Talk:David Cameron/Archive 4

proper titles
Wouldn't it be proper to include David Cameron as not only the Prime Minister at the beginning of the article, but also the First Lord of the Treasury, and Minister for the Civil Service. At the least add First Lord of the Treasury as it is this position that gives him access to Number 10. CrasVox (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Scott K

Neutrality dispute
Is the article disputed anymore? If not perhaps we could have a neutrality check and then have the tag removed? I'd do this myself but seeing as I asked for it I'd like to give someone else a shot first. John Smith&#39;s (talk) 22:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The page is decent and tidy, but also ostensibly positive, it wouldn't surprise me if Cameron himself saw to it that his people kept an eye on this page, being the one which appears pretty much first on Google!--Tomsega (talk) 11:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is basically the impression I got while skimming over this article - it is absurdly biased. - Drthatguy (talk) 08:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is biased. Against Cameron. Far too many criticisms of him - suggestions that there is something wrong about having a prominent family, being wealthly, and going to a good school. Also suggestions that he is "moderate", implying the Conservatives are an extreme party; and the implication that class warfare is a good thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 09:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the polls in the lede
Personally I would take it completely out as polls go up and down and need explainations that dont belong in the lede.. perhaps the ...we are 22 percent ahead claim could be removed and a cite found that simply said that under cameron recently the tories have had a good showing in the polls. To start saying 22 percent means that detail can be added to balance the claim. (Off2riorob (talk) 20:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC))

here it is ..as was....

the Conservatives were consistently ahead throughout 2008. the Conservatives enjoyed a lead of up to 22 points over Labour.

personally I think that this...the Conservatives were consistently ahead throughout 2008. is enough in the lede....adding the claim that on such a day accordind to ...whoever.. the conservatives enjoyed a 22 percent lead....this addition is a bit one sided and if you insist on having it then you allow for the insertion of the other side .. so I think removal is better for the article or add it to the article about polls results... (Off2riorob (talk) 20:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC))


 * Under Cameron's leadership, throughout 2008 and to date, the Conservatives have been consistantly ahead of Labour in the polls. (Off2riorob (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC))

What is "lede"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 09:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Prime Minister
I believe Nick Clegg was only officially made Deputy Prime Minister on 12 May (today). Is that not right? Gavinayling (talk) 10:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, it is now virtually certain that David Cameron will be the next PM. As talks between Lib & Lab have collapsed (as just announced on BBC), while talks with the Tories have been very strong. It is very obvious what will happen next... but I'll wait until something comes through in the press before adding this :) Mathmo Talk 15:16, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest that everyone braces themselves before the storm. -- .: Alex  :.  17:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

actually he isnt prime minister until he goes to see the queen, she asks him to form a goverment and offers her hand, then and only then is he prime minister —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.138.89.106 (talk) 17:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * At the moment we seem to be prime minister less. Kittybrewster   &#9742;  18:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep. We don't have confirmation that he has been appointed by the Queen, despite certain editors' over-enthusiasm. He sn't even at the palace yet, so certainly hasn't been appointed. – Toon 18:59, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

We only know when the Palace or Cameron himself announces so wait. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KnowIG (talk • contribs) 19:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, (horrible thought) we seem to have Harriet Harman as leader of the Labour party. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:07, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Lovely time for British politics, non? – Toon 19:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Could have been worse - Ed Balls as PM, for example.  Lugnuts  (talk) 19:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity.
Why someone removed that his ethnicity is Scottish? It is very well known that Camerons are an ancient Scottish clan!

Anyway, CONGRATULATIONS!!! СЛУЖБА (talk) 20:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's lovely. Provide a reliable source and you can re-add it. – Toon 20:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * His father was born in Scotland and he is known to belong to the Scottish Cameron clan. 95.26.69.77 (talk) 12:48, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I refer you to the Eddie Murphy discussion page. 86.7.211.128 (talk) 22:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Kittybrewster  &#9742;  22:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe the most common Māori surname is "Macdonald". Surnames don't really imply ethnicity. TFOWRThis flag once was red 22:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Very true. And "it is known that Camerons are an ancient Scottish clan" is not a good source. However this man's ancestry is clearly very Scottish. Is that ethnicity? No idea.  Kittybrewster   &#9742;  11:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course. Because if that's not ethnicity, then what is? 95.26.69.77 (talk) 12:48, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cultural identity. For example, I have relatives who were born in Scotland, have apparently Scottish surnames, but consider themselves ethnically English or Pākehā. TFOWRThis flag once was red 13:01, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Brother's name
His brother is Alexander, which we have here as both 'Alec' and 'Alex'. Some reputable references (eg. Daily Telegraph, The Independent) have themselves used both forms, but can we identify which is 'right'? Earthlyreason (talk) 07:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Year out travelling?
It says on the BBC here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/election_2010/8661964.stm he took a year out travelling. I dont immediately see a mention of this in our article. Does anyone have proof of where and when he took this year out? Secondly, he was 22 in 1988, at the height of the rave scene, and he is on the record as favouring drug liberalization. What has he declared about his illegal drug use or abstinence? We need a mention of that as per Barack Obama and Bill Clinton. Interestingly enough, the BBC link says `At the start of his leadership, Mr Cameron was all about sunny optimism and "sharing the proceeds of growth". He told activists in his first party conference speech to "let sunshine win the day" and managed to get a round of applause for a mention of civil partnerships.` -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No idea about the gap year, but there's a mention of his drug use in the "Education" section: apparently he allegedly smoked cannabis while at school, owned up to it, and was reprimanded. No mention as to whether or not he didn't inhale, but I'd assume it he wanted to pull a "Clinton" he'd have done it by now, and he'd prefer us to think that he's intelligent enough to know how to smoke a joint ;-) (Post-Clinton it does seem that politicians recognise that the public won't kill them for youthful indiscretions...) TFOWRThis flag once was red 09:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * There is more information here. Viewfinder (talk) 09:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks to you both. There is massive lobbying right now to free up the medical use of MDMA. It would be good to know if he has declared whether or not he ever took it himself, when many people did in the late 1980s. Also, lets get hold of those gap year details. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:53, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The BBC article (thanks from me, too!) suggests he's never declared that he has taken cannabis, simply that he hasn't refuted allegations that he did. I'd be very surprised if he declared he'd taken ecstasy (but that's my own guess). The article seems to imply that the cannabis incident took place (allegedly) in 1982 when he was 15; that would make his gap year a little before the Second Summer of Love (not that that necessarily proves anything: I believe it's possible to take ecstasy outwith one's gap year ;-)
 * Regarding his gap year, the education section seems to cover this - he stayed on at Eton until late 1984 (to sit the Oxford entrance exam), then worked for 3 months as a researcher in the Commons, then spent 3 months in Hong Kong working for a shipping firm. He returned via the Soviet Union to meet with his KGB handlers (joke! joke!) before returning to the UK to start at Oxford.
 * I'm not convinced this all belongs in the education section - it could perhaps be moved down to the next section ("political career") or a sub-section under education created?
 * Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 10:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Ooh, which shipping firm in Hong Kong? And what did he do for the other 9 months of his gap year? The whole gap year could do with its own section, if only we can get the reliable sources. I see now the gap year must have been pre-university, around 1984. Anyway, I assume that anyone who was 22 in 1988 and still talks about sunshine might have had a couple of meaningful experiences at the time. -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's all there: I'm simply reading from the current article ;-)
 * The firm was Jardine. He spent ~3 months at Eton, 3 months at Westminster, 3 months in HK, then (presumably) the final 3 months travelling back to the UK via the USSR.
 * Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 10:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no purpose in mentioning American presidents here. Cameron is a British PM, not a US president! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 09:44, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I know he's British. I was referring to wikipedia precedents on the BLPs of political leaders. That is the purpose of mentioning US presidents, or presidents from Jamaica, Burkina Faso or Tuvalu for that matter.-Chumchum7 (talk) 09:53, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Chumchum 7: Could you please clarify exactly what relevance fictional presidents have in this? Thank you. 199.172.209.123 (talk) 21:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't recall Chmchum7 mentioning fictional presidents...? Chumchum7's reasoning does seem right - we should aim for consistency between various related articles (and I'd suggest that - even if PM isn't head of state - there's a strong relationship between the post of PM in the UK and the post of President in the US. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 23:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually he did mention fictional presidents: Jamaica and Tuvalu are both democratic monarchies (see: Monarchy of Jamaica; Monarchy of Tuvalu), not republics. As for the British PM - US President relationship, there is quite a strong relationship between these posts indeed, and there are some similarities, at least in terms of political influence/effective political power in some ways, but however it is the British monarch (currently Queen Elizabeth II) who is the head of state of the United Kingdom (as the name of country obviously implies), not the PM, who, constitutionally, is only the Sovereign's chief advisor. --~ Knowzilla  (Talk)  15:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Doh! Two countries that have the same head of state as mine... Apologies, 199..., and thanks, Knowzilla.
 * I take your point regarding head of state; however, I think it's reasonable to compare PM with President for article purposes, even if David Cameron gets less "bangs" than Barack Obama in a gun salute ;-)
 * Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 15:54, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem. I too agree that it is reasonable to compare the two, as they are both political leaders. As for the Queen being shared as head of state amongst several countries, many countries (16 in total; the four oldest being: the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) do. =P --~ Knowzilla  (Talk)  16:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason I'm feeling so daft richt now is: I'm a Kiwi (my head of state is one "Elizabeth II"); I live in the UK (head of state one "Elizabeth II"); NZ has long standing relations with Tuvalu; I've campaigned on Jamaican issues in a past life (based on Jamaica being a Commonwealth country (ignore Mozambique) ). And I've edited Elizabeth II quite a lot in the past ;-) <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>This flag once was red 16:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

