Talk:David Berkowitz/Archive 1

Question...
Should Berkowitz be removed from the "Jewish Americans" category because of his rejection of Judaism and his claim to be a born-again Christian?


 * No, he doesn't practice Judaism, but one doesn't lose their Jewishness. It's more than religion. 66.75.8.138 09:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But if you are argueing he was Jewish by birth, that's wrong too. He was adopted.  And he never strongly accepted Judaism.  Before and after his killings, he toyed with christianity.  And he was never strongly "Jewish" in a religious sense. HomsarII 00:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ignore above. It turns out his birth mother was Jewish too, and the mother's religion is controlling. HomsarII 00:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * How do we know his birth mother was Jewish? Any sources other than his own?Endabusenow (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The first external link says he killed Donna Lauria on July 29, 1976, not Jody Valentini. Can anybody shed any light on this? Betelgeuse 18:59, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Where did the DeMasi-Lomino shooting take place? Citation is self-referential. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.60.99 (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Radio Interview Information
In a radio interview David claims that pornography addiction was a contributing factor to his actions. It's probably not a popular fact, but I think it would be an insightful addition to the article if someone can find some written information about it. &mdash; SimonEast 05:40, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In a radio interview Berkowitz said that his real parents were of Jewish heritage. Where does this Falco name fit in? FrancisDrake 16:10, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

His birth father Tony falco was an Italian American Catholic. Ony his mother was Jewish and her parents strongly objected to the marriage. Berkowitz was a paranoid shizophrenic which may have compounded his resentment at being adopted. Medication for this disorder was inadequate in the 1970's and his adoptive parents may not have aware of his problem or have sought help for him.Dakota 22:17, September 2, 2005 (UTC)


 * Are these radio interviews linked in the "External links" sections? They'd be valuable resources. Thanks, -Willmcw 18:13, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Inconsistancy
The text says both that he claimed that Carr was a demon, and that his lab was a demon. 198.82.59.174 20:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Confusing
I am not familiar with details of Berkowitz' crimes, nor his arrest, nor trial. This article sheds almost no light on the subjects. No detailed account of his crimes is given at all, it is unclear how he was arrested. Look at articles about other famous serial killers for good examples. This one clearly needs to be expanded. - idiotoff 06:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Letter information missing
The first letter is suddenly quoted without any introduction. When was it sent? To whom? etc 163.192.21.44 22:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Seinfeld
There is no episode of Seinfeld called "the Van." This is either a bad reference or bad information. Does the poster know where it is from?


 * It was the episode called "The Junk Mail" when at the end the gang came upon a van where Costanza's parents were going at it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.109 (talk) 10:18, 11 January 2011 (UTC)


 * However there is an episode called "The Van Buren Boys". Perhaps the poster was referring to that.

--The Most Angry Pissed off Gaming Nerd 20:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Get rid of trivial links
Somebody get rid of all the useless links. I got rid of some of them, but I'm too lazy to get rid of the rest

Accuracy Disputed
David Berkowitz was tried and convicted of multiple murders. Full stop. Lopping the "MSNC" report in the beginning of this article suggests that the man was wrongly convicted. This is flat out wrong. Unless New York State officially reopens this case (which I have never ever heard of them even considering) then the facts stand. Conspiracy theories abound everywhere and I do not think they should be given equal time merely because they present an "entertaining" sidebar. Unless someone can produce hard evidence that Berkowitz was wrongly accused or convicted then the MSNC part should be removed from the begnning and placed somewhere else in the article. Remember, Berkowitz was tried and convicted. End of story.


 * I don't think that section implies that he was wrongly convicted at all. It doesn't read that way to me.  Instead, I read it as saying that some law enforcement people feel that Berkowitz may not have been the sole person responsible for the murders.  Basically, they don't question whether he was a mass murderer, they have questions about whether another murderer may still be out there. - Flooey 21:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This case has not been re-opened.  What these detectives are saying now is pure speculation, not fact.  How can it belong in a Wikipedia article?

