Talk:David Davies (swimmer)

Nationality
I've reinstated the nationality flag. It is quite usual to have a nationality flag in the infobox of swimmers, divers & water polo players' pages (e.g. Grant Hackett, Klete Keller, João Havelange, Katie Hoff, Haley Ishimatsu, Jason Lezak, Yevgeny Lagunov, Roxana Maracineanu, Stefan Hirniak, Nelson Mora and many, many more - including three out of the four swimming featured articles: Kevin O'Halloran; Sandra Morgan; and Faith Leech). Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 16:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've just removed it per WP:MOSFLAG. All the flags of the other articles should be removed per that policy, including the FAs. The manual of style trumps all examples of articles.


 * On a seperate issue, I was just reverted on the basis David Davies is a "Welsh swimmer who swam for Wales". He's also a British swimmer who swam for Great Britain though so the arguement is void. The issue on the home nations nationality is an old chestnut - the gentlemens agreement has been that English/Scottish/Welsh etc goes in the lead and catergories, and their respective countries are given as the place of birth, but the nationality field of any infobox goes as British. It's always been a fair compromise. --Jza84 | Talk  22:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * With respect, it is not a "fair compromise" if the person's nationality is Welsh rather than "British". Yes, he swam for "Team GB" as it's misnamed (no such country!), but so what? He's Welsh by default. You confuse citizenship with nationality. I have a British passport and am a British citizen - no choice in that - but my nationality is Welsh not British. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * How does one acquire Welsh nationality? What is the criteria? What does the law say on such matters? Scholarly interpretations? Do you not think your politics have compromised your viewpoint? How does one become Welsh by default? Does anybody have British nationality? --Jza84 | Talk  00:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said in the first post in this thread: It is quite usual to have a nationality flag in the infobox of swimmers, divers & water polo players' pages. And that includes three out of the four swimming featured articles. I note that you haven't even attempted to remove the nationality flags from any of the articles I highlighted. Why not, if you feel so stongly about it? This man is Welsh. The BBC call him a Welshman twice in the first two paragraphs here. Even the Torygraph talks of his 'beloved Cardiff' and note him as a 'proud Welsh speaker'. And here he is with the flag you don't think he has the right to show on his Wikipedia article. By the way, if you were to have looked at his medal record you would have seen that he is noted as a competitor for Great Britain (with flag!). There is your gentlemen's agreement. Once the flags have been removed from all the swimming articles noted above, I will personally remove it from this one too. Daicaregos (talk) 12:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It may be "usual to have a nationality flag in the infobox of swimmers", however the template documentation clearly states "Do not use a flag template". Discussion should be held on the template talk page to get this changed if you think it is an issue. NO other British swimmer has a flag template in the nationality field due to this statement in the template documentation. Yboy83 (talk) 13:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In response to Enaidmawr, it is "Great Britain" because Northern Ireland competes with Ireland under "Ireland" in swimming, so "United Kingdom" is not really acceptable. For swimming and the Olympics, the country's name is "Great Britain"; despite that that name refers to an island, not a political country. Hooperswim (talk) 22:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

WP:BRD
Transcluded from User talk:Daicaregos

I have undone your undoing of my edits to the David Davies page. I did not get rid of any of the biographical information present in my re-write, I simply moved it out of the introduction, to make the intro succinct. I made the intro to the article more generalized, so that it was an easier thing to read and better summarizes Davies importance/significance. I also tried to better separate his swimming for Great Britain and Wales. Also, there was a problem issue with one of the references, where it was implying that the linked reference was about the 2008 Olympics race, when, in actuality, the linked article was about the qualifying race Davies swam to get to the Olympics. There are other edits as well, designed to correct (Wales is the nation's name, not "Welsh"), or better locate (Barry is in Wales, UK, as well as the mentioned vale). Hooperswim (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * This edit was reverted per WP:BRD. BRD's full title is BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Please do not add back a reverted edit until consensus is reached at the article's Talkpage. Some of the series of edits were uncontroversial, but some weren't. I have amended the controversial edits. Please gain consensus here before re-adding. Nationality in the infobox has been discussed already on this Talkpage. Further discussion was held at the infobox Talkpage (in which you participated) and nothing has changed since. It is established, reliably sourced, and AFAIK undisputed, that Davies self-identifies, and is known as, Welsh. I have removed the Union flag in the infobox per MOS:FLAGS, which says: "Do not use too many icons: When icons are added excessively, they clutter the page and become redundant …". MOS:DOB provides examples of how a biography should begin. It says “At the start of an article on an individual, his or her dates of birth and death are provided." For example: "Charles Robert Darwin FRS (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist.". I have also amended Davies' place of birth, per WP:UKNOWGOV, which says “The top level frame of reference is the country within the UK (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales) and is not ordinarily linked
 * Example Foo is a town in the X district of Barshire, England.”