"counted ... among its alumni" ?
"Heatherdown Preparatory School ... counted Prince Andrew and Prince Edward among its alumni." What does the past tense imply? Or should this be present tense? Nurg (talk) 10:04, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The school closed in 1982. <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>This flag once was red 10:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Eton College
I kind of see why someone has deleted the adjectives "prestigious and exclusive" (describing Eton College) as peacock terms. On the other hand, I think it is of note that Cameron went to a school where the annual fees are around £26,500. For comparison, the median annual UK pre-tax earnings of a person in full-time work are just under £25,000. So "exclusive" is probably more factual than peacock. The fact that Cameron went to a school perceived as "prestigious and exclusive" is surely the reason why he is satirised as a Lord Snooty character. Are there any better adjectives, that convey the perception of Eton without being peacock terms? Bluewave (talk) 18:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, Eton is by no means the only public school to charge fees at this level: this Times article lists 50 schools (involved in a price-fixing scandal, but that's not relevant) and over half have fees above £20,000 per year (at the time Eton's fees are listed as being £23,688).
 * On the other hand, Eton is regarded as, well, superior to pretty much all other public schools. But I have no idea how to say that without throwing WP:NPOV out of the window and onto a WP:PEACOCK.
 * Cheers, <b style="color:#000">This flag once was red</b>propagandadeeds 18:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * This issue came up before (almost two years ago) - see the talk archives. Cameron's education at Eton has been used to criticise him for being elitist. I don't think we can rely on all readers being aware that Eton is regarded as being exceptionally exclusive even among public schools so some mention should be made of it. Sam Blacketer (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, sorry, I didn't read the archives! Yes, I don't think the current version, describing Eton just as a "private school" quite conveys how the place is perceived. Bluewave (talk) 18:50, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say so, to be honest. A lot of people go to private schools in the UK.  By just describing Eton as a "private school", nothing is being done to differentiate it from the many other private schools. 94.173.12.152 (talk) 19:23, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

David Cameron would have been in trouble in May 1982 not May 1983 regarding the cannabis allegations at Eton. He would have been studying for his A-levels in May 1983, taking them in the summer of 1984. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.243.194 (talk) 17:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I like your reference to satirised as a Lord Snooty character, Bluewave. Too many Labour politicians are socialist dinosaurs who can thing of nothing more sophisticated that resorting to attacking those who are better educated than they are. Eton is prestigious because it maintains such high standards, not because of the fees charged. I envy those able to attend such schools, I don't despise them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 09:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Line of succession to the throne?
If David Cameron is a descendant of William IV, does this not mean that he is somewhere (probably very distant, but still somewhere) in the line of succession to the British throne? If so, how far back? And if not, why not? Either way, it would be appropriate to mention it. Richwales (talk) 21:24, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No. His descent from William IV results from a liaison William had with a woman other than his consort, so that entire line of descendants is excluded from the accession.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It is worth mentioning what position he would be at in case that rule did not exist. 95.26.69.77 (talk) 12:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Prime Minister Sir Anthony Eden was also a descendant of royalty, his ancestress having been Charlotte Lee, an illegitimate daughter of King Charles II of England and Barbara Villiers. Cameron's descent, however, is far more recent. I believe his wife, Samantha is a descendant of Charles II.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Agent 95, it would not be appropriate to mention that. That would be like mentioning who might be President of the USA if they didn't have a law requiring the President to be a natural-born citizen.  But there is such a law, just as there is a British law preventing illegitimate offspring of royalty and their descendants from ever acceding to the throne.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Relatives, relations, family members, ...
These sections all seemed to be "related" (apologies: difficult to avoid, that pun...) I've brought them under one parent section. <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 10:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable relations
include ... "TV chef Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall through his brother's wife, Mayor of London Boris Johnson (8th. cousin), [28] and the footballer Tony Adams (via marriage).[29]". I cannot find verification of the last. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  13:29, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * So the allegation is that Cameron is related to Poppy Teacher (not notable), second wife of Tony Adams. I don't think that should be included. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  20:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it says he is related to Tony Adams who is defintely notable, and the Telegraph article is a reliable citation. The mention of Poppy Teacher is not because she is notable, but to explain how Cameron is related to Adams.  Peteinterpol (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If Cameron is related to Poppy, it does not make him related to her husband. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  22:25, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that is related through marriage/law which is a totally different thing and is not notable. Off2riorob (talk) 23:03, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is related by marriage not a valid relation? Does that mean I'm not related to my sister-in-law? Elvie (talk) 23:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * She is as you say your sister in law, your related only through marriage and not by blood. It is just less notable a fact in camerons life. Actually very unnotable really, trivia. Boris is by blood, as they are cousins. I think we should remove all the not by blood relations, its valueless, camerons sister is married to a tv chef, its not notable trivia. Off2riorob (talk) 23:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No. As I understand it, David's brother, Alexander married a cousin of the chef. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  11:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cameron is not in any way related to Tony Adams. MidnightBlue   (Talk)  23:17, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Its just the in laws. We should keep boris though because he is a cousin.Off2riorob (talk) 23:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That can only be true if you also assert I am not related to my sister-in-law. I have always understood that one can be related to people either by blood or by marriage.  I would consider it correct to say that "Tony Adams is not blood related to David Cameron", but perfectly true and valid to say "Tony Adams is related (by marriage) to David Cameron" (and vice versa with the names).
 * As for the notability of the relationship, is it more or less notable than his relationship to his 8th cousin (which I saw was included in the article)? Elvie (talk) 23:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It is fluff actually imo and not notable in Camerons life story. Whereas the fact that he is related by blood to Boris Johnson is imo a very worthy inclusion. Off2riorob (talk) 23:30, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm beginning to wonder about the value of this section at all. As Cameron is related to the Royal Family, there are many,many other notable relatives not currently included in this list (The Queen, Prince Charles, Prince Edward, many members of European royal families).  Is this section actually adding any value or is it trivia that should be removed? Peteinterpol (talk) 08:20, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Happy to leave well alone as it now is. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  10:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure the 'related by blood' distinction is sustainable. It's certainly not justified by any Wikipedia guidance or policy that I am aware of.  The logical conclusion is that Cameron is more closely related to Boris Johnson than Samantha Cameron!  I think we are in danger of making up non-sustainable rules as we go along just to suit this questionable section.  Any other views from anyone?  Peteinterpol (talk) 10:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Clearly your wife is a very close person to you and becomes your next of kin. I don't know if there is instruction in guidelines but in real life blood relations are considered much more related than the in laws and we are also allowed to use our common sense. Off2riorob (talk) 10:52, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Let's knock this on the head once and for all. Elvie makes a good point above by asking is he related to his sister-in-law; of course he is (forgive me for using the universal 'he' here. The same arguments apply if Elvie is female). However, if his sister-in-law is his wife's sister then is he related to his sister-in-law's husband? Most definitely not - not even by marriage. Alternatively, if his sister-in-law is his brother's wife then is he related to his sister-in-law's brothers, sisters, pareents etc? Again, most definitely not, not even by marriage. To claim that Cameron is related to Harriet Harman or Tony Adams is just plain incorrect. They are not blood relatives and they are not even related by marriage. All that has happened is that a relative of Cameron has married a relative of Harman or Adams. I say again, that does not mean they are related, even if The Sun and The Telegraph claim otherwise. MidnightBlue  (Talk)  11:08, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Quite right. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  11:41, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Harman
Labour politician Harriet Harman is related to David Cameron through her aunt's marriage to his great uncle.http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2445120/David-Cameron-and-Harriet-Harman-are-related.html

