a picture of the two places named after Johnston (my preference would be the Cascades Volcano Observatory, as it should be possible to get someone in Vancouver to go there - easier than asking someone to go all the way to the JRO). Hopefully one of the uploaders of one of the Flickr pictures of the memorial will agree to release a photo under a free license. Carcharoth (talk) 17:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC) Updated: 12:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * US Forestry Service photo gallery is here. Also found some pics in the CVO archives here. None of the pictures are that great though. The only one worth uploading (in my opinion) is one of the JRO in winter. "MSH05 winter at JRO 12-09-05.jpg" from the latter page. The former (the US Forestry Service) does have an aerial shot of the JRO (picture number 72) and one of people at the JRO (number 73) and viewing the mountain (number 75), but these would only be a stopgap until a picture of the memorial itself is sourced. The one here is still the best I've found, but the photographer there appears to sells his pictures on T-shirts and postcards, so I'm not going to bother asking for a release under a free licence. I'll download and upload the JRO picture, which I think will be better than the current "grassy ridge" shot. Carcharoth (talk) 19:12, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Found two more pictures here: 2005 Open Day at CVO. The ones I'm looking at are the one of the CVO sign where Johnston's name is part of the full name of the observatory, and the photograph of an area in the lobby that commemorates Johnston, including a stylised painting. I've searched in vain for more information about this painting, and as it is undoubtedly copyright to the artist, I'm not uploading that one, but it should be mentioned in the article. I'm not sure whether it is worth having a picture of the CVO sign (it is not the most exciting picture in the world). I also added links in the external links section to article that have other photos of Johnston. There are the ones of Johnston when he first arrived (looking "like a lumberjack"), and the photo from 1978 in the Hildreth memoriam article. The photo is by a Dan Kisco (a fellow geologist). Whether or not that is a USGS picture or not, I don't know. It could be a personal photograph, so I'm not uploading that one. Carcharoth (talk) 20:34, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The photo of the front of the building could be good for the "legacy" section. At very least, please upload one of them to the Cascades Volcano Observatory article (thanks)! I'd be happy to make a new image with the positions of the others killed in the blast, but that won't be my #1 priority at the moment since I think the current one is sufficient and that the text needs work. I'll drop a message here when I finish the new image. I think that a before/during/after eruption set of pictures would add quite a lot to the article. If a picture of the rest of the monitoring crew is available, I think that this would be good as well. There is certainly enough text that there is room for more pictures. So to summarize, I would vote "yes" to adding:
 * CVO sign to "legacy" section
 * Time-lapse photos of eruption
 * Co-workers
 * Awickert (talk) 20:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I added a picture to the Cascades Volcano Observatory article (and linked the article from this one). I also uploaded a picture of the JRO, and a picture of the sign, but to make the sign picture properly visible, I had to put it in at 400 px width, which may mess up the appearance in some settings. I also added an "after" picture to go with the before picture (the USGS use this two pics as before and after as well). Haven't looked for images of co-workers yet. We have one of Glicken. Could you give a list of co-workers that were at Mount St Helens or Vancouver at the time of the eruption, and I will try and track down photos of them. What do you mean by time-lapse images of the eruption? Carcharoth (talk) 04:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

