Talk:David Beckham/Archive 1

Opening comments
He is a "meterosexual"????

The front page of USA Today on Friday May 9th stated that Beckham is the most famous athlete in the world, except in the USA. I had seen the movie Bend It Like Beckham a few weeks ago, so I had heard of him, but I had not realized that he was not a fictional character until I saw that story three days ago. So USA Today was probably right. Michael Hardy 22:34 May 12, 2003 (UTC) Should "World Club Championship" be "World Cup Championship"?

No, he was sent off in the World Club Championship. January 7, 2000 in the game against Necaxa for a thigh-high challenge against Jose Milan in the 42nd minute, if you care.

-- "They have two sons, Brooklyn ... and Romeo". Isn't "Romeo" an unusual name for a boy? S. tjgthghgb Everything about Beckham is unusual.. webkid 14:25 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Er.. more unusual for a girl. See Romeo and Juliet.Rich  Farmbrough 14:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it FC Barcelona, or Real Madrid??

Antonio High Life Martin Real Madrid! not Barca. Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 19:43 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

BBC news confirm he *will* sign for Real Madrid. He is in Japan at the moment (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2999514.stm) so hasn't yet done so. Muppet 09:57 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

- POV ALERT

Mr Beckham, is without a doubt the most overated human being/footballer on the planet. -fonzy

END OF POV ALERT

Good thing you warned me. I wouldn't have noticed otherwise ;-) Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick

Well, I don't think his football ability is rated highly anyway. -- whkoh 09:44 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

IMHO, Beckham is a good player but there are many more better footballers than him! webkid 14:25 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

TEXT FROM DELETED PAGE IN CASE ANYONE WANTS TO MERGE IT:

Romeo Beckham (born September 1, 2002) is the second son of footballer David Beckham and former Spice Girl Victoria Beckham.

The pregnancy was covered intensely by the British press. Bold text

New homepage pic
Does anyone else think that there should be a better/bigger homepage pic of Becks, probably without the woolly hat on? Wattylfc 11:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Penalty Misses
Somebody's added the penalty miss v Portugal t'other day. Am I right in saying that was his 3rd international penalty miss in a row?

Also, for the future benefit of talk page readers wishing to know the underground history of our heroes. I saw the England v Croatia Euro 2004 game, and people might be interested to know that every time Victoria Beckham appeared on the screen the whole of the very large, very packed South East London pub crowd booed their heads off. --bodnotbod 20:34, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

Possible wikispam?
I am uncertain how everyone will feel about this, but the news article link that was just added to entertainment dash news dot org was added by somebody going through and linking to his (minimally useful) site on several celebrity articles. In most cases he provided a link to an alleged general news site for the celebrity in question, sites which basically give the equivalent of a Google news search with a bunch of additional articles that also claim to be related but are not. I'm removing these links, but since the link on this page actually goes to a real article, I'm going to leave it. Jdavidb 20:36, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

His affair with Rebecca Loos
I don't see it mentioned a single bit in the article. There was a big ruckus back then. Anyone care to contribute?
 * Was there ever any evidence, apart from Loos' claim, that there was any truth in it? -- Arwel 21:35, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

that affair, only Loos' word, and she got payed a lot for that. I don't think Loos should be mentioned in this article. It's an unfounded claim, possibly (probably) insulting to the Beckham family. Wikipedia does run a risk making an echo of such unfounded claims. It's supposed to report facts, not gossip. I'm going to take it down unless someone can prove to me the value of keeping the gossip about Loos up.


 * About facts: It is a fact she made the allegations, and it is a fact he dismissed them, both views which are presented in the article. And that is what an encyclopedia should do, to show what has hapened neutrally and then let people make up their own minds. Removing it because you think Beckham might not like it here, is censorship as I see it, when the only thing done is citing news sources. The main point for me is, that both sides are quoted on a matter which was pretty big as it went on, and if people want to read about Beckham, it would be skewed if they did not get to read the full story. Poulsen 11:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. The fact is that Beckham is about as famous for his off-field behaviour as he is for his actual playing career. This article is too chained to a dull chronological format, listing one season after another after another. This is 'factual' by and large yes, but it shouldn't ignore the fact that the cult of celebrity surrounding Beckham is possibly the greatest factor of all. On playing terms alone Beckham has been no better than numerous other players, but in terms of celebrity he has been unprecedented. Gunstar hero 13:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
The page was vandalized... does anyone know how to link to the original picture?

How come the page has no photo?

Removed Vandalism Bowersj8 14:23, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Negative comments
This article is wholly positive and comment must be made of

His extramarital affairs (not necessarily bad in themselves) - but coupled with a media-promoted image of family wholesomness.

His rank unprofessionalism - his frequent arrogent dissent against officals, his undue influence on the England team tactical plans, the kick in '98, the "clever" foul in '03, his consistent refusal to play on the right of midfield. Generally, the negative effect of his ego on the performance of the England team as a whole.

The merit of his OBE - he has never lifted a trophy as England captain.

Only Bobby Moore has ever lifted a trophy as England Captain.