This has been removed with the edit summary of "The Sun and Mr Andrews might think Cameron is related to Harriet Harman, but actually he isn't". I remember wanting to remove this from the Harman article and the consensus there was to keep the detail. I don't see a good reason to remove it. Perhaps User::MidnightBlueMan has a citation that says they are not so related, it is still on the Harman article. At least it was, the user has also just removed the content from there with the edit summary " Remove falsehood - she is not related to Cameron", perhaps he has some additional details to support his claims. comments?. Off2riorob (talk) 22:49, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've taken it out of the Harman article as well. I don't doubt that his great uncle married her aunt - well at least the Sun says so, but that does not make them relatives. If Harman's aunt did indeed marry Cameron's great uncle, then Cameron's great uncle is Harman's great uncle by marriage, but none of the great uncle's relatives, including Cameron, are related to Harman. This is just basic genealogy. Also, I believe the proper term is relative and not relation. I made this change but someone's put it back. MidnightBlue   (Talk)  23:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * But it actually says the they are related through marriage in the cited text that you removed? Off2riorob (talk) 23:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but not to put too finer a point on it, The Sun and the guy who came up with this don't know what they are talking about. Consider a blood aunt (or uncle) of yours. Are you related to their spouse - yes you are, by marriage. Now consider the brother or sister of that uncle/aunt by marriage. Are you related to that person - no you are not. Family links end at the by marriage relationship. We shouldn't have daftness from The Sun in any articles. MidnightBlue   (Talk)  23:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I originally wanted to remove it but was in a minority, at the time it was breaking it hasn't a value I agree with you. Off2riorob (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * On the strength of which I am removing from this article Harman's (not Cameron's) relations Thomas Pakenham, Rachel Billington and Antonia Fraser. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  09:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

How Tony Adams is related to David Cameron
According to the Daily Telegraph of 13 May 2010 (page 11):

"Tony Adams, Former Arsenal and England captain, is related by marriage to David Cameron. His wife Poppy Teacher, from the Teacher's whisky family, is a cousin of Julia Mount, the wife of Ferdinand Mount, Cameron's first cousin once removed."
 * I think that is a connection rather than a blood relationship between two notable people. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  10:02, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Where is the Wikipedia guidance that assigns greater notability to blood relationships over those by marriage? Peteinterpol (talk) 10:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * How is this important enough for inclusion either way? It seems to be just trivia to me. – Toon 10:36, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I would suggest deleting the section altogether, and integrating any material that is notable in its own right into the other sections. Peteinterpol (talk) 11:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The section is now defined and correct. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  11:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I also support keeping the section/s as they are now, although it would not be something I would be wanting to know, as a historic interest it is well cited and notable. Off2riorob (talk) 13:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable relatives/relations
It seems to me that it's notable that Cameron is related to the Royal family, and that a (possibly limited) number of royal relations is useful to demonstrate Cameron's notable links to royalty. Likewise, it seems to me that it's notable that Cameron has so many relatives/relations from Big Finance, and that a (possibly limited) number of financial relatives is useful to demonstrate Cameron's notable links to Big Finance.

I'm much less convinced that all the celebrity relatives are necessarily notable in the context of a senior politician. However, I would certainly prefer a short list of celebrity relations to a long, albeit cited, list.

Thoughts?

Cheers, <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 11:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC) Who still can't tell the difference between "relative" and "relation"...


 * David Cameron is of course a cousin of Barack Obama Family_of_Barack_Obama. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm assuming a very, very distant cousin? ;-) Presumably though their respective relations with the Queen? I'm pretty naive when it comes to this stuff - I assume there's no real justification for adding the Obama/Cameron relationship? Pity - it would be an interesting fact to add... <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 14:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 19th cousin - twice. I regard it as interesting trivia. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly regard it as interesting trivia, too! Even if the link is only distant, I'd consider this notable enough to be mentioned. Is there a compelling reason not to include it? <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 14:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me find a source for it. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  15:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * and Kittybrewster   &#9742;  08:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

These sections have way too much detail. In the political section, everything after his not being in the line of succession could go. His links to people most people have never heard of are simply not important enough to go into here. As regards the financiers, it would be sufficient to say that his father and three preceding generations were all in banking. The detail about who was in business with whom and who helped the Rothschilds fund the Japanese in the Russo–Japanese War more than 100 years ago is absurdly detailed for an ancillary issue in an article about current Prime Minister. After paring those down, we can scoop out some celebrities (who doesn't want to scoop out celebrities?) and make it all one paragraph. -Rrius (talk) 14:09, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with this suggestion. Peteinterpol (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I also agree, its excessive, it has all been expanded recently, looking back a little it was just as informative and much less bloated. Off2riorob (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

'He gained a first class honours degree'
The first sentence in the second paragraph reads: '' 'Cameron studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Oxford, gaining a first class honours degree. ' '' Don't get me wrong, but whoever wrote that really needs a reality check and placed it in the worst possible place. There viewers who use this website had recieved a 2:1 or even haven't got a degree. This website is openned to the public and around the world.

Do you realise how offending and confusing that is to many viewers who use the internet? It also make David Cameron look like a tool. Don't put it has the first set of paragraphs on the entire page, place it in the eduction section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.212.23 (talk) 19:31, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

WildBot
A few of us have been acting on WildBot's posts here and fixing links that require disambiguation. We've not been sure whether or not to remove WildBot's posts here once we've finished.

It looks like WildBot is cleaning up after itself ;-) Less work for us...

Cheers, <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 11:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request
Edit request of 17 May 2010

Under "Ancestors in politics and the aristocracy", we read

"husband of Lady Diana Cooper (da. of 8th. Duke of Rutland) the actress and society celebrity after whom the Mini Cooper motorcar was named."