USA Today article from 2004
I found Parents of Mount St. Helens victim closely watching new rumblings, on the USA Today website but seems to be an Associated Press story originally. Has some interesting additional information, including this: "They have visited the mountain five times since the 1980 eruption, mostly for dedications and tributes." It would be good to know the details of those dedications and tributes if possible. Plus there is a quote from a former colleague Peter Lipman, who worked with Johnston back then: "We all learned some humility and respect from Mount St. Helens that day. [...] We didn't know as much as we thought we did, and we lost a terrific guy." Probably worth adding. Carcharoth (talk) 19:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not added anything from here. Leaving that for others if they think something sourced to the above would improve the article. Carcharoth (talk) 02:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Another quote from fellow scientists
Chronology of the 1980 Eruptive Activity, Excerpt from: Christiansen, R.L., and Peterson, D.W., 1981, Chronology of the 1980 Eruptive Activity: IN: Lipman, P.W., and Mullineaux, D.R., (eds.), 1981, The 1980 Eruptions of Mount St. Helens, Washington: U.S. Geological Survey Professional Paper 1250, 844p, from the acknowledgments section: ''"Among the many contributors of data, none was more essential to the systematic reconstruction of the events of 1980 at Mount St. Helens than David Johnston, to whose memory this report is dedicated. Dave, who was present through all of the activity up to the climactic eruption and who lost his life in that eruption, provided far more than data. His insights and his thoroughly scientific attitude were crucial to the entire effort; they still serve as a model for us all. "'' The scientists who wrote the paper are R. L. Christiansen and D. W. Peterson. It's a nice quote that could be added. Carcharoth (talk) 20:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And an example of data gathered by Johnston still being used: A comparison of gas geochemistry of fumaroles in the 1912 ash-flow sheet and on active stratovolcanoes, Katmai National Park, Alaska (1992): "The sampling and a part of the analyses of samples presented in this paper were carried out by David A. Johnston, U.S.G.S., before his untimely death during the 18 May, 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens." There will probably be a few more examples of this that could be worked into the article. Carcharoth (talk) 20:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * His work certainly is still being used, and I'd be happy to try to help in that vein, though I have little (read: no) volcanological expertise. That quote sounds fantastic, and maybe even lede-worthy. Awickert (talk) 20:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added the quote in the first post in this section, but not yet worked out how to make clear that his work is still being used. That may not be needed, as the article is now at a stage where I'm happy with it, so I'll leave others to see if they want to add anything like that. Carcharoth (talk) 02:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

SEAN obituary notice
I found a page that lists SEAN (Scientific Event Alert Network) and BGVN (Bulletin of the Global Volcanism Network) announcements for the deaths of volcanologists. It is here: Bulletin of the Global Volcanism Network (Special Announcements). The bit about Johnston is here, and has another nice quote: "Although only 30 years old, his PhD work on Augustine, and subsequent work with the USGS had already established his position among the leading young volcanologists in the world. His enthusiasm and warmth will be missed at least as much as his scientific strength." The reference is SEAN 05:05, and the title is "Death of David Johnston at St. Helens". I don't think any author is credited. Carcharoth (talk) 04:50, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've now added this. Carcharoth (talk) 02:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