The article says: "according to John Hockenberry of MSNBC the "Son of Sam" case was reopened in 1976." That "1976" is obvioulsy a mistake or typo, but what year does Hockenberry really claim the case was "reopened"? PatrickWB 22:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

References in popular culture

 * I'm going to attempt to sort these chronologicaly. Only some don't have any date attatched to them, and still others have very few details at all. I am also trying to trim some of the superfluous information about each entry (I.E. things that would fit better in an arcticle about the item in question). Any help would be appreciated.Lewiscode 20:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've cleaned it up and will now try to clean up the rest of the article (A weird way of going about things I know, but I wanted to add a reference and found it in need of cleaning up). Lewiscode 23:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Misinformation About The Letter?
According to Crime Library, the Son of Sam letter was addressed to Captain Joseph Borrelli, not to Chief of Detectives John Keenan. There are also discrepancies in the way some of the words are spelled, etc. I am changing this until the information concerning the previous version can be verified. --MosheA 20:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Article is starting too get too many cultural references
Do we really want to list every song that ever mentioned Son of Sam or David Berkowitz? If yes, should we consider breaking the cultural reference section out into it's own article and then just list the most important ones in the Berkowitz article with a see also link to Cultural references to Son of Sam and/or David Berkowitz?? just askin' LiPollis 12:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent point you are making here. I agree that the section is a bit too bloated with entries at present.  I would vote for choosing a selection of the most notable ones.  Thanks for starting this discussion.  Labyrinth13 14:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have split the cultural section off, leaving a brief statement and an advisement to go to the main articvle which is now called Cultural references to Son of Sam and/or David Berkowitz. Please feel free to add to the new article since size is no longer an issue.LiPollis 18:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Killed 15 or 16?? The NY times says he killed 6!
The first paragraph says that Berkowitz confessed to killing "15 or 16 people." But the press reports say that he killed six and wounded seven. The entry even says that he was convicted of six murders. Unless there's a source for the figure of 15 or 16, it should change. For one recent citation with the figured of six killed, seven wounded, see http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/nyregion/07sam.html

Outdated
'as of 2004'?

How about something more recent? 02:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)24.188.131.228 (talk)

Please refer to a multi-part article "Son OF Sam" Why Was The Case Classified & Never Closed? by Dr. Syberlux Sunday August 4th. 2004, archived at "Rumor Mill News Agency" http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=53390 Aedwardmoch (talk) 08:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 08:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
 * "crimelibrary" :
 * {{cite web |title=Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, famous serial killer - The Crime library|work=Marilyn Bardsley |url=http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/berkowitz/letter_17.html

After leaving the Army, Berkowitz held several blue collar jobs. At the time of his arrest, he was employed by the U.S. Postal Service.

Joining of Cult
Berkowitz claims that he joined a cult in the spring of 1975. Initially, he said, the group was involved in harmless activities, such as séances and fortune telling. Gradually, however, Berkowitz claimed that the group introduced him to drug use, sadistic pornography and violent crime. They began, he claims, by killing dogs, mostly German Shepherds &mdash; over a dozen mutilated dog corpses were discovered in Yonkers, especially near Yonkers' Untermeyer Park, which Berkowitz claimed was a frequent meeting place for the cult.

First attacks
Berkowitz claimed that his first attacks on women occurred in late 1975, when he attacked two women with a knife on Christmas Eve. One alleged victim was never identified, but Charles Montaldo writes that Berkowitz wounded the other victim, Michelle Forman, seriously enough to put her in hospital. DumZiBoT (talk) 22:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The names James Morrison and Eric Frey were never associated with David Berkowitz or any person connected to the case.

The name "Sam" was not only from Sam Carr. It was a shortening of "Samhain", the Halloween demonic deity that the cult worshipped. This is a statement made by Berkowitz himself on one of his video testimonies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.209.198.207 (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

This page is practically useless - don't bother with it.
The entire thing is referenced to a book that theorizes that the Son of Sam killings were perpetrated by a large Satanic cult, including a Yonkers policeman, as claimed by Sam Berkowitz long after the shootings. I don't know how you'd even go about fixing it. Universaladdress (talk) 04:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Special Psychical and Scientific Teams Used in the Case
Though it has been mentioned in both books written by both news reporters, Jimmy Breslin and Mauy Terry that "Specialized Psychic teams were being activly utilized in The Son Of Sam Case. In Breslin's semi-fictious telling .44, he described a psychic group named "The Moment of Truth". In Terry's telling The Ultimate Evil, He confirms that there actually were a special psychical team or teams called into the case, but law enforement would not in detail, elaborate to him, and were throwing smokescreens in his getting clear answers? Years later, Terry did recieve a telephone call from an individual claiming to have been one of the psychical consultants involved in the Son of Sam case. In Breslin's semi-fictious telling, this person in fiction is verified. Breslin also mentions in his book, that the CIA also wanted to talk to him. If what he basically wrote was true, then the use or form of a use of what we call today "Remote Viewing", was being utilized in the case (see: Project Stargate )

Aedwardmoch (talk) 20:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)aedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 20:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What? Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

what ever happened to the dog ?
my oldest son was born in 1985

when he was about 10 we were at a neighbors house and someone made a joke about "son of sam"

Zach asked "who ?"