 * As far as I know, it has never been proven that he has had any extramarital affairs. I would not believe anything published in the likes of the News of the World unless it had a certificate of authenticity signed by the Pope and the Dalai Lama, especially since his accusers seem to be making the allegations for what they can get from the papers. As to the WC '98 foul and the sending off against Wales in '03, have you tried reading the article? Both incidents are fully described in it. -- Arwel 10:11, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm no fan of the NOTW. However, the standard of "proof" you require is unclear. I propose a simple test to any tabloid allegation, namely this: did the impugned celebrity sue for libel? Beckham has not sued the NOTW or any other paper for libel even though they have openly alleged his extramartial affairs. And the camera does not lie - he has been photographed kissing an unnamed female (or "saying hello to a fan" as he explained it) - it looked pretty unequivocal. I suspect an unreconstructed Beckham-worshipper wrote this article and it is an abomination.

The girl photographed was interviewed the next day by the same paper and said she was just a fan saying hello. It was a small article inside the paper because it was not scandalous, therefore not newsworthy.

And he isn't the big huplah in the US that the media makes him look. People in the US couldn't care less about Soccer or Beckham. Pretty much everyone on ESPN didn't care about him coming, and no one I talk to ever mentions him.

Please, cleanup
This article doesn't have a single pic, no mention of his extramarital affairs, his negative aspects as mentioned above. It seems to be totally focussing on his positive side and is somewhat POV. PLEASE HELP!!!!!--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 ($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|)  05:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

such an incredibly inaccurate article ... sadly i dont have sufficient knowledge of Beckham to edit this page. Someone (preferably someone who doesnt hate Beckham) needs to edit it.

What do you mean saying that Beckham is a good father and a supporter of good causes "despite is gauche lifestyle"? Left-wing persons are good, right-wing are ususally closed, bad persons, oppressive parents and enemies of poor people! Your ideas seem a little confused!

POV notes
No use pretending that there can be NPOV on Beckham, more accurate to report the differing POV.

1. Teenage girls, team-mates and sycophantic journalists (Henry Winter) unconditionally love Beckham. They overlook his bad points and elevate him to the status of a God among men.

2. ManYoo / Real / (some) England fans, some commentators - think he is basically an OK bloke, a bit thick, but a world class player

3. Old-fashioned football purists - dislike his substitution of celebrity for talent. Regard him as an excellent crosser of the ball, and probably a nice personable chap, but NOT genuinely world class due to his many faults: temperament, inability to tackle, poor one-touch short passing, weak leadership, rank indiscipline - just to name his faults in football.

4. Those who hate him without condition - jealously or something else.

Major edit
I'd like to get this article up to featured status, but there's a lot of work to do. I'd like to merge the England stuff in with his club career and create new sections, but thought I'd mention it here first and see if anyone had any objections. If I've not heard anything in a few days I'll go ahead. CTOAGN 12:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Looking at it again, I'd like to merge all the sections, including the celebrity stuff, chronologically. The reason is that they often need to refer to each other.  For example, you can't write about his deteriorating relationship with Ferguson in detail without mentioning his marriage (and allegedly missing a match to babysit while his wife went shopping) or write about the stick he got at United matches in '99 without mentioning his sending off against Argentina.  CTOAGN 01:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Haha, I was just thinking that myself when doing some cleanup just now, I should have checked here first. Go for it. Qwghlm 18:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. It's shown up a few gaps in the article - there are seasons where he won the league and no football is mentioned.  This article's going to be huge by the time it's ready for FAC (if it ever gets there.) CTOAGN 01:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's too long, and contains too much gossip column materials and speculations. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Mandel 09:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I think this page seriously needs to go back to the old format of having headings like "Personal Life" etc, instead of chronological headings. Every other article uses the former setup although everyone's life has events from different sections that refer to each other, Beckham is no different. The other format is standardized through Wikipedia and much easier to find specific information ("I want to read about his marriage to Victoria. Now when did that happend again?  2000?  2001?  Dammit.")  Canthony 15:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't want to go back to separate sections - in Beckham's case they're all too closely linked. I'll put a few more sub-headings in though - should make it easy to find what you're looking for.  The wedding needs expanding into at least a paragraph anyway. CTOAGN 13:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I totally disagree. I agree with Canthony.  As of now, a season-by-season structure is too football-centric for people who knows nuts about football (the very people this encyclopedia is supposed to benefit).  I took one good look at the article and decided not to go through it in detail.  Merely glimpsing through it gives me headaches.  Must I wield through all those garbage before I find something about his personal life, like his marriage with Victoria and Rebecca Loos.  Who on earth remembers which season he marries Victoria Adams except die-hard soccer fans? Structurally if this stays like this I'll never support the feature article status. Mandel 10:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Useful site for editors
Timeline of Beckham's career on BBC website

Becks being popular in Asia
David Beckham's fame and popularity reached the very top in Japan during the 2002 FIFA World Cup. Maybe someone can expand on this and maybe can take it further by showing the impact that is Beckham to the rest of the World.