More news stories and other sources
I'll add the memorial scholarship to the article. Carcharoth (talk) 05:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This news story tells how a helicopter pilot called Stickney made early attempts to find Johnston.
 * Used. April 11.  ceran  thor 11:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This news story covers the inquest in June 1980, and testimony from a Tom Casadevall that Johnston said some extra words after the famous phrase (I guess saying "the repeater must be out" is not so dramatic a form of last words, so maybe this got generally ignored?).
 * Two news stories here and here about the 1981 film (but not much new there).
 * From this book overview: "Proceeds from the sale of the book support the David A. Johnston scholarship fund at the University of Washington." (I found confirmation that this university memorial fund still exists, see here)
 * Yet more amazing progress as far as I can see! I'll add a few of these, but let's try not to be excessive with the story. Great work!  ceran  thor 11:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to try adding some alt text, given that these pictures are excellent and I don't think we'll be getting rid of any.  ceran  thor 12:06, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Ready?
This article could always be improved—in particular, the quotes that Carcharoth provides above would be great to include, and the second paragraph of the lede seems to ramble. But I'm getting to the point where I'm having a harder and harder time finding ways to improve the article, and I'd be happy to see it submitted as an FAC very soon. For now, my thinker is worn out, so I'm off to bed. Will happily keep going on this come morning. Awickert (talk) 06:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think so too. You two have contributed some amazing information and I'm proud to say I was able to collaborate on it.  ceran  thor 16:55, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Modesty. You wrote the basis of it. :P
 * So Ceran, could you nom? Just fiddled with the lede so I'm happier with it, and I saw your message on Sandy's talk that makes it look like we should get the ball rolling. Awickert (talk) 18:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never understood what counts to be a co-nom, but if either of you two want to include me in the nomination, please feel free. I am going to continue to work in a few things from above (as Awickert mentioned) but should be finished tonight [UTC]. Carcharoth (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC) OK, I'm done with adding to the article now. I'll go and make that clear at the FAC, so that it is clear the article has stabilised. Carcharoth (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Odds and ends
Dumping a few things here:
 * Other documentaries: (1) The Eruption of Mount St. Helens!; (2) Seconds From Disaster - idly wondering how they told Johnston's story and the other parts of the story, and whether they did any better than the other ones.
 * Iconic pictures of Mount St Helens at the moment of eruption: one of these is here. I think this is the same as an image I saw in National Geographic, but the image I remember had people in the foreground in various states of shock at what they were seeing before them. Anyway, the point here is that unlike most pictures taken on the day of the eruption (mainly of the eruption column), this is one of the actual landslide and pyroclastic flow starting to overtake the landslide (actually, I think it has already overtaken it). Anyway, that picture is copyrighted so we can't use it, but if we can find a site using it legitimately, or discussing it, it would be nice to mention it in some way, as this is the closest you can get to showing the actual event that killed Johnston. Annoyingly, I can't find the name of the photographer (possibly this is one of the Landsberg pictures).
 * We also have another article on another one of the victims: Robert Landsberg. That's another interesting story. I think that makes four of the victims that have articles now (David A. Johnston, Reid Blackburn, Harry Randall Truman and Robert Landsberg).
 * There were other iconic pictures of the eruption published in the January 1981 edition of the National Geographic, with the cover picture easy to find on the internet.
 * Carcharoth (talk) 03:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

1981 film reaction
Good source here for reaction to the 1981 film (which I've just discovered is being re-released on DVD as a 30th anniversary edition). Carcharoth (talk) 01:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Problem areas worth fixing before this gets on main page
I've run through and done some work, but I have a few outstanding issues that others may be able to address: I'm keen to see this fascinating article on the main page, but these things should definitely be looked at first. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In the "final signs" section: "Up to 400 metres (1,312 ft) of rock fell from the volcano, including the bulge." This makes no sense - 400 metres is a measure of distance. What's this about?
 * "USGS team and rescue efforts" section - the first para of this presents out of sequence - though i see the reason is to keep the narrrative around Glicken/Swanson in one place - would it be better after the short para that begins "The active Mount St. Helens was extremely different from its dormant form, now featuring an enormous bulge and several craters." (in the previous section)?
 * "Realizing the extent of the eruption, the United States government responded quickly to the events. After accepting their mistake in allowing people to stay in their homes near the volcano,..." No references for these both POV and weasely claims. Cite or remove.
 * "Several geologists, including Johnston, fought pressure for people to return to their homes the day before the eruption. Their efforts prevented the fatality count from being much higher" appears to basically repeat an earlier point. It also gives the article an excessively laudatory feel.
 * "Dr. Stephen Malone described Johnston as a "fire dog"" - this colloquialism may need an explanation - does it mean someone who follows volcanic eruptions, or does it also imply an attraction to the risks?
 * In a later section we have "Glicken was being mentored by Johnston, who relieved Glicken of his watch at the Coldwater II observation post 13 hours before Mount St. Helens erupted" - repetition that should be removed, though i understand the continuity needs to be preserved.
 * Thanks. Will aim to look at these points in the next few days. Carcharoth (talk) 06:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Responding to your points:
 * 400 m: Good catch. Was elevation change, didn't quite apply, and is already mentioned later. Removed.
 * Out-of-sequence: Currently we have the anachronism to separate the overview from the more personal stories. Arguably, both sections could be merged/rearranged. I'm going to have to think some more on this: the current writing IMO works, but I am open to all options and it is possible that something new may be better. I may be out of contact this weekend though.
 * National Monument: restricted to only what the source said, moved to end of section for chronological order.
 * Repetition: correct again, removed it.
 * "fire dog": Not that common of a colloquialism, so removed because it might confuse English speakers from different regions and/or non-native English speakers.
 * Glicken: I'm not convinced that repetition is bad here. It makes obvious the cruel irony and helps continuity. Do you have a suggestion of a better way to say this?
 * Awickert (talk) 18:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't have any particularly useful suggestion, and you've dealt with the worst of the issues. I see Carcharoth may also have a look. Good enough for me. Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 03:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, and if I get the chance to address these last two, I will. Awickert (talk) 17:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