The "Mini Cooper" was named after the Cooper Car Co. or John Cooper, its owner, and not after Lady Diana Cooper. The relative clause "after whom the Mini Cooper motorcar was named" is almost certainly vandalism and ought to be removed as soon as possible. It's sloppy stuff like this that gives Wikipedia a bad name. If an article needs to be protected, is there no mechanism for removing vandalism before doing so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.39.183.25 (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks! <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 13:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Link to coalition government
The term "coalition government" should link to the coalition government page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_government, to describe what exactly is a coalition government.

This link should appear in the 4th paragraph: "In the 2010 general election held on 6 May, the Conservatives gained a plurality of seats in a hung parliament. Brown resigned and Cameron was appointed Prime Minister on 11 May 2010, on the basis of a coalition between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. At the age of 43, Cameron became the youngest British Prime Minister in 198 years.[4] The Cameron Ministry is the first 'coalition government' in the United Kingdom since the Second World War and was formed 70 years virtually to the day after Churchill's in 1940.[5]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.87.144.97 (talk) 15:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * per WP:OVERLINK. "Coalition" is already linked to Coalition government earlier in the paragraph: ...on the basis of a coalition between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.... Cheers, <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 15:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

The Premiership of David Cameron

Pronunciation of 'Cameron'
I noticed the IPA transcription saying his surname is pronounced /ˈkəmrən/ - or 'Cumrun', in other words. Since the name is hardly an uncommon English name (I can think of a well-known film director with the same one), does it need transcribing? Especially when the transcription is a bizarre pronunciation that I've never heard anybody use? Would've changed it myself but thought I might be missing something. Psyklax (talk) 21:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that it doesn't really need a pronunciation note at all, and that he uses the common pronunciation, which is /ˈkæm.rən/. 81.142.107.230 (talk) 12:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The IPA's clearly wrong. You can't have two short schwa-syllables. Many would pronounce it as three syllables: /ˈkæmərən/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 19:51, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Wikipedia page Cameron (surname) gives the pronunciation of this surname as KAM-(ə)-rən, which covers both common pronunciations of the name. Can we have this on this page too?  Peteinterpol (talk) 05:35, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

70 years since last coalition
(cur | prev) 20:19, 25 May 2010 Cooltrainer Hugh (talk | contribs) (105,248 bytes) (Undid revision 364080399 by IXIA (talk) Not needed on this page.) (undo)

Cooltrainer Hugh has removed the interesting coincidence that Cameron formed his coalition virtually 70 years to the day since Churchill did so. Not sure why this is "not needed on this page": it's obviously far more important to know that Cameron is known to friends and family as 'Dave'! I shall venture a footnote. IXIA (talk) 05:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

IMO Both additions are not worthy of inclusion, even hidden away as footnotes. Off2riorob (talk) 07:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The 70-year observation violates WP:OR, specifically WP:SYN. You need a reliable source that makes the same observation. Grover cleveland (talk) 15:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The reason I said that was because your paragraph, though correct and interesting, is more about Churchill than Cameron, and seeing as the page is David Cameron, it shouldn't be included here. Cooltrainer Hugh (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

The fact is that this article, though it has GA status, is dull and lacking in historical context. I don't much care whether you like my addition or not, but it is perhaps the sort of thing that can enliven the better biographical studies. And it is not, if you'll forgive me, "more about Churchill": it is drawing parallels between the two. Also, the penultimate observation (Grover cleveland) is puzzling. Churchill's own memoir of the Second World War is a perfectly reliable source for dates in 1940, corroborated in many other places, and it's a fact that Cameron became PM on 11 May. The comment by Off2riorob is simply patronising. Anyway, I'll leave you all to it. IXIA (talk) 21:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * IXIA, perhaps if you clicked on the link I provided to WP:SYN you would find my remark less "puzzling". Just because we have a reliable source that says A, and another reliable source that says B, that doesn't permit us to put A and B together, if this implies a "new position" not found in any single one of the sources.  Here your "new position" is an implication that the Cameron government is in some sense a successor to Churchill's government, or comparable with it.  Unless this comparison is found in a reliable source then the WP:SYN ban applies.  Without WP:SYN, there would be nothing to stop an editor adding random stuff, such as e.g. "Cameron was born exactly 26 years to the day after a Nazi bomb hit St Pauls Cathedral".  Grover cleveland (talk) 22:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Well thank you but the fact that is is 70 years since harry met sally is meaningless to camerons biography, perhaps in the history of the conservative party article, but here it has nothing to do with this article. At least we agree on one thing, the article is poor. Good article is really just tidy and only an MOT and the wheels could be dropping off now. The article is bloated imo with excessive historic detail and family links. We could do a good article review as I don't think it has been assessed for a good while. As far as good article status goes, I can see promoted Oct 2007 but no review since then. Off2riorob (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your first point ("harry met sally"?), but at least we agree it's a crummy article, packed with a load of junk. IXIA (talk) 09:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * When harry met sally, as in..(the interesting coincidence that Cameron formed his coalition virtually 70 years to the day since Churchill did so.) pointless factoid that has got zero to do with the living person david camerons life story. Off2riorob (talk) 09:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Off2riorob. Where would we stop with this sort of coincidence?  Do we put in the number of years since the last Liberal deputy prime minister, or since a 43-year old Liberal leader, or a Prime Minister educated at Eton, etc., etc?  The 70-year fact is not a particularly unlikely coincidence or especially relevant to the article content.  Peteinterpol (talk) 10:18, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Tending to agree, also. Two reasons: firstly, this needs to be something that a reliable source has raised - otherwise it's our own interpretation (we're suggesting it's notable, without demonstrating that a reliable source considers it notable). Secondly, I think this article is too general: I'd suggest Premiership of David Cameron would be the place for this (once cited, obviously, and assuming t'editors at the Premiership article agree that this is notable). <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>propaganda 10:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't really want to press it, though I appreciate the considered observations directly above. The article itself does say that the coalition is the first since the Second World War. I just dislike the rather smug tone of certain commentators - historical parallels are no doubt terribly uncool, even though you can bet there'll be an article in History Today in the next few months that makes the very point. I doubt it's any more interesting to know that Cameron had his bike stolen or that he supports Aston Villa! Anyway, over and out. IXIA (talk) 12:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

No one is smug please be polite and focus on content and not contributors. That type of content will perhaps be better at this new article..Premiership_of_David_Cameron Off2riorob (talk) 16:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Cameron met Thatcher?
Cameron apparently met Thatcher on the 8th of June. Should this be included in the article?62.31.213.187 (talk) 18:33, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Conservative-led coalition
The introduction should describe Cameron's government as a Conservative-led coalition, since the Cabinet is nearly entirely formed by Conservatives with only four Liberal Democrats. It is very different from Ramsey Macdonald's coalition government which was led by a Labour Prime Minister but consisted mainly of Conservatives. In the newspapers the present government is usually described as "the Conservative-led coalition". (FranklinJessop (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC))
 * I haven't heard that, I have seen Lib-Con coalition and so on, have you got WP:citations that it is usually described like that, also that is already clear from reading the lede. Off2riorob (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Today's Telegraph describes the Budget as the first by the Conservative-led coalition government. (FranklinJessop (talk) 20:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC))
 * Could you please provide citations to support your claim that they are usually described this way, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 20:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you a sock of indefinitely blocked user User:HarveyCarter . I have tagged you as such.Off2riorob (talk) 20:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

What? I just think the introduction should mention that the present government is a predominantly Conservative one. (FranklinJessop (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC))