Category:Jewish-British people
I've removed Category:Jewish-British people &mdash; as far as I can check, his mothers' father was Jewish, though her mother was not, which means thst neither DB nor his mother are Jewish. -- Arwel (talk) 02:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Dude, he's still an Ethnic Jew. Paulus Caesar 15:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

So was Hitler (possibly) as it is believed that his paternal grandfather was Jewish. Should we add Hitler to a Jewish-Austrian category? That may be a daft example. I think Hitler's father was illegitimate and therefore it's almost impossible to fully verify this, but Beckham isn't a practising Jew. hedpeguyuk 18:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hes actually been quoted as saying hes more Jewish than any other religion. Therefore, he is Jewish, because its his choice. It used to mention this somewhere in the article, im surpirsed it was removed. Either way, there should be some reference to his partial 'ethnic' Jewish roots in the article. Hitler was Jewish? That sounds stupid

Take most 'off the cuff' Beckham remarks with a bit of scepticism, people! He once said in a magazine interview: "We want to get our sons baptized, but we're not sure into what religion yet." I think that kind of indicates his basic non-comprehension of what religion is! Hmmn, he may well have said that he's a bit Jewish when posh spice was going through her Kaballah phase. Anyway, he's certainly got a big crucifixion scene tattooed on his back, hasn't he. --The globetrotter 00:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Hitler as ethnically Jewish, stupid, well that's because they don't teach you things like that at school. He MAY have been Jewish, his father was the illegitimate son of a man who was probably Jewish. Remember, this is Austria/Germany/Hungary, there were lots of Jews around anyway with a bit of mixing. But yeah, Hitler's paternal grandfather, it is believed was Jewish. His son. Hitler's father, physically abused Hitler, Hitler somehow knew of the possibility that his grandfather was Jewish, hated his father (because of the beatings) and then made a subconscious link to Jewish blood/Jews and his own physical abuse - hence his hatred of them. That's my theory anyway. Probaby a load of bull, it was probably just simple anti-semitism. Going back to David Beckham, if someone can find a source for his "Jewishness" then of course it should be added. hedpeguyuk 23 June 2006 21:13 (UTC)

- http://english.sem40.ru/jewish_fortune/8564/ http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/53732004.htm http://www.manutdzone.com/legends/DavidBeckham.htm http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=1290 http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/world/2003-05-08-beckham_x.htm

i dont think he should be put in a category of Jewish-British people though, just it should be mentioned osmewhere in the article as it is fairly interesting/relevant information

Can anyone explain why it is relevant to note he has a Jewish grandparent if he wasn't raised Jewish? We're not the Gestapo hunting down people's distant ancestries. If he had a Norwegian grandparent, would anyone really put "His grandfather was Norweigian."? 141.213.212.42 13:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Under Jewish law a person is Jewish only if his/her mother is Jewish, or that person converts to Judaisim. Since his mother and her mother were not jewish and he hasen't converted, David Beckham is not Jewish. And it's a myth that Hitler's Father was Jewish, his fathers doctor was Jewish. The myth was started by those who want to blame the Jews for there own genocide, and avoid any guilt of there own.--68.194.99.234 05:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Goldenballs
Is it worth adding this as one of his nicknames, or would it be a cheap shot? Estrellador* 13:14, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I just once recall hearing it, from an English commentator when Beckham scored a goal. Peoplesunionpro 17:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks like it has already been added. It is used quite frequently by the press; for example a quick search engine check: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/sport.html?in_article_id=363733&in_page_id=1867 "It's a Goldenballs-up". I'm not sure of the precise origin. I think Victoria may have used it first, in fact. Also it is usually used as one world rather than two like in the current version of the Wikipedia article. Gunstar hero 13:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Unclear section
From the second paragraph:

"Beckham's exit was described as "the longest walk off a pitch ever". Simeone later admitted he had intentionally dove. He became, for a time, figure of public hatred among many English football supporters. He continued to play well and helped United win the league, FA Cup, and UEFA Champions League the following year."

So who became a figure of public hatred? Simeone for the dive or Beckham for the red card? Then who continued to play well? I assume it's Beckham but it's not a 100% clear there either. I was going to fix it but the hated section is just too confusing CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 04:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was DB. -- Arwel (talk) 11:14, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * OK so DB continued to play well but who was hated? The assumption I would have is Simeone but it's not clear as the article is about DB. Think of it from the angle of someone for whom English is not their first language. English is my only language but the majority of people I know have English as their second and sentences like that can cause confusion. I sometimes get a friend to read through some of the articles to see if they can understand them and that sentence was pointed out to me. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's not totally clear. As far as I remember Simeone was hated by the press, but Beckham was also 'blamed' for England's defeat (which was a really tenuous notion, but one which remained enduringly popular especially from people who didn't really watch the game).

In some ways Beckham's 'sending off' was one of the events that brough him such a huge public profile in England/Britain. In his later career this event would often be referred to as some kind of anchor or catalyst to his later success. The article doesn't seem to make much of this.

Gunstar hero 13:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticism section
I've commented out the following as it's full of personal opinions and a bit of a rant:

''Many critics argue that Beckham's fame is a direct result of him being a pop-star footballer, that is, he is better known for his pop-star looks and marketing potential than his actual ability on the field. Critics including the likes of Thierry Henry and Samuel Eto'o also point out that other than Beckham's expertise in dead-ball situations (ie. corners and free-kicks) he contributes nothing towards other areas as his defensive skills are poor and he lacks the pace and dribbling ability usually associated with wide midfielders. Some critics also believe that Real Madrid signed Beckham more for his off-field ability than on it, i.e. to sell more Real Madrid jerseys and to crack to the lucrative Asian market where Beckham had a large number of existing fans.''