More sources and eruption images
I was browsing through some sources and found a paper (published in a book collection) that has amazing pictures of the eruption cloud and flows as seen from Mount Adams, along with timings that show when various landmarks were reached by the avalanche and flows.
 * 'Chronology and Character of the May 18 1980 Explosive Eruptions of Mount St. Helens' (Moore and Rice) in 'Explosive volcanism: inception, evolution, and hazards' (1984) by National Research Council (U.S.). Geophysics Study Committee.

The photos (which are copyrighted) are on page 136 and are the most vivid demonstration of the power of this eruption I have ever seen. Look at the scale of the distances shown there and read the timings given in the description. There are also good diagrams here as well - figure 10.7 (page 139) in particular gives the position of Johnston and Martin relative to half-minute interval lines showing the outward progress of the pyroclastic flow, along with some amazing descriptions of the pent-up power and energy being released over that period of about four minutes.


 * I've added this paragraph to cover the above. Carcharoth (talk) 13:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Another potential source (especially on the reaction to the eruption warnings in the weeks before the eruption) is here:
 * Warning and response to the Mount St. Helens eruption (1985), Thomas Frederick Saarinen, James L. Sell

I don't have time myself to take a closer look at these, and these sources should be pointed out over at the article about the eruption, but I thought I'd add them here in case anyone has time to do anything with them. Carcharoth (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow - the eruption timing sequence is fantastic. I looked them over briefly. I agree that they could be very useful for the eruption; thanks for posting. Unfortunately, I already have quite the backlog of things to do that I need to address. But I will keep this in the back of my mind for potential future work in this topic. Awickert (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Great job
Great job to all those who worked on this article. Informative and enjoyable read -- keep up the excellent work! //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks!  ceran  thor 10:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Some featured articles contain such severe flaws that they make one question the value of "featured" status. This article is not one of them. This is a fine example of Wikipedia's best work. --Doradus (talk) 13:55, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Bulbasaur is not a featured article. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That is off-topic. Let's talk about it here.  --Doradus (talk) 14:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you all
Hello, I just wanted to say thank you all. Seeing this on the main page today took me back. I was four years old when I heard Mt. Saint Helens erupt, from 150 miles away. We actually heard it several times, as we heard echoes as well. The house shook. We turned on the TV, and there it was. The newscasters were talking about Johnston immediately. I've been to the Johnston Observatory and the site as an adult, and have always thought of him as a hero in a field where heroism is uncommon, because it is largely unnecessary. I think this article is a fitting tribute to his memory. Thanks again. ɳorɑfʈ Talk! 05:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks.  ceran  thor 10:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion
In the section titled "Life and career", there are two short sentences that break up the flow of the first paragraph and are unrelated to each other: "Johnston grew up with one sister. He never married." Could someone fix this? Lawlar (talk) 06:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Scooted them around. Not sure if it's the best fix, so please go ahead if you have a better idea. Awickert (talk) 06:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it. It reads more smoothly now. Lawlar (talk) 06:56, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations
What a splendid article - interesting, well written and informative. I had not heard of David A. Johnston before, but now feel I could answer exam questions on him! 81.129.135.62 (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Just one thought - can we have more about his achievements in the infobox rather than just highlighting his cause of death. I know some might argue he is only really notable because of it (I don't agree); the infobox seems to reinforce this view. 81.129.135.62 (talk) 07:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If I could wait until after the main page stint is done, I'd prefer that. Thanks a lot for the compliment!  ceran  thor 10:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Recording of "Vancouver! Vancouver! This is it!"?
Is there an audio recording of the "Vancouver! Vancouver! This is it!" quote? --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 12:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there is! That's a wonderful idea; I'll try to find it when I'm next free.  ceran  thor 19:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The various documentaries would include the various recordings, presuming the relevant broadcasts from the monitoring posts were recorded of course. Carcharoth (talk) 01:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Who fought to re-open the area?
The article says "convinced the authorities to close Mount St. Helens to the general public and to maintain the closure in spite of heavy pressure to re-open the area; their work saved thousands of lives". Who was responsible for the 'heavy pressure to re-open'? I think it would be good to publicly humiliate those people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.67.104.4 (talk) 13:06, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Humiliating those people is not necessary, but the lesson learned is this: when in doubt trust a scientist, not a politician. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.20.108.30 (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it was residents and politicians and loggers who wanted to reopen the area. For more on all this, a good source appears to be:


 * Warning and response to the Mount St. Helens eruption (1985), Thomas Frederick Saarinen, James L. Sell
 * The conclusions section (while not full available in preview) does give a good idea of the pressures on those setting the boundaries of the Red and Blue zones. Also, search within that book and elsewhere for "Red Zone" and "Blue Zone" in relation to this eruption, and that should help. Carcharoth (talk) 01:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

"...saved thousands of lives" Source
The text reads in part..."general public and to maintain the closure in spite of heavy pressure to re-open the area; their work saved thousands of lives."

I'd strongly suggest that the simple qualifier "possibly" be inserted.

There is no way of knowing how many peoppe would have been in the area early on a Sunday morning in mid-May. Does the writer know how many people were usually at that location on a day such as that...say, as opposed to a Saturday in the summer? And how many people wpould have been there with ongoing volcanic activity? I'd like to think that people aren't that stupid to completely rely on a government issued closure to protect themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bassetman4 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Possibly" is weak. I'd rather see this "thousands" estimate cited.  --Doradus (talk) 23:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It is cited, just at the end of the paragraph (because the source applies to more than just this estimate). Awickert (talk) 00:31, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The "thousands" bit is sourced (as Awickert has pointed out). I don't think this exact number is attributable to Johnston and the efforts of the USGS myself, mainly because even they underestimated the power of the eruption. Many of the victims of the eruption were outside the designated zones (I think it was only 2 or 4 people actually inside the inner "Red Zone" - there was also a "Blue Zone") and were either caught by the blast because it was so large, or were killed by the lahars that ran downstream for many kilometres along river valleys. What really reduced the death toll was the eruption happening on a Sunday, as a day later there would have been hundreds of loggers operating outside the restricted zones, but still within the zone that was blasted by the volcano. There was, however, pressure to allow residents and others access inside even the restricted zones, and, IIRC, a group of people were on their way that very day to demand access to their homes. An initial source for this could be this op-ed: "'Residents near the mountain that were evacuated were allowed to return on Saturday, May 17, to retrieve belongings from their homes. Another trip in to the 'Red Zone', an area established by then Governor Dixie Lee Ray as 'prohibited access', was scheduled on the morning of May 18 for around 10 A.M.'" For more on all this, a good source appears to be:
 * Warning and response to the Mount St. Helens eruption (1985), Thomas Frederick Saarinen, James L. Sell
 * Also, if you look at some of the articles published this week to mark the 30th anniversary of the eruption, several mention a booklet published in 1978, warning that Mount St. Helens was likely to erupt and what the consequences could be. Here it is:
 * Potential Hazards from Future Eruptions of Mount St. Helens Volcano, Washington (Dwight R. Crandell and Donal R. Mullineaux, 1978), U.S. Geological Survey Bulletin 1383-C, 26p.
 * Apparently, many people thought the volcano wasn't going to erupt, silly as it sounds now. You have to remember that volcanoes can and do grumble and rumble a bit and then go quiet again. The activity at this volcano between 2004 and 2008 is a good example of that. Carcharoth (talk) 01:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