I gave him the edited version of the 1977 summer saga (arrested the same week saint Elvis "died")

he listened intently, then offered this incisive question:

"So did they let the dog just get away with ordering all the murders once they caught this guy ?"

204.188.108.130 (talk) 03:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Weasels
"Whose crimes terrorized..." That's definitely putting words into my mouth. This sounds a little like weasel words, and definitely sounds more like the Times than an encyclopedia. I have no idea how to tag properly, but could someone change that?98.163.0.235 (talk) 06:14, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Suspicion and capture section has wrong map
The map in the Suspicion and capture section is supposed to show Berkowitz's address in Yonkers. Instead, the map shows New York City, and the dot on the map locates a part of the Bronx that is east of Yankee Stadium. This is NOT where Berkowitz lived. The map of New York City should be replaced with a map of Westchester County with a dot highlighted in northwest Yonkers.

Anthony22 (talk) 01:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Son of sam law unconstitutional???
This is clearly misleading. The "Son of Sam" laws are still in effect in New York though probably not in the form alluded to. Further, a number of states have their own versions. Really, what needs to be done is to explain is what the Son of Sam laws do and what was struck down.

The statement is extremely funny as I am in the process of writing a convict a letter from the office of my firm explaining how this law works. Hence, if I am writing the letter, and the statute is popularly entitled "Son of Sam," and I'm discussing the operation of the valid law, the son of sam statute cannot be unconstitutional.

Falacious reasoning? Everything's metaphysical I suppose. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.179.107.240 (talk • contribs).

I guess the liberties need to be taken to clarify and the Son of Sam laws should have their own article, no? 69.17.59.230 23:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. In any case, I would assume that anon, who sounds like a lawyer can explain the history and background behind these laws well and what did happen in 1991 so hopefuly he or she could help write the article. Nil Einne 18:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Son of Sam law is absolutely unconstitutional. 502 U.S. 105; 112 S. Ct. 501; 116 L. Ed. 2d 476; 1991 U.S. LEXIS 7172; 60 U.S.L.W. 4029; 19 Media L. Rep. 1609. Those are the parallel citations.

Blame / More Detail
"Berkowitz also claims to not be the Son Of Sam shooter, but merely one of the many look out men. In his claims he puts the blame on John "Wheaties" Carr as one of the shooters, as well as Carr's brother, Micheal Carr, whom he claimed to be the shooter in the Queens disco shooting."

I do not believe he is attempting to put the blame elsewhere when he makes these claims. He also never said he was just a look out men, that he never shot anyone, which is what this article is saying. Berkowitz has said that he was the gunmen on several of the murders, he has said specifically which ones, but that for some he was only a look out man. There are many who believe Berkowitz did not act alone, you can give more credit to this theory. I think this section of the article should be cleaned up and more details of Berkowitz's crimes can be given.

I agree. According to Berkowitz's own website, he DOES NOT DENY that he committed the murders. Over and over again, in multiple places, he takes full blame for the lives lost. In fact, on the front page, he even calls himself a serial killer. These portions of the article need to be cleaned up, as Berkowitz currently does NOT put the blame on anyone else for his crimes. --70.125.41.24 22:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

In the crimelibrary.com article about Berkowitz it says that he later admitted the murders were basically for his own amusement, he wasn't insane at the time of the murders and there was no Satanic cult involved. [] Ressler made it clear that he didn't buy the demon dog theory one bit and eventually he was able to get the truth out of Berkowitz. The demon story was to protect him when and if he was caught so that he could try to convince the authorities he was insane. He admitted to Ressler "that his real reason for shooting women was out of resentment toward his own mother, and because of his inability to establish good relationships with women." He would become sexually aroused in the stalking and shooting of women and would masturbate after it was over. --Auspx 03:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Possibly not apropos...
I'm reading the Shanameh, which is the book of Persian kings. There was a hero named Sam, and his son, Zal, is referred to quite often as the "son of Sam." I'm not suggesting an Iranian connection, the Shanameh is quite accessible to the Westerner. For instance, in Roger Zelazny's "Lord of Light," the main character is named Sam and also called "Binder of Demons." The Shanameh refers to a "Binder of Demons" although it wasn't Sam that had that distinction.