''Further more, Beckham's soft-spoken character has led to doubts about his leadership quality. Despite Beckham having never captained either Manchester United or Real Madrid, Beckham was chosen by Eriksson as captain due to his relative experience as the England team was going through a rebuilding phase after Euro 2000 (Most England veterans such as Tony Adams and Alan Shearer had retired from international football). His failure to inspire his teammates in times of need against teams of real quality were evident in important tournaments such as World Cup 2002 and Euro 2004, yet Eriksson has repeatedly stuck by him. This, coupled with Beckham's increasingly erratic performances for England in recent months, has led to public outcries to demote Beckham from the captaincy and appoint a new successor in time for the 2006 World Cup. Touted heirs include Steven Gerrard and John Terry, two players arguably more influential to the England team than Beckham, as well as being more vocal and substantially younger, thus it seems that Beckham's days as Captain are numbered.''

Putting "many critics argue that..." and then slagging the guy off doesn't fit in well with Avoid weasel words. If the quotes from Henry and Eto'o are true (they sound like exaggerations) then they should be cited in the Notes section. CTOAGN (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, Henry's quote is fake because he wants beckham to have another chance for England


 * I agree that the removed text was unsubstantiated, but the fact is that anyone who spends even a brief amount of time listening to discussions of Beckham in English sporting culture and in newspapers, etc. is aware that such doubts exist and that part of Beckhan's legacy will be the dubious relationship between fame and actual on-field performance. It is necessary for these opinions to be represented, but proper sources need to be found in order that they appear as more than mere speculation.  Gunstar hero 13:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Metrosexual
If Beckham is married he should not be gay.


 * Metrosexual does not mean gay you numpty Bombot 12:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Good try but since when does being married mean a person isn't gay? many men ( and women ) marry in order to hide / deny their homosexuality - I am not sayin Beckham is gay merely that being married doesn't automatically dismiss the possibility  but point taken about metrosexuality Bombat  Ophelia105 19:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

someone please add his recent commentary about "maths"
"I think it was maths, actually. It's done totally differently to what I was taught when I was at school, and you know, I was like, 'Oh my God, I can't do this'...... etc...

-By the way whoever wrote this has their facts wrong--it was his 6 year old son. Second of all check this out:

Yes you and many others think this but read this section of an |England article from The Times..... (quote by pro soccer manager) "Anyone who calls David Beckham thick is an absolute fool,” Allardyce said. "You can’t produce what he has produced with his level of intelligence in football over the years, which is pure genius, like any other top, top player."

"'Because academically he doesn’t sound the best, he’s deemed as thick. What a load of rubbish. The way someone like Beckham or Wayne Rooney can do what they do on the football pitch, when their brain can make incredible decisions in a nanosecond, is genius.”"

quotations section
4 out of 5 quotations are negative. Is this balanced enough? 80.229.160.150 16:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

List of Honours?
Pages for most footballers have useful stuff like a list of honours won by them. Has this honestly never been done for Beckham or is there a good reason why it isn't here? aLii 19:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Fame Beyond football
I added a section called Fame Beyond Football, as this whole article was totally oriented around his career in football. Yet he is famous well beyond football. To keep it limited to just his footballing exploits would be POV.

I pulled a few scraps of stuff from throughout the article together, together with my own summary. But it dores need a bit of tighter editing.--Richardb43 05:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Beckham has a company called Footwork Productions. I know this is true, due to references of the Suunday Times Rich List, and searches on Google. I have tried adding this, but it keeps on being deleted.

waxwork
That waxwork picture makes him look like a Nazi. Jooler 15:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

He sounds like Oliver Twist.

There should also be a mention of the well-established slang phrase to which he gave rise: "back, sack and crack", refering to waxing of his back, scrotum and the crack between his buttocks to remove hair.

Also, to the infamous interview with Victoria Beckham (aka 'Posh Spice') in which she referred to his propensity for dressing up in her underwear.

Real Madrid - Trophy
Hope you don't mind, but I've moved your comment down into new section. User:TheJC (talk • contribs)

"He left the club to join Real Madrid in 2003; as of 2006 the team has yet to win a major trophy."

Doesn't this imply that real madrid havent won a major trophy yet?? Should probably be changed —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.1.82.72 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 11 Jun 2006 (UTC)

Trinidad and Tobago rating

 * despite figuring lowly in the fans' rankings on the BBC website.

I removed the above note because a) the provided ref is a self-selected internet poll and as such does not meet WP:V standards, and b) the wording was misleading; Beckham is ranked fourth highest English player in that poll. --Muchness 06:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But 16th overall. Definitely MOTM.  SLUMGUM    yap    stalk   23:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Discrepancy with Larsson's page?
User ChaChaPhut's edit places this page at odds with Larsson's - can we establish which is correct, the fifth player to score in three world cup finals or the 24th? Whatever the real picture we should at least be consistent.