New image
I'm all for using up-to-date images, but is there anything better than the new one that's been put up? The previous image was a nice large and clear image. He's absolutely tiny in the image that's being used now, and completely dominated by the sign in the background. -- .: Alex  :.  16:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Current image is awful and needs to be changed. The previous image (Davos) looked better than this G8 one does. I hope that image was not taken by someone employed by the British taxpayer, what a waste!BritishWatcher (talk) 16:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I take it back, that current one looks ok now the horrible background has been cut. Well done BritishWatcher (talk) 16:50, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * EC..The last photo was good but sometime we need to move on and I have cropped the pic in an attempt to make it a bit better. The best thing it has going for it is that it is up to date. I am neutral as to if it is kept. Off2riorob (talk) 16:52, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hm, the crop is much better, but still not as good as the Davos one. This one still has a somewhat blurry look to it. I don't know whether we do anything about that? -- .: Alex  :.  16:54, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Davos, is a bit dated... the picture is a tad blurry and will need an expert to start further modifications (not me). Lets take a little while and see if it grows on us. Off2riorob (talk) 16:56, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I take davos dated back, actually that was also 2010, the davos picture was not perfect though imo and looking at the two and with the assumption that we will likely get pretty regular updated pics I support the change. Off2riorob (talk) 17:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there a better one over at http://www.flickr.com/photos/number10gov/ that people would support which could be used (where the new image came from), i presume theres no copyright problems with using one from there. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The copyrights all look ok there, I don't mind which pic is chosen, if you want any cropping I can do that. Off2riorob (talk) 17:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

On second look the pic is not compatible with commons and has been tagged and I have replaced the previous pic. Off2riorob (talk) 17:39, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

The Times article from 1993
The Times SAT 17 JUL 1993 "Generation X: the power seekers" Twentysomethings have confounded their detractors. Alice Thomson, 26, charts the rise of a ruling class Pity the twentysomethings. They were babies in the 1960s while their mothers were running bra-less and barefoot. They were children in the 1970s w...

That's the start to the article. Anyone got a subscription to the News International Archive? If so, does this article reference Cameron? 80.225.190.250 (talk) 18:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I have access to it. It does indeed mention Cameron, briefly: "David Cameron, 27, is current class leader and, like many, was at Eton and Oxford. (Young politicos from the state system prefer John Major's quiet-rise technique, and take lower profile jobs.) He moved from briefing the prime minister at PM's questions to being special adviser to Norman Lamont. In this position, from the election to the demise of his boss, he played a key role in policy making. After Mr Lamont's aggrieved departure for the back benches, Mr Cameron was wooed by Michael Howard at the Home Office." There is also mention of a novel, "Hard News" by Tess Stimson, whose protagonist is also named David Cameron. Alice Thomson's piece also mentions Steve Hilton, now Cameron's Director of Strategy, and interestingly also mentions Labour leadership contender David Miliband. Sam Blacketer (talk) 19:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Great that Miliband was mentioned as well. The reason I started looking was that there was plenty of great info regarding Cameron's early career where the refs are to articles without links - mostly The Times etc. I imagine they would be very interesting to read in full but alas, they're not freely accessible. 80.225.190.250 (talk) 22:39, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Changes to ancestral background
old - Cameron is a direct descendant of King William IV, uncle of Queen Victoria, (great × 5 grandfather) and his mistress Dorothea Jordan (and thus fifth cousin, twice removed of Queen Elizabeth II). As an illegitimate royal descendant Cameron is not in the line of succession to the British throne.

new - Cameron is an indirect descendant of King William IV and his mistress Dorothea Jordan. This illegitimate line consists of five direct generations of women on his father's maternal side starting with Lady Elizabeth FitzClarence, William IV's sixth illegitimate child from his mistress Dorothea Jordan nee Bland, [15] through to the fifth female generation Enid Agnes Maud Levita (Cameron’s maternal grandmother of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry). Enid's grandfather was Emile Levita a German émigré banker who became a British citizen in 1871. [16] Cameron's illegitimate link to the Royal Family is via his jewish grandmother's maternal line. [17] William IV’s direct line of descendants died out with the death of Anthony Charles FitzClarence Seventh Earl of Munster in 2000. [18] David Cameron is an illegitimate fifth cousin, twice removed of Queen Elizabeth II. [19] Cameron is the second British Prime Minister of Jewish ancestry the first being Benjamin Disraeli. [20]

Seems like quite a big change and mostly asserts Cameron is Jewish? I don't know if he is Jewish but I remember recently we had a lengthy discussion over the family background and as this is quite a big change I though to point it out. Some unformatted citations have also been added. The last citation there [20] doesn't support the comment imo, it doesn't mention Cameron is Jewish or the Disraeli is Jewish, in fact the op ed doesn't mention jewish at all? http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/11/david-cameron-disraeli-political-coup Off2riorob (talk) 14:30, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

One hundred and sixty years ago the grandfather of camerons grandmother was jewish, this is so distant and minuscule ancestor as to be not relevant at all. it makes Cameron about one thousandth percent jewish as in not jewish at all. We all walked out of africa, this far and away claim that he is Jewish is so distant as to have no relevance at all. Off2riorob (talk) 01:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Totally agree. Also, we do not need to know that "He is also a great × 4 great-nephew of James Hanway Plumridge.[25]"  This seems excessive detail. Hallucegenia (talk) 07:42, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It should be considered that Cameron's small element of Jewish ancestry might be of interest to Jewish readers of Wikipedia. I can see no reason for removal of this valuable reference. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC))

Ancestry
I'm going to go ahead and question why on earth ancestry has such a large section at all. It seems to be giving undue weight to a certain aspect of his life, which contributes to giving the article a non-neutral point of view. Coverage in the article should be in proportion to the coverage given in reliable sources. Maintaining a neutral point of view is of utmost importance as David Cameron is, obviously, a living person.

If, due to the large literature on any person holding the office of Prime Minister, a large section can be written by focusing on his ancestry, but that the section that results is disproportionately long (due to that focus), it should be split to form a new article. Title it 'Family of David Cameron', similarly to 'Family of Barack Obama'. Then, a summary paragraph or two can be put in the article, with a Main link to the exhaustive article about his family and ancestry.

What are the thoughts on this matter? Bastin 08:08, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Go for it. What I would leave in the main article are: (1) names of parents and grandparents; (2) the source of the family fortune; and (3) the link through William IV to the Queen. Everything else should go into a well-signposted 'Family of David Cameron' or Family and Ancestry of David Cameron' article.  If no-one objects within a week of your original question, I would take that as consensus and just do it, flagging it as such in the edit summary. Hallucegenia (talk) 09:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I think the section is currently fine, given that he has a number of ancestors with wikipedia entries who should be discussed in the main article. A number of his ancestors are notable, according to wikipedia's criteria for notability, in way that Obama's are not: therefore they deserve to be discussed in the main article (as is the case for Churchill, Boris Johnson and many other wikipedia biographies).  Avaya1 (talk) 13:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Cameron does indeed have a number of ancestors and relations with Wikipedia entries. But the article on Boris Johnson only mentions 11 other wikilinked people who are related to the subject;  and even the aristocratic Churchill only has 13.  This article on Cameron mentions no less than 29 related individuals with wikilinked entries, which rather supports the argument that it is excessive. But do please check my counting. Regards.  Hallucegenia (talk) 14:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In terms of the number of relatives listed, it may be bigger than those articles, but the section of the article uses up less size on the page, which is surely the important factor here. It's a relatively concise section, not difficult to scroll through if you're uninterested in it. Avaya1 (talk) 14:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The historic section is a bit excess imo also, shovel it off to a separate article, the genetic history of David Cameron. Off2riorob (talk) 14:28, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "Genetic history?" Really?! Richard75 (talk) 20:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it should be split as per Family of Barack Obama, particularly as this article is currently 114KB long and sometimes difficult to load and edit. TheRetroGuy (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