"Possibly" is not weak. No one knows how many people could have been there at the time of the eruption. It's basic journalism...if you don't know and this number seems to be unknowable though guesses and estimates abound..."possibly" is a honest way to qualify the number. In places this article reads like a fan website...lets not overstate...or ubderstate...Johnson's work and warnings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bassetman4 (talk • contribs) 15:39, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be adverse to expanding the details here, but it needs to be sourced. I've done some digging and found the following:
 * Timing of eruption saved a lot of loggers' lives (this goes into detail on the often-quoted claim that more people would have died had the eruption not taken place on a Sunday)
 * Warning and response to the Mount St. Helens eruption (Thomas F. Saarinen - appears to be a copy or precursor to the 1985 paper of the same title I linked above) - this paper directly says that estimates of the lives saved by the establishment of the restricted zone varied from a "few hundred to as high as 100,000" (the details are on page 5 of that document).
 * What I would like to see is more on the setting up and management of the Red and Blue Zones (and the role played by politicians, scientific agencies, government and local agencies, and how the police managed things on the ground), but only parts of that would be relevant in this article. Most would go in the eruption article. Carcharoth (talk) 03:50, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Recent articles marking 30th anniversary
Am listing here several recent articles that were published (or republished) to mark the 30th anniversary. Would be good to see more new sources listed here or at the eruption article. Carcharoth (talk) 01:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * National Geographic article from 1981 (excellent article)
 * 30th anniversary site from TDN (local newspaper - excellent resource)

Chronology
A question about the "Eruption" section - would it not make more sense to order the events chronologically? As things stand, the first paragraph of "USGS team and rescue efforts" reads like a leap back in time, as we've already read about the eruption itsel by that time.

I can see the argument that the section is split into geological / human interest mini-sections. However, I would point out that this article is about the man rather than the eruption, so the sequence of events should be focussed on him and details of the eruption itself should be included only as relevant to David A. Johnston and his personal chrononolgy.

So I think my suggestion would be to move the first "USGS team and rescue efforts" paragraph might be better placed further up, possibly splitting it to insert each part in its relevant spot in the timeline. Thoughts?

Great article and a fascinating read, by the way. Really enjoyed it! SteveRwanda (talk) 11:11, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I have thought about this a lot, but have not given it the time to pick it apart and piece it back together. I do think that you are correct: there should be some good way to make this all chronological. If you want to take a stab at it, be my guest! I'll be happy to help, just leave a message on my talk. But my current real-life and on-wiki obligations are currently too many to start this as a new project by myself. Awickert (talk) 18:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Believe that was my contribution. I agree.  ceran  thor 03:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Gerry Martin's radio broadcast
I think for the purposes of illustration, we should expand the portion of Gerry Martin's HAM radio broadcast transcript to include the full version. I have a video copy available of the actual recording from a KOMO TV documentary, and it clearly illustrates the speed at which the blast travelled, as there's no stops in the recording at all.Srosenow 98 (talk) 08:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

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Be respectful, pls
Please be respectful of David's memory. Adding in "beliefs" is not appropriate. The only accurate depiction of him is his biography, released 2019 by Univ of IL Press. OLIL49er (talk) 15:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

comments on finding pieces of his camper
The comments regarding construction workers found pieces of his camper while extending SR 504 have been discounted as his in a number of news articles. I believe that that statement needs to be highlighted as unproven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.35.5 (talk) 19:46, 25 October 2023 (UTC)