 * Actually I have edited a few players' pages (although not Larsson's). I am also concerned on all the different versions I have seen here on different pages. I have posted this in other pages, but I will repeat it here hoping this will help us get it right. ChaChaFut 00:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Players who have scored in at least three world cups (First 14 not necessarily in exact order)


 * 1) Pelé 1958, 1962, 1966, 1970
 * 2) Uwe Seeler 1958, 1962, 1966, 1970
 * 3) Grzegorz Lato 1974, 1978, 1982
 * 4) Andrzej Szarmach 1974, 1978, 1982
 * 5) Joe Jordan 1974, 1978, 1982
 * 6) Dominique Rocheteau 1978, 1982, 1986
 * 7) Michel Platini 1978, 1982, 1986
 * 8) Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 1978, 1982, 1986
 * 9) Julio Salinas 1986, 1990, 1994
 * 10) Diego Maradona 1982, 1986, 1994
 * 11) Rudi Völler 1986, 1990, 1994
 * 12) Lothar Matthäus 1986, 1990, 1994
 * 13) Roberto Baggio 1990, 1994, 1998
 * 14) Jürgen Klinsmann 1990, 1994, 1998
 * 15) Gabriel Batistuta 1994, 1998, 2002
 * 16) Fernando Hierro 1994, 1998, 2002
 * 17) Sami Al-Jaber 1998, 2002, 2006
 * 18) Raúl González 1998, 2002, 2006
 * 19) Henrik Larsson 1994, 2002, 2006
 * 20) Ronaldo 1998, 2002, 2006
 * 21) David Beckham 1998, 2002, 2006

P.S. If anyone finds this inaccurate, please provide comments and corrections. Thanks

I edited David Beckhams nicknames because I heard yesterday the england squad found a new nickname for him.--Thetinyhole 13:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Captain
I've reverted a change by an anonymous user claiming that Beckham relinquished his captaincy yesterday. Has there been some sort of an annoucement is is this user mistaken. I haven't heard anything. Also, this user changed Coca-coal to Pepsi (see the quote about him being as recognisable as major MNC). This is not the first time this has happened. It's a quotation and not a list of products he advertises. If any user, with anonymous or not, reads this and is about to make the change the please don't. hedpeguyuk 2 July 2006, 10:35 (UTC)


 * You assumed bad faith by not believing him. Skinnyweed 13:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no idea how you've got that idea. - Motor (talk) 13:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well so what? The news was only breaking at the time. OK, I should have checked. Can I be blamed for showing bad faith when it's an anonymous user (many of whom are known for poorly written edits and vandalism), he wrongly edited the quote (Coca-cola to Pepsi) and didn't cite the captaincy claim. There would have been some new site that would have given details, even at that early time. It's an online encyclopaedia, it can be easily reverted. I was only playing safe. hedpeguyuk 18:00 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No idea where you're getting the Coca-Cola thing from, he's always been on Pepsi adverts around Europe. I won't change it though, I'll wait for you to confirm it. Hardfl1p 19:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Read it again. It is a quote from the source supplied. Beckham himself is a brand name "like Coca Cola and IBM". It's not a list of brands he endorses. - Motor (talk) 18:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Hello, this might be a silly question, but anyone can tell me how to pronounce his lastname as /bake-kam/ or /bake-ham/. If possible IPA might be great. Thank you. --Manop - TH 18:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't know IPA but the h is completely silent, if I wanted to spell it phonetically I would use 'bek-uhm' i.e the 2nd sylable is not pronounced as in gum but more as a grunt, most words ending in ham in English are pronounced uhm, Birmingham, Nottingham etc Bob Palin 22:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The IPA pronunciation is . --Muchness 22:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much for both of you. I really appreciate --Manop - TH 08:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Clearly a joke
Beckham's fame extends beyond the pitch; in much of the world his name is "as instantly recognisable as that of multinational companies like Coca-Cola and IBM."[2]
 * This is a real laugh. In places like the United States, China, Germany, South Africa and Russia, Coca Cola is a household name, as is Toyota or McDonalds. However, Beckham is not. Only in some parts of England would Beckham be better known than Coca Cola. Ask your children. Do they know what Coca Cola is? Do they know what Beckham is? This is like the Beatle saying they are more famous than Jesus Christ. Well, they're not! Wallie 15:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please come out of your parochial hive. Like the saying goes he is "Big, and I mean real Big in Japan". Jooler 15:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Like I've already pointed out on your talk page, do you know what Real Madrid get for replica shirt sales with "Beckham's" name on it, or Manchester United? I've been to Ghana, Kuwait, Germany and yes China and have seen a good number of RM and Man U shirts and the Man U shirts are almost unanimously Beckham no. 7 shirts. Manchester United were (I don't know if they still are) the biggest sports "brand" in the world, even bigger than the NY Yankees. Beckham's "brand" ties in with this. I think the quote is a slight exaggeration, but it does highlight his influence and marketability, something that is actually discussed in the piece from which the quote was taken. hedpeguyuk 8 July 15:34 (UTC)
 * This is all very interesting but


 * 1) Man U is bigger than Becks. He will soon be forgotten. Man U will not.
 * 2) Coca Cola is known is most countries. Becks is only known is a few. You mentioned Japan.
 * 3) David Beckham's wife is better known than him is many (most?) countries.