Could be just a coincidence, but perhaps it is an avenue worth exploring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.121.166.99 (talk) 17:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I first heard about Berkowitz after reading a passage from the Shanameh, and heard the claim that son of "Sam" refers to the Sam in the story. Any credible evidence of this? 66.41.62.136 22:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Family Religious Background
According to Crime Library both his adoptive and birth parents are of the Jewish faith. Graham Wellington 19:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Please discuss before deleting that his adoptive parents are of the Jewish faith. Graham Wellington (talk) 18:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Berkowitz's birth and adoptive parents are Jewish. These are facts with a reliable source and will remain in the article.

Quotes from the Crime Library article on Berkowitz:

His real mother, Betty Broder, grew up in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn. Her family was poor and she had to struggle to survive during the Depression. Her Jewish family opposed her marriage to Tony Falco, who was Italian and a gentile.

Her sadness at giving up her child was mitigated somewhat by the knowledge that a good Jewish couple was ready to adopt her son. With her newborn gone, Betty resumed her affair with Kleinman until he died of cancer in 1965.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/berkowitz/17.html

More solid facts, backed up by reliable sources, that Berkowitz and his family are all Jewish.

Quotes from a 2002 Larry King Live interview:

KING: Why did you leave Judaism?

BERKOWITZ: Well, Larry, I haven't left Judaism at all. I feel that I'm totally Jewish. I was born a Jew, I feel I'm going to leave this world a Jew.

BERKOWITZ: She was also Jewish, just like my natural father.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0210/26/lklw.00.html

The article states he lost interest in Christianity citing the 2002 interview. This is not accurate, I believe. There are journal entries through Oct 2007 that indicate otherwise here: http://www.ariseandshine.org/Journal.html   Pokeyrmb 17:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Graham Wellington (talk) 03:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Graham Wellington (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Life after 10 years in prison
David Berkowitz gave his life to Jesus Christ in prison in 1987 and is now serving God. There are 3 parts to an interview by Focus on the Family and David Berkowitz. Some pretty amazing stories as to how his life changed. http://www.focusonthefamily.com/search.aspx/search?q=david%20berkowitz. Link to David Berkowitz's website - ariseandshine.org. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clegde (talk • contribs) 02:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Chain Gang song
I think we should add "Son of Sam" by the Chain Gang. It was released in 1977 while the killings were still unsolved; lyrically it includes some of the theories going around ("...an off duty cop?") It was a pretty big underground hit at the time and was included on the second volume of the popular punk retrospective Killed By Death (now into dozens of volumes). It was recently covered by The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion.

Another one to include would be "Son of Sam" by the Dead Boys. Again this is a song from the era, about the event, not one using the case as a generic shock. 71.111.27.153 (talk) 18:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Son of Sam Missing Links, "The Carr Brothers"
When the book "The Ultimate Evil" by Investigative Reporter Maury Terry was published, he brought out some additional theories and the possible notion that David Berkowitz was not working alone. After reading his book, I contacted Mr. Terry in regards to my direct and in-direct involvement-research in The Son of Sam Case. Mr. Terry was pleasent and open to what I had to say. I felt from my own investigation, that Mr. Terry and I were correct about Mr. Berkowitz having "possible" associates. In Terry's questions of the involvement of both John Carr and his brother Michael Carr with David Berkowitz was a sensitive issue. In the later mysterious deaths of "The Carr Brothers" after the "SOS" Case, sent a red flag that needed to be explored. Though at first, the involvement of "The Carr Brothers" seemed vague, after a series of interviews with Berkowitz by Terry, a "change of confession" from David Berkowitz occured. In this change of confession, he confirmed to Terry the co-association he had with John and Michael Carr in the "SOS" case. Both Mr. Terry and I continued to research separately. In my own continued personal investigation, I am convinced that "The Carr Brothers" were primary accomplishes in the "SOS" Case, and supports Mr. Terry's findings, and in my opinion this re-writes the true crime motives of The "SOS" Case as a whole. Aedwardmoch (talk) 08:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 08:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The Son Of Sam Case: "The Mystery Woman".
In the post-research on The Son of Sam Case. After the "Change of Confession" from convicted killer, David Berkowitz, Investigative Reporter, Maury Terry had brought up an additional theory about "A Mystery Woman" that may have been involved in The "SOS" Case. According to various witnesses at one or more of the "SOS" attack locations, a number of crime composit drawings were made, one of these offical drawings at first was identified as a male individual, dressed in a navy pea coat and knit hat... but there has been speculation that this individual was in fact a female. In my personal investigation and discussion I had with Maury Terry, prior to "the Berkowitz confession change", we never brought up the subject of a possible female suspect-accomplice involved in the Son of Sam Case. In hindsight at the time, I recalled that there was a female that lived in Rego Park, that took the bus and subway near the attack areas of Forest Hills Queens, that "Dressed down" in a navy peacoat and knit hat, in fear of being a possible target. This "Mystery Woman", would sometimes return home late at night, and claimed that she did miss at times the last bus that took her safely back to her home area. Her direct-indirect involvement in The Son of Sam Case as a possible prime witness and/or suspect becomes now apparent. This "Mystery Woman" may have been working both sides of the case in question. Her where abouts were known not only in Queens, but also in The Bronx. It has been verified that this "Mystery Woman" was in contact with a male go-between involved with the NYPD, who was patrolling the Forest Hills Area for clues and another go-between individual in The Bronx. Be her a valid informant-witness and/or a dis-information double-agent sent by the Son's of Sam to confuse law enforcement contacts that were getting close, the very notion of Maury Terry's "An Un-Indited Female" involved in The Son of Sam Case that may have a two-fold twist. If both our investigative research is correct, again "The Mystery Woman" was a direct conduit in The Son of Sam case that needs to be seriously re-examined. Aedwardmoch (talk) 20:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk)