It is always of great interest to the world to know the descent of a US President, i.e. that J.F. Kennedy came from a certain village in Ireland, George Washington from a village in Norfolk, and that Ronald Reagan was purportedly related to Princess Diana. Whether that interest serves an academic function, or is merely of passing interest to some, is not relevant. It adds to the value of the article. Cameron's ancestry is of great interest to many, for example to journalists, in the USA where there is a great interest in genealogy, and in the Scottish and Jewish communities, to which Cameron has links. To understand a man's roots is to begin to understand the man - not to stereotype him, but to see how he accepts his roots or rebels against them. The article is about the whole man, not just his political aspect. For those interested in the genealogy of Cameron - and there are many - Wikipedia offers a valuable service as the provider of a wide range of information. Wikipedia should not be in the business of supressing factual information, unless totally irrelevant under any heading. The starting point for any biography should be family descent, for which reason the section should certainly remain in the main biographical article. It already forms in effect a separate chapter, easily skipped-over by those not interested. If the chapter on his family is to be moved to a new article, why not that on his education too? The Wikipedia article has arguably become the definitive article on this British PM, a source of reference. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:17, 10 September 2010 (UTC))

Youngest PM at time of appointment
"At the age of 43, Cameron became the youngest British Prime Minister since the Earl of Liverpool 198 years earlier."

Might it be an idea to mention his age at the time of appointment as Prime Minister as 43 years 214 days (or however many it was) in order to distinguish him from Tony Blair who was also 43 years old, and was at the time the youngest PM since Liverpool? Cooltrainer Hugh (talk) 14:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

No. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.64.226 (talk) 16:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

...any real responses? Cooltrainer Hugh (talk) 12:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems a bit much, imo, adds nothing sort of addition. Off2riorob (talk) 12:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Since Cameron is younger than Blair was in 1997 it is completely irrelevant. (92.11.233.249 (talk) 18:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC))


 * Agree that the distinction is of value, but the current wording implies that all since Liverpool have been pensioners, which is misleading as Cameron succeeded another very young one. Indeed now an old PM would be unusual, not a young one, which is now unremarkable. The point of reference to Liverpool has become a cliche and needs to be replaced with something more relevant. I would suggest "he is the Xth youngest ever PM after 1/, 2/, Liverpool et al." That might be of more interest, if you feel inclined to research the data. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC))

No. All Prime Ministers in recent memory have been fairly young so Blair is irrelevant here. (92.3.241.14 (talk) 14:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC))

Breaches of protocol at Prime Minister's Questions
I previously removed the sentences within the section 'Prime Minister' which describe the above in some detail. This takes up nearly half of the section 'Prime Minister', which seems disproportionate - these sentences describe background colour, they would be better transferred to the article Premiership of David Cameron. Since the more detailed article exists the section 'Prime Minister' should surely be limited to a broad brush overview - key dates, achievements and criticisms. Off2riorob reverted but I disagree. Any thoughts? Londonarchitect (talk) 12:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that it is disproportionate at the moment. A sentence in this article would suffice I think. The text as it stands currently takes up more text space than the coalition formation. This is a WP:SUMMARY section. Woody (talk) 12:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree it seems rather problematic. A sentence or two on general performance at question time would be suitable, but a whole paragraph on these two "breaches of protocol" which sound far more serious than it really is, seems a bit of an over reaction and gives it undue weight BritishWatcher (talk) 12:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The book waving incident and attempting to quote from it is extremely notable, I would like to keep that in preference to neither. Off2riorob (talk) 18:50, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Firstly can you provide any references which support your characterisation of the book incident as 'extremely notable'? And secondly do you not agree that even if retained, this paragraph represents a level of detail that would be better suited to the Premiership of David Cameron article? Londonarchitect (talk) 14:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, accepted, either move it there or leave a single comment here, there is a weight of support for that, regards. Feel free to revert or alter, I have removed the book stuff but kept the first date for PMQs as I think this is noteworthy and cited it and added a small comment.Off2riorob (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Change of Image
I was thinking that this image File:Davidcameron.jpg is a better picture than the current image used on the page. Does anyone have an opinion on this and if so, should the picture be changed? MWhite 15:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Surely someone could put in a request to the Number 10 website asking for permission to use the official photos on Wikipedia. 79.64.154.131 (talk) 16:48, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

That picture is ok but fails the time test, it is from 2006 and the pic we have in the infobox now is from 2010. Off2riorob (talk) 18:48, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

A picture from 2006 would be better as he had more hair then. (92.11.242.106 (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC))

I suggest you read WP:NPOV. You cannot just add a pic of your favorite politician at his best. The photograph has to be a fair representation.--Courageous (talk) 00:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

cats
I removed him from the cat, British people of Jewish descent. He has a maximum of one eigth part and that is to distant imo to warrant calling and categorizing him as a person of Jewish descent. Off2riorob (talk) 15:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Good call, you didn't need to post as to why you removed it. Any reasonable person wouldn't have reverted your edits. They were very good.--Courageous (talk) 00:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

'Political Commentary' aka 'Criticism'?
Wiki Best practice dictates that 'political commentary' (aka criticism) is built within the main article. I see the using of the term 'political commentary' as nothing more than a smokescreen for a ideologically-driven npov criticism section. Please refer to the Tony Blair Gordon Brown and Barack Obama entries for examples of best practice. I am quite happy to do the work but will give some time for other editors to consider my view.Twobells (talk) 10:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Go for it, the section was titled to political commentary as a good faith improvement on criticisms and much of the content within was trimmed and NPOV'ed sometime last year as I was involved in a minor way. I will also say that I would dispute that the content within the present section is ideologically - driven criticism, but just more notable issues or landmarks in his career that received a degree of reporting. You are more than welcome to attempt to integrate the individual issues into the general body of the article as per best practice. Off2riorob (talk) 11:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

new pic
There is a new pic that seems like it is getting the all clear. I will post it here for comment as to if users support its inclusion in the infobox. To see how it looks in the infobox, see here - Off2riorob (talk) 00:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a much better picture than the current picture, but it needs to be cropped a bit more. MWhite 18:23, 20 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwhite148 (talk • contribs)

Added. Off2riorob (talk) 20:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Israel Section, what was the cause of complaints
There is an Israel section that has criticism listed against Cameron about Israel. However, it doesn't site what the comments that provoked these responses were. What he said should be listed in this section.121.54.41.121 (talk) 15:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Redirects
I just looked at what redirects here, and found that Bumsex does so. (No, your honour, I wasn't looking up Bumsex on Wikipedia.) Not sure how to sort this out but I'm sure someone knows how to get it deleted. Bluewave (talk) 22:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've reverted the redirect and protected that page (it looks like it's up for deletion - I'm not going to mess with that as I tend to avoid CSD stuff. For now, the redirect seems at least somewhat logical.) Alexius  Horatius  22:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'd hate to think that people who came to Wikipedia looking for serious information about bumsex were getting a disappointing redirect to the David Cameron article. Seriously, this kind of vandalism is something we need to be vigilant about. I first reported similar offensive redirects to the Gordon Brown article about a year ago and it looks like the same kind of thing is cropping up again. Bluewave (talk) 22:26, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * These people make me sick. I'd suggest you put a message on Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard to get it oversighted, i.e removed.  Hopefully the perpetrator will be banned. Political biographies should be permanently semi-protected.