 * I will come back and delete this humorous stuff after a year or so, when you have all come up with a new idol, like Totti.
 * Best laugh I've had for years. Wallie 16:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

These stories perhaps sum it up :-
 * Female fans style pubic hair like Beckham's Mohican
 * Japan unveils 3m high chocolate statue of Beckham
 * Jooler 16:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

First off, Totti is past it. Secondly, Beckham isn't my idol as I already mentioned on your talk page, I don't really like the guy and I'm not really English. If you really want a list of countries then here you go. Saudi Arabia, Ghana, South Africa, China, Japan, South Korea, all of Europe, Egypt, Kuwait, Iraq, Argentina, Brazil, Malaysia, (he's massive there), Mexico and to a lesser extent Australia. Trust me, he's VERY well known in those countries. It's strange you lumped Africa in there, in many countries of Africa he's just as well known, if not better known, than Pepsi and McDonalds. Especially those African countries that are relatviely untouched by globalisation, but still fanatical about football. Not really the US or Canada (they are fairly untouched by "soccer") and it is there that Posh will be better known. If this article is to be believed then yes, it may be possible to delete it. Of course, 50 years down the line when he's dead the legacy of IBM will be greater than Beckham, but we are taling about the here and now. Anyway, that article. http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,,1811728,00.html?gusrc=rss hedpeguyuk 8 July 2006 16:14 (UTC)

Also, let me make it clear. This is not about influence or achievement. I'm sure McDonalds and Microsoft have had a greater influence on Western cuclutre than Beckham. It's about how recognisable the brands are. I'm sure that you'll find, in most countries, Beckham is as recognisable as a Pepsi logo. He's already more recognisable than the British Prime Minister and quite possibly the US president. You try showing a street kid in the favelas of Brazil pictures of Bush and Beckham and name them. hedpeguyuk 8 July 2006 16:14 (UTC)

Yes, well said Jooler. Have a look at this it is taken from a website. "David Beckham" is a more popular Internet search term this year in Indonesian, Norwegian, Hungarian, Turkish, Danish, Swedish and Spanish than it is in English." http://www.oxfordpress.com/sports/content/shared/sports/stories/SOC_BECKHAM_0630_COX.html Google is the be all and end all, but is still a sure sign of his popularity abroad (and possible falling popularity in English speaking countries). hedpeguyuk 17:00 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As I mentioned on your talk page, Google stats are no really relevant. As for street kids in Brazil would recognise a bottle of coca cola better than a picture of Beckham, that's for sure. They would recognise their own players more than a foreigner. As for Australia, more Australians know who Shane Warne is than Beckham. But football is not really followed there any more than in Canada. Wallie 17:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, cricket is a major sport in Australia, association football is not (that's why I said to a lesser extent. But I still hear enough comments and mentions of him made in the Australian media (news and television programmes). Brazil probably was a bad example I'll admit but my point stil stands with African nations where he is looked up to for his wealth, questionable football ability and celebrity status just as much, but probably more so, than other footballers for some reason. I wish I could find that survey that I saw a few years ago that showed he was as recognisable as major world leaders. hedpeguyuk 8 July 2006 17:40 (UTC)


 * Big in Iran too Jooler 17:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Also take a look at this Indian site: - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030614/sports.htm#4 and under "If Beckham shifts, fans may follow" It contradicts you comment that he's hardly known in China. Also see "his looks sell motor oil in Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam, and his ever-changing hair helps market beauty products in Japan." Also, as for people supporting Machester United for the club, not jsut fot the player, see the final paragraph, "Manchester United have an estimated 16 million supporters. Of those, a third support the player rather than the club, according to branding agency FutureBrand. “Many fans in Asia watch a team because of the individual star players". There's a fair bit of truth in that. So we have established his fame in many parts of Africa (esp. West and North), the Middle East, China, Japan and SE Asia as well as the whole of Europe (even if he isn't considered to be the most talented footballer). Is this not famous enough? hedpeguyuk 18:22 8 July 2006, (UTC)


 * India too. There may be a slight interest at this time, being the world cup is on. But normally India is not the slightest bit interested in footrball. And I think you know it too. As far as sportsmen and celebs are concerned, India has plenty of their own like Aishwarya Rai and Tendulkar. Beckham just doesn't rate there. Wallie 18:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, this wasn't even written during the time of the world cup (it's from June 2003, the month that David Beckham moved to Real Madrid). Its main use in this instance is to show his popularity in China and SE Asia. I chose an India site just so that it wouldn't have an "axe to grind". If it was British it may be attacked for trying to depict Beckham as being more popular than he is. Indian sources should therefore be neutral. Also, although India do have their own sports stars who they (quite rightly) rate higher, he is still obviously well-known. hedpeguyuk 8 July 2006 19:25 (UTC)
 * This is not about whether Beckham is popular or not. It is about whether Beckham is as recognisable as Coca Cola throughout the world. I contend that based on these discussions, that Beckham is more recognised than Coca Cola in Japan and England only. However in the rest of the world, incl Brazil, Germany, Scotland, China, India, Australia, Russia, Pakistan, United States, Uganda, Argentina, Turkey etc etc, Coca Cola is more recognisable than David Beckham, and has always been. Beckham has limited appeal compared with Coca Cola, confined to Japan and England. He cannot compete with bigger brands still like Tiger Woods, Toyota or Nokia. Wallie 09:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Tiger Woods? Are you having a laugh? Jooler 10:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