 * How does any of this pertain in light of Wikipedia policies regarding original research, synthesis and fringe theories? Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not new or original work. The discussion of a possible female accomplice involved in The Son of Sam Case has been in the back burner for years. There has been viable speculation, and Maury Terry has done much research on this. As far as my own, I was aware that there was a possible "Female" directly or in-directly involved in the case... it just didn't occur to me at the time that this person was important in the case till Terry's research about "an unindited female" surfaced. This "Mystery Woman" may have been right under our noses, and she may be a prime suspect and/or witness to additional facts to this case. Both Terry and I need to update our notes, as we did on "The Carr Brothers". I think "Wiki" needs to rename the article heading "The Son Of Sam Case", and make David Berkowitz a secondary article heading.Aedwardmoch (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not based on a book by one author and your personal research. Terry's book is mentioned in the article and also the fact that nothing has ever come from re-opening the investigation based on his assertions. My questions about original research were because you are discussing your own personal investigation and that will not be included in this article. You haven't answered how this doesn't fall under fringe theories or conspiracy theories. It's given the weight it deserves based on the guidelines under WP:FRINGE. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

From the book ".44", AUTHORS NOTE: This is a novel. It is based on historical realities--the Son of Sam Killings in New York City in 1976 and 1977-- but it is not itself historically accurate. It is not suppose to be. Many people were hurt by Son of Sam, directly and indirectly, and to avoid hurting those people further, and to protect those who shared their experiences and their thoughts with us, we have invented people, places, and dates, everything except the terror. The terror was real. This is a novel. It is not factual. We hope that is truthful. --Jimmy Breslin --Dick Schaap. I can assure you, my knowledge of The Son of Sam Case is as clear as etched crystal, bitter and sweet even to this day. Truth can be stranger than fiction. What's in a name? Don't Blurr the larger than life myth of David Berkowitz over the true reality of "The Son of Sam" Case. There were many players on both sides of this case that are being "Dismissed", Unsung civilian and law enforcement heros that went the extra miles to capture David Berkowitz, but due to internal politics, "The Son of Sam Case" remains unfinished to this day.Aedwardmoch (talk) 08:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 08:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

John Douglas
John Douglas, in one of his books, stated that Berkowitz told him that all the "Son of Sam" stuff was something he did just for kicks, and that he didn't actually believe a dog was telling him to kill people. Does anyone else know anything about this? I find it odd that it's not included in the article. Primium mobile (talk) 22:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

365 Years? Really?
365 years?

I believe he got 6 consecutive life sentences or something. 365 years is estimating somebody lives until they are 60 with 6 sentences. He probably should be getting about 480 years.
 * I have no idea how consecutive life sentences are worked out and the article doesn't explain that well although it'll be best to ask there. However your sums seem a bit off. The life expentancy at birth, in the US, for both sexes and all races in 1980 was ~74 years, not 80... Nil Einne

The BBC article says 365 years. Lewiscode 19:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

A life sentence is 100 years so he would be in jail for 600years 365 or 480 years and that is stat from crimnal justice class i took in High School because they can give someone 99 years.74.133.247.221 02:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Savannah