 * I have pipe-linked Davies' nationality to Welsh people, per Nationality of people from the United Kingdom, which states “Various different methods of referring to a UK citizen's nationality have been adopted …” (examples given include the pipe-link to English people). Should you disagree with these changes, the article should be reverted to the position prior to your recent edit, and consensus gained here before any further changes. Daicaregos (talk) 13:20, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The British flag & 'Great Britain' should be restored to the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 18:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a compelling, intelligent and well constructed argument, but hasn't quite swayed me. Daicaregos (talk) 19:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Why doesn't it persuade you? The guy swam for Team Great Britain. Besides, isn't Wales within the United Kingdom? GoodDay (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If you'd bothered to read my post you would know the answer to your question. With which part of my argument do you disagree? BTW when did you first hear of 'the guy'? Rather recently, I guess? Daicaregos (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's best we leave it up to the editors who frequent Olympic swimming articles (like Hooperswim). Something that should've intially been done at Tom Pryce (concerning Formula #1 editors). BTW: I was just gonna ask when did you take a sudden interest in Olympic swimmers articles. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I've left a note on your Talkpage. It would be inappropriate here. Daicaregos (talk) 17:56, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey, Daicaregos, the reasons for why I included things no longer there:
 * In what country is the "Barry" that Mr. Davies was born in? Right now, the country appears to be the "Vale of Glamorgan". I'm also not a big fan of having 2-5 links for a city locations (i.e. city, county, state/province/region/area/time zone/etc. each separately) when 1 will get them to the actual locality of things, and if someone wants to know more about the next area up, they can get there from the city page. (I had added in "Wales, UK" to help localize it; with the UK on there because I fear that not many readers know where Wales is--just as many people seem to not understand that "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" are not the same thing, sport-/swimming-wise.) Hence, one link to Barry, Vale of Glamorgan, Wales, UK.
 * I believe that each sport nationality a swimmer represents (or has represented) should be denoted in the infobox. The steps to change sport nationality are quite cumbersome, and consequently, most swimmers (and athletes in general) do not enter it lightly. Nor do they do it often, tending to have maybe 2 in a career, if they have more than 1. And generally speaking, Davies may identify as Welsh, but he mostly swims for Great Britain internationally; it is only in Commonwealth Games competition (once every 4 years?) where he swims for Wales, no?
 * And I went with moving away from "Welsh swimmer" to "swimmer from Wales", in the intro sentence because Davies is technically a "Welsh and British swimmer" (the current sentence should read "...Welsh Commonwealth and British Olympic swimmer..." as "Wales" does not compete at the Olympics.
 * The Olympics should be prioritized over the CWGs, as the Olympics are more universal.
 * And Davies still holds the British Records, no? (although I do understand why you switch to "held")
 * Hooperswim (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Hiya Hooperswim. Thank you for discussing this. Your expansion of the article is welcome. However, please note that (per WP:LEAD) the lead serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of its most important aspects. Consequently, nothing should be in the lead that isn't in the main body of the article. Articles, especially biographies, are subject to personal choice only within Wikipedia policies. I set out above the policies, relevant to recent edits, that govern this article. Nevertheless, I am happy to answer your specific points: Barry is, of course, in Wales. Normally, it would be set out as "Barry, Wales", but the sentence carries on to say “Davies swam for Wales … ” and the preceding sentence says he is Welsh. If a reader is still unable to work out where Barry is, they can click on the link. I reiterate the relevant policy given above, WP:UKNOWGOV, which says "The top level frame of reference is the country within the UK (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales) and is not ordinarily linked *Example Foo is a town in theX district of Barshire, England." Personal preference is, I'm afraid, trumped by policy. I thought it sounded redundant, but if you want the second sentence to say “Born in Barry, Wales, Davies swam for Wales at the 2002 and 2006 Commonwealth Games and represented Great Britain at the 2004 and 2008 Olympics. “ I wouldn't object. Infobox:  I reiterate the relevant policy given above, MOS:FLAGS, which says: "Do not use too many icons: When icons are added excessively, they clutter the page and become redundant …".British Swimming notes Davies' “Country of International Representation” as Wales. Davies' medal record notes him as a competitor for Great Britain, as well as for Wales. Although, your contention that competitors represent the island, rather than UK would mean that the Union Flag should be removed, as there is no flag to represent the island of Great Britain. I disagree with your argument that as Davies is a  "Welsh and