You are the one who started talking about his popularity and the popularity of football. The very fact that he's recognised in countries that aren't even major footballing nations (South Africa, Iran) shows just how famous he is. Also please stop using "England", it's the United Kingdom, he is just as recognisable in Northern Ireland as he is in England. The same goes for the WHOLE of Europe, even if he isn't rated as a footballer he's still one of the most recognisable faces in the world. I've already put forward my views based on my own PERSONAL experiences living in West and North Africa as well as the Middle East. For citizens of some of the countries in these regions IBM doesn't really mean a great deal. David Beckham, however, does. In other more developed regions, such as the USA (which has always been insular anyway), Canada, Australia this isn't the case. Perhaps the section should be re-worked to include Europe, Africa and Asia, but not North America and Oceania. Either way, I'm tired of arguing this. hedpeguyuk 9 July 2006, 10:35 (UTC)
 * Not true. You introduced this aspect. Have a look at this thread and it proves my point. As for being insular, this applies more to the likes of the UK rather than the USA. People in the USA certainly know more about international sports than the UK people generally do. UK people are only interested in football. Americans follow Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Football, Motor Racing, Horse Racing, Rugby, Swimming, Athletics and off course Soccer. People from America are just too big minded to respond to this type of comment. They have a world-wide, not a little-England perspective on things. This article on David Beckham tends to a little-England perspective. Anyway. I will come back and clean up this article in a year or so when Mr B. is well and truly forgotten. Wallie 10:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I find the term "little England" insulting, I'm not English. I like Americans, I have friends there, I'm immensly influenced by their music. However, you have to admit that Americans are insular and have little knowledge of the outside world. I've only been to Boston and San Francisco, but my experience there shows that they have little knowlege of world geography and history. 13% of Americans can't locate Canada on a world map, let alone Australia, Ukraine or Malawi. The writer Bill Bryson, when in Iowa, todl a waitress that he was English. The rewply, "You speak good English for a foreigner"!! Two things that were said to me in the US were, "do you have computers in the UK" and "what language do you speak in England?". The number of Americans who believe Queen Elizabeth to be the "Queen of England", or that England is an island, is extra-ordinary. Wathcing American quiz shows, although not an idea representation of a country's intelligence, doesn't fill me with hope. Secondly, cricket and rugby, although not as popular as football still has a great following amongst fans in the country and is quite avidly followed. So too motor racing and horse racing. You are having a laugh if you truly believe that Hockey, baseball and American football are world sports. When was there an international baseball or A. football tournament on the same scale as the football world cup? Also, I was the one that brought up popularity on this talk page, but I'm sure you mentioed in first on mine. Besides, popularity and "recognisability" go hand in hand. If he is popular in one coutry, then he is surely recognisable. hedpeguyuk 11:00 8 July 2006, (UTC)

Look, in part I do agree, it is UK-centric. I don't believe that world-wide he is as recognisable as many MNCs. However, in some areas of the world, often those that are only starting to welcome capitalism and globalisation, he is still more famous that all but a few MNCs (one ofthose few probably being Coca-Cola). This should be made clear in the article, with a specific mention of those areas. I've listed media sources from around the world, including from the US and India. Jooler has shown that, according the the article he gave, he is one of the first Western figures to be welcomed since the Iranian revolution. I can see that there is no way of persuading you. Given that the quote is cited I believe it should stay. I would advise that you don't "clean up the article". Your views obviously don't have any support, given that nobody on this site as jumped to your defence. Also, given that you admit Ronaldo is more respected that Beckham is (in terms of footballing ability) you still haven't explained why Real Madrid paid 20 million for a player who is an average footballer. The answer is marketing. Given the large sums of money involved, it is obvious he appeals to more than just the "little-Englanders" and a few Japanese people who are following a fad. hedpeguyuk 9 July 2006 11:20 (UTC)
 * Hockey certainly is a World Sport. It is a if not the main sport in Russia, Canada, United States, Sweden, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Austria, Germany and many other countries. In many countries, it is certainly bigger than football. Wallie 12:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I know hockey is a major sport in all of those countries. However, last time I checked, those were all European and North American. Hardly "world". I'll admit that since England won the Rugby World Cup, and the Ashes in cricket, there have been some people jumping on the bandwagon. However, they were still major sports in the country before then and will remain to be so now. Tennis barely gets mentioned except when it gets to Wimbledon (or when people are hyping Andy Murray). I did not mean to be so insluting towards Americans by the way. Very rarely have I met an American that I did not like (unlike my fellow countrymen). However, one has to admit that by and large, they aren't the most knowlegeable people around (at least for anything outside of their country). However, that's to be expected, they are the only world's superpower. I despair at the increasing ignorance of the British people. Anyway, back to David Beckham. Wouldn't it be give a list of those countries in which David Beckham is recognisable rather than leaving it as "much of the world", giving references wherever possible such as the exact details of his non-football activity in those countries. However difficult that may be. This section is getting rather large. Mainly thanks to me. hedpeguyuk 9 July 2006, 13:18 (UTC)