 * JRPG (talk) 20:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Multiculturalism is a failure
Cameron stated that the "doctrine of state multiculturalism" (promoted by the previous Labour government) has failed and will be no longer be state policy<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/david-cameron/8305346/Muslims-must-embrace-our-British-values-David-Cameron-says.html He stated that the UK needed a stronger national identity and signalled a tougher stance on groups promoting Islamist extremism.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

Can someone add this?87.114.229.119 (talk) 09:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It's already in the article - and probably has too much prominence as it is. If it needs to be written in more detail, the best articles for that would be Premiership of David Cameron and Muscular liberalism. Bastin 10:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Age at time of inauguration compared to Tony Blair?
I may have misread, but I see on Tony Blair's page, it states that he was the youngest prime minister since Robert Jenkinson, 2nd Earl of Liverpool, yet at the same time David Cameron's entry claims that he was the youngest since Robert Jenkinson, 2nd Earl of Liverpool? Can someone figure this out? Eric Douglas Statzer (talk) 00:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Both are true and the two statements are not in conflict. The key to the mystery is that Cameron was younger than Blair when first appointed. So first Blair became the youngest PM since Lord Liverpool, and then Cameron took the same title off Blair. You might want to argue that Blair's biography should make it clear that he has subsequently been deprived of the honour of being 'youngest PM since Liverpool', but it was true at the time. Sam Blacketer (talk) 00:43, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Perfect! Thank you. Eric Douglas Statzer (talk) 05:28, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Policies and Views
The heading's text overlies the image. Can someone quickly repair this issue? Thanks. Eric Douglas Statzer (talk) 11:22, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

'Political commentary' section
The 'Political commentary' section basically seems like a collection of criticisms on some editors' specific hobby horses. Per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP, it should be diffused, restructured, and re-edited so that the article has the same balance of content as reliable sources, and not just the reliable sources that editors want to use to illustrate the point that they want to make. Bastin 11:57, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Elder daughter
"In early May 2008, David Cameron decided to enroll his daughter Nancy at a state school."

Why is this relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lexiyh (talk • contribs) 14:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Because he's rich so you'd expect him to pay to get the best education, but instead he sends her to a public school to show his support. Imagine the controversy if he didn't! Buddenon (talk) 16:57, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In the UK a "public school" is an expensive private school - hence the term "state school" (I'm not making this up, although it is April 1st) NBeale (talk) 06:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Cricism from political opponents
I've removed "Former Labour cabinet minister Hazel Blears has said of Cameron, "You have to wonder about a man who surrounds himself with so many people who went to the same school. I'm pretty sure I don't want 21st-century Britain run by people who went to just one school." " because in the article on Ed Miliband a couple of editors have removed a ref to an attack by Boris Johnson on Ed M on the grounds that it is a "political opponent sounding off" (see "Martin Luther Miliband" on the Ed Miliband talk page. Personally I think this is absurd but I do think we should have some consistency on this. 06:41, 1 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBeale (talk • contribs)
 * Stop playing games. If you have a problem with the Ed Miliband article, discuss it there, instead of making WP:pointy changes to other pages. <b style="color:darkblue;">SNALWIBMA</b> ( <b style="color:#2F4F4F;">talk</b> - <b style="color:#2F4F4F;">contribs</b> ) 06:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes indeedy, support for that Snalwibma. Off2riorob (talk) 16:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Hellomynameisntsam, 28 April 2011
nothing should be removed but something should be added. david cameron told a female mp to calm down dear, and to listen to the doctor (referring to himself) many people believe this is sexist. when asked to apologise, cameron refused. my source is, just look it up... youtube, facebook, bbc.co.uk... anywhere

Hellomynameisntsam (talk) 19:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless it turns in to a huge deal, note WP:NOTNEWS, and actual provide sources, not facebook or youtube...bbc would be ok C T J F 8 3  20:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Libya
Is it worth mentioning that Cameron is the first Prime Minister to deploy military force in North Africa since Eden? (92.20.43.27 (talk) 16:20, 30 April 2011 (UTC))


 * No. It's worth mentioning that he deployed force in Libya, but factoids about North Africa are not notable. Bastin 17:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It is since this is the first time we have been involved there since Suez. (92.20.43.27 (talk) 21:14, 30 April 2011 (UTC))


 * Bastin is right. The decision to push for a United Nations Security Council Resolution (and the use of UK military capacity in pursuance of it) is significant, especially since sources generally ascribe the decision to David Cameron's personal push. But it is original research to link the Libya deployment to the very different circumstances of the Suez crisis merely because they are in the same region, and gives rise to suspicion that it is an attempt to convey that the result of the Libya deployment may be similarly disastrous (which is pure speculation). Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Cameron, Jewish?
http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/national/c-13853/cameron-i-will-empower-uk-jews/

He "... described learning about his Jewish ancestors as one of the highlights of his year." He "... spoke of learning about his ancestors, the Levitas, as a personal highlight."


 * He's not Jewish, but has a small amount of Jewish ancestry, as is stated in the second paragraph of the Family section. Jim Michael (talk) 20:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

POV image?
The image at David_Cameron was deleted on April 23, then restored on May 9 - with an unjustified block threat against the editor who removed it. Personally, I am not sure that the image is consistent with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Any comments? Viewfinder (talk) 10:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Would an authoritative biography published of David Cameron have such a picture if (a) it had only 13 pictures or (b) if it could only have one picture to illustrate his popularity?  The answer to both is no.  So while it may have some relevance, and may be included at some juncture or in some sub-article, it should not be there and now, per WP:UNDUE. Bastin 19:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I concur with the above comments. They are certainly valid pictures for an article on the cuts but not for this article. They are not representative of the published sources and they only reflect one point of view. They are certainly not neutral and rather ironically the sentiments expressed by the editor in the edit summary that inserted these pictures should apply to themselves. Woody (talk) 23:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and done it proactively, per WP:BLP. Bastin 07:51, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request for Turkey and Israel section
The quote starting "Turkey is 100 per cent right..." was not actually by Cameron, it is a childish paraphrasing by some Israeli professor. Generally I try to ignore reading about Israeli/Palestinian politics, and every time I read a wikipedia page and come across some completely pointless edit by someone intent on turning every page on the internet into a pro-Israel/anti-Islam campaigning ground, I become just a little bit more anti-semite. Juichirotanizaki (talk) 01:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. I think it should be sufficient.Derekbd (talk) 15:52, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There was undue weight to the minutae of his stance towards Israel. "Not everyone agreed" with is speech is a statement of the obvious! NBeale (talk) 18:37, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Update standing in opinion polls
As of now http://today.yougov.co.uk/sites/today.yougov.co.uk/files/yg-archives-pol-st-results-27-290511.pdf