 * The figure is an unnecessary estimation and I've removed it. The number 365 was introduced in June 2006 and the original wording was "making his maximum term some 365 years behind bars." It's an imprecise approximation that was only turned into a definite figure when the qualifier "some" was removed without explanation in January, 2007. SteveStrummer (talk) 08:25, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

needs to be fixed - incomplete
" During his stay at the King's County Hospital, while watching television, Berkowitz started shrieking because of one of the characters on "Days Of Our Lives". "   WHAT did the character do that caused him to become upset? Makes no sense, as is. HammerFilmFan (talk) 20:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This apparently meaningless incident is not found in the given source (the AP report "Eats Like a Horse...") and I've removed it. I've made changes to the summary of his stay at King's County Hospital and moved it to the section concerning his life in custody. SteveStrummer (talk) 18:10, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Why is the article titled after the killer?
Shouldn't this article be "Son of Sam Killings" and have Berkowitz as a redirect? It was the crime that was famous, not the criminal per se, so why is the title about the killer (who for most of the time the killings were famous wasn't known by name)? Tolstoyan at Heart (talk) 22:23, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

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Edit to wording on Satanic cult claims section.
Previously stated "refer to that Wikipedia article for more information." Removed that line, as anyone with the inclination to find more information needs no prompting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.178.12.2 (talk) 16:02, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Re-adding Seinfeld reference
I disagree with the deletion of the Seinfeld material from the "In Popular Culture" section as "trivial/unhelpful". As for "trivial", when that Season 6 episode aired, the series was the top-rated television show in the country. That alone would make it more culturally relevant than the little-known musical references that the editor left in place. As for "unhelpful", the comedy writing illustrates both Berkowitz's contribution to the stereotype of the "homicidal postal employee" and popular disbelief/ridicule of the insanity defense. (Contrast this with the show's other Son of Sam reference in "The Junk Mail" - which is genuinely trivial, since George's line - "I knew it wasn't Berkowitz!" - does not connect to any real-life cultural doubt about Berkowitz's guilt.) For these reasons, I am undoing the deletion. I ask that it not be removed again without a fuller justification here. 216.113.160.68 (talk) 23:48, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The musical references are taken from a book on the sociology of murder. On the other hand, this self-described "personal/fan site" is by its own admission not a reliable secondary source. It provides no commentary, nothing but an unauthenticated transcript of the show, and any claim that it "illustrates" anything is unsupported original research. Moreover, if an IPC entry is not somehow clearly connected to Berkowitz (like the Spike Lee movie or the Green Jelly lawsuit), then Berkowitz should be somehow essential to the cultural work itself (like the two songs' lyrics, or the band name "Son of Sam") – the Berkowitz joke, or jokes, are simply not an essential element of Seinfeld. So I'm sorry, but I'm respectfully deleting it again because this article is already at a considerable length for most readers. SteveStrummer (talk) 22:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the first guy. Taking the Seinfeld part out is arbitrary. If that isn't "In Popular Culture" no article should even have that section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hockey16 (talk • contribs) 18:37, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Not arbitrary at all: there's a full explanation right above your grousing. Since you don't address any of that, you haven't moved this conversation one bit. SteveStrummer (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't change that the argument is lame. I don't think the article being long has anything to do with it either. But that's fine leave out interesting things as people don't want to read a full article. Seriously I don't disagree with the music part but whether these are "essential" to Seinfeld they are in there and I think worth adding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hockey16 (talk • contribs) 13:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Citation for Supreme Court Cases?
The article mentions that several Supreme Court cases found laws similiar to New York's Son of Sam laws were unconstitional. I was hoping there would be a cite in the source section for this statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.240.1.2 (talk) 01:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Maury Terry and "The Ultimate Evil"
I've removed several paragraphs in the Moskowitz/Violante section that cited Terry as their only source. They contain only speculation and alleged details that, for the most part, don't lead anywhere and are uncorroborated in the principal works we have i.e. Abrahamsen and Klausner, and the newspaper records. Terry was a sensationalist and his book should be treated as a lightweight reference. It has some usefulness in describing the Satanic cult claims, but it shouldn't be presented to readers as a serious general reference book. It's been used for certain facts which are indeed verifiable elsewhere and for now I'll let them stand. I will work on replacing them in the future. SteveStrummer (talk) 02:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Why the section heading called "Case Reopened"?
This section lacks any reference to a legal action taken by anyone to "reopen" the case, i.e. review the 1978 conviction. Isn't this more of a "Media Re-examination"? patsw (talk) 17:31, 13 August 2021 (UTC)