"UK people are only interested in football. Americans follow Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Football, Motor Racing, Horse Racing, Rugby, Swimming, Athletics and off course Soccer." - Good grief. You do realise that The UK is the home of Formula One don't you, with most of the teams based here? That Horseracing in the United Kingdom is enormous, much bigger than in the US because off-track betting is legal everywhere and every town in the UK has dozens of betting shops? That the England national rugby union team won the 2003 Rugby World Cup. You might not be aware, but there are two codes of Rugby and that the other code is enormously popular. That only full-time professional rugby league competition in the northern hemisphere is the Super League based in Britain. Perhaps you have heard of a little game called cricket and the Cricket World Cup. You really illustrate hedpeguyuk's point with that ignorant comment. Take a look at National sport and look at the world-wide popularity of football, and compare it to the popularity of your your silly versions of rounders and netball. Jooler 14:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I meant to say, well put. Then again, I don't think Wallie is American. I may be wrong. Are you originally Australian Wille? Either way, he doesn't really seem to much much about sport in the UK. hedpeguyuk 14:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You get confused with what people are interested in and what is played. If I discuss sport with an Englishman, it is ALWAYS about football. I asked if they knew who Gavin Hastings was, or Garfield Sobers, or Alan Wells. They don't. They can however tell you the names of every Premier League player in England, club by club.
 * I do know a lot about UK horseracing and have written many articles on that topic. However most Englishmen would think Dancing Brave was an Indian Chief and think Desert Orchid was a flower. Most Amercians would know who Secretariat, Cigar, Ruffian and Sea Biscuit are. Americans also follow many sports, and not just one. You only have to look at the leaders. Blair is only interested in football. Bush is interested in Olympic Sports, Hockey, Baseball, Football (American), Golf and Basketball. Wallie 16:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This has decended into a stupid argument now, who gives a toss what sports Bush follows, he should be running the country not watching baseball on TV, I understand that he needs stabilisers on his bicycle otherwise he falls off repeatedly, and again anyway what the hell has all this got to do with the popularity of Beckham, who plays the most popular sport in the World. You're getting close to trolling and so am I. So I'll just say Bye Bye Jooler 21:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Have a good look at this, Jooler
 * Beckham's fame extends beyond the pitch; in much of the world his name is "as instantly recognisable as that of multinational companies like Coca-Cola and IBM."[2]
 * Is this not trolling too? Wallie 22:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

David Beckham isn't Jewish but his grandad is.David Beckham is Christian I think.I'm not sure.

OCD
So Becks suffers from OCD wow that's bad, but he seems to keep it under control.--NeilEvans 16:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If there are any interviews that can be drawn from to add from this article, maybe it would be quite interesting if there is any comment from him about it, whether and how it has affected his development as a player. I cannot help but consider the possibility that it helped him develop his dead ball skills. (so much training, from childhood) Peoplesunionpro 17:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Black icon?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1112920,00.html

Something should be mentioned about the fact that he's considered an icon for Britain's ethnic communities.

The documentary "Black Like Beckham" needs to be referenced also. just because he has ocd that doesnt mean anything is wrong with him!!! He's my Idol

SProtect
I'm thinking about asking for an SProtect on this psge. Anyone object? If not, I'll nominate it; the vandalism is getting bad. -Patstuart 17:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Removal of fansites as spam citing WP:EL
I would like to ask for a discussion on this. I appreciate the need to control an excessive number of external links but WP:EL does have a section called "what should be linked to" and it is possible for "well put together" fansites to qualify. For example some fansites have biographies that are more extensive than those cited in the article. Some have extensive article archives, public domain fair-use photos and or detailed statistics a case can be made in some instances that they do provide useful info that is not suitable for inclusion directly in the article. What is the objective of removing all carte blanche and can some compromise be reached if sites ask whether they have sufficient content to constitute a site that should be linked to? Is to dismiss all of these sites, some of which have involved literally years of work, as having nothing to add, in the best interests of wikipedia's users? --Jackfan222 18:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you have one or more specific examples, please include them here. Normally I (among others) are in the habit of removing fansites because they are usually spam. I don't think I've removed any from this article, but I can understand why others did. Nevertheless, do you have some good examples? Fansites can be relevant, but, if you ask me, the onus is more on them to prove their relevancy than for the remover to prove the non-relevancy. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 21:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

So this is a "GA"-rated (ie approved by the Wiki thought Police) article that is "subject to vandalism" (ie hated by those who detest the mindless hero-worshipping of Beckham). It deserves no place in any archive or library. Wikipedia should concentrate on factual content and ignore the icons of popular culture, regardless of how pert and muscular their fit soccer-honed bodies are, and their gorgeous tanned godlike adoinis facial attributes may be

(Above unsigned comment not mine) Have you considered that rabid fandom is in fact one of the few things which make Beckham notable? Nothing hilights his disproportionate fame or substantiates his (pop) iconic status better than the legions of gibbering fans. Therefore the fansites are useful secondary sources however, only as far as their capacity to display fandom is concerned. --JamesTheNumberless 15:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Religion
Sure, he didn't publicly say to the press that he was a Christian, but I remember watching a show a while back about celebrities and religion. It turns out (according to the show, which I cannot remember the name of) that Beckham and his wife, Victoria, built a chapel in their backyard. If that's not convincing enough (which it probably isn't, due to my not being able to back it up), David Beckham has a clearly visible tattoo of a Christian cross on his neck (?). It's fair to say that that is a large, publicly visible statement of Christianity. Your thoughts? Anton1234 18:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you know what tv station this show is on? You might want to see if this show has a website and see if there is something about this so it can be referenced. Kingjeff 23:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that'd help out a lot, but I remember very little. I think it was on Star TV, or E! Weekly, two Canadian celebrity broadcasts. I'll check their website, but I don't expect to find much. Anton1234 01:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I've found something,, that confirms the chapel being built. But it says it was "improper", because it was not consecrated by a bishop. Anyway, on the same link, it says that a licensed Christian minister married the couple. A chapel built for the christening (a Christian tradition) of his son, a Christian symbol tattooed on his neck, and a marriage by a Christian minister are all strong signs that David exhibits Christianity. Is the evidence conclusive enough to add in the article? Anton1234 01:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the thing about the chapel can be put in since this shows his faith. Kingjeff 02:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So, put it in? Anton1234 03:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)