Cameron has a net +2% approval rating. This compares to a net -19% approval rating of Miliband and net -56% approval rating of Clegg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.220.128 (talk) 19:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I think there should be updated how David Cameron's perception in the media and in society has been weakened in the wake of the severe hacking scandal at News of the World and News International, and how his judgement regarding appointing NOTW ex-editor Andy Coulson has been put into question, not to mention his parties' unwillingness to stop BskyB takeover by Rupert Murdoch.Laydsb (talk) 23:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Hangs Head in Shame at Remembrance Day Service Over Cuts?
As it is Armistice Day, I hope he read of the suicides of former soldier Mark Mullins and his disabled wife, reported in the Daily Mail [<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059238/Army-veteran-Mark-Mullins-wife-Helen-driven-suicide-poverty.html>] who killed themselves after 18 months of struggling to survive on the £57.50 Jobseeker's Allowance payment Mr Mullins, a 48-year-old former Army physical training instructor, was able to claim, having to walk 12 miles to eat free soup at a Salvation Army soup kitchen. 79.70.225.21 (talk) 01:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)I'll remember them, if he doesn't 79.70.225.21 (talk) 01:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 78.150.72.119, 28 June 2011
{{Infobox prime minister
 * honorific-prefix = The Right Honourable
 * name            = David Cameron
 * honorific-suffix = MP
 * image           = Official-photo-cameron.png
 * imagesize       = 245px
 * alt             = A man, clean shaven, with short straight dark brown swept back hair wearing a suit jacket, white shirt and blue tie
 * caption         =
 * office          = 75th Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
 * monarch         = Elizabeth II
 * deputy          = Nick Clegg
 * term_start      = 11 May 2010
 * term_end        =
 * predecessor     = Gordon Brown
 * successor       =
 * office2         = Leader of the Opposition
 * monarch2        = Elizabeth II
 * primeminister2  = Tony Blair Gordon Brown
 * term_start2     = 6 December 2005
 * term_end2       = 11 May 2010
 * predecessor2    = Michael Howard
 * successor2      = Harriet Harman
 * office3         = Leader of the Conservative Party
 * term_start3     = 6 December 2005
 * term_end3       =
 * predecessor3    = Michael Howard
 * successor3      =
 * office4         = Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Skills
 * leader4         = Michael Howard
 * term_start4     = 6 May 2005
 * term_end4       = 6 December 2005
 * predecessor4    = Tim Yeo
 * successor4      = David Willetts
 * office5         = Member of Parliament for Witney
 * term_start5     = 7 June 2001
 * term_end5       =
 * predecessor5    = Shaun Woodward
 * successor5      =
 * majority5       = 22,740 (39.4%)
 * birth_date      = {{birth date and age|1966|10|9|df=y}}
 * birth_place     = London, England, United Kingdom
 * death_date      =
 * death_place     =
 * nationality     = {{flagicon|United Kingdom}} British
 * party           = Conservative
 * spouse          = Samantha Sheffield (m. 1996–present)
 * children        = Ivan Reginald Ian (deceased) Nancy Gwen Arthur Elwen Florence Rose Endellion
 * relations       = Sir William Mount, 2nd Baronet (grandfather, deceased) Sir Ewen Cameron (great-great-grandfather) Sir William Dugdale (uncle)
 * residence       = 10 Downing Street (Official)
 * alma_mater      = Brasenose College, Oxford
 * religion        = Church of England
 * website         = Conservative Party website

78.150.72.119 (talk) 20:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, please correct me if I am wrong but your edit seems to be only changing top the infobox adding this 75th Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to the top which is a redlink and looking at previous MP Gordon Brown he is not numbered like that, I have not done the edit request but please comment more what you were trying to do, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 21:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources of funding
Significant donations made to the Conservative Party through a company controlled by Baron Ashcroft, appointed Deputy Chairman of the party by Cameron, have come under scrutiny. The trading status of the company, and thus the validity of donations totalling £3m, is unclear and is the subject of an investigation by the Electoral Commission begun in October 2008. There have been calls from Labour MPs and the Prime Minister for the process to be concluded in time for the next general election, due by mid-2010. Liberal Democrat Baron Oakeshott stated: "Democracy is in danger if Lord Ashcroft has been pouring millions into Conservative campaigns through an offshore pipeline from a Caribbean tax haven."

A further Electoral Commission investigation was begun into donations of £264,000 made by Zac Goldsmith, a Conservative parliamentary candidate and adviser to Cameron on green issues. It is alleged that two payments were invalid owing to Goldsmith not being entered on the Electoral roll. Goldsmith has a personal wealth of £300m and holds properties in an offshore trust, leading to comparisons with the status of Baron Ashcroft. With the discovery that Goldsmith was non-domiciled for tax purposes, Cameron stated: "He's obviously going to end this status and become a full UK taxpayer and he needs to do that as rapidly as can be done."

In February 2010 the Financial Times reported that donations totalling £16m were received from sources linked to the City in the four years from January 2006, with funding obtained from the financial sector having quadrupled since Cameron became leader. Four donors contributed a total of £7m, these including the Conservative Party co-treasurers Michael Spencer and Stanley Fink. Labour MP Emily Thornberry has accused the party of a lack of consistency, saying: "The Tories claim they will not be seduced by City wealth and try to talk tough on bankers but the large donations they continue to receive tell another story." The party insists that donations have "no influence" on policy.

Election
Shouldn't the article mention the fact that it would have been impossible for the Conservative Party to win a majority in the 2010 General Election? (92.7.24.95 (talk) 16:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC))


 * No, because it wasn't. Sam Blacketer (talk) 17:33, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It was actually. With Labour paying over 8 million adults of working age to live on benefits, as well as importing more than three million immigrants in a deliberate attempt to keep the Conservatives out of power (by their own admission), it wis impossible for the Conservatives to win a majority in any General Election. The UK is a very different country from the one which elected Mrs Thatcher in 1979 and 1983. Plus since Labour broke up the UK with devolution it guarantees Scotland receives far more money than England. The only way the Conservatives can ever win a majority is if Scotland becomes independent. (92.7.24.95 (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2011 (UTC))


 * The purpose of a talk page is to discuss improvements to the article, not to have a general discussion about the topic. If you want to add to the brief discussion of the 2010 election then it has to be based on what reliable sources say. You might wish to read, for instance, chapter 16 of the Nuffield Study 'The British General Election of 2010' by Dennis Kavanagh and Philip Cowley, especially the section on pages 335-339 which discussed "Why .. did the Conservatives fail to achieve a clear majority?". It doesn't identify any of the issues you mention, I'm afraid, and I understand Andrew Neather disputes the interpretation you are making of his October 2009 column. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:59, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The simple fact is that there will never be a Conservative government ever again, only a Conservative prime minister of a coalition with the left-wing Liberal Democrats. With over 8 million people choosing not to work and voting Labour to keep their benefits it is impossible for the Conservatives to ever win a majority. Plus Labour have now admitted that they deliberately encouraged uncontrolled immigration after 1997 to keep the Conservatives out of office. It would be unfair if anyone reading the article believed that the UK was in any way similar to how it was when the Conservatives won in 1979 and 1983 before the last Labour government altered the ethnic makeup of the country. (92.7.24.95 (talk) 22:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC))


 * Talk pages aren't supposed to be used for a general discussion, but just to make this observation: I can remember a lot of articles and a few books being written in the early 1990s on the subject of why it was impossible for the Labour Party ever to win a general election again. I wonder what happened in the general elections of 1997, 2001 and 2005. Parties change, the political system changes, countries change, but one thing doesn't: the public like to change their governments every now and then. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Labour changed its name and adopted several of Mrs Thatcher's policies to make itself electable in England. If John Reid had replaced Blair instead of Brown they might have held on. (92.7.24.95 (talk) 22:41, 28 August 2011 (UTC))
 * This is not a forum. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:53, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Jamesthecat (talk) 21:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC) This discussion, though, has highlighted the point that this is a very emotive topic where no consenus is liable to be reached. (A consensus on this might take a hundred years or so, and there would still probably be arguing.) There is a need to examine what should be put in this article.

It would be useful to stick to specific facts in the article.
 * I agree with the last part but there is simply nothing to reach consensus about. One person posting their opinion is not a fact.  If a genuine argument in reputable sources comes about that the Conservatives couldn't have won the election because of immigrants and people claiming benefits then it should be included - along with the counter arguments.  But it won't because this simplistic "them against us" ignores the fact that plenty of immigrants and benefit claimants do vote conservative, it also ignores the reality of the First Past the Post system where you don't need a majority.CaptainJ(t 10:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Length
This article is very long for an encyclopedia article and could do with some severe pruning. It is more like a specialist biography than an encylopedia entry. The style of writing needs to be very concise and every point needs to be examined for specific relevance, and avoidance of repetition.

Levita links in ancestral chart
Hi, the links from ggrandfather Sir Arthur Levita and gggrandfather Sir Emile Levita both lead to an incorrect page (Cecil Levita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Levita ) when clicked. 70.74.195.240 (talk) 09:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Removed as per my investigation of your report, many thanks - You  really  can  19:55, 17 March 2012 (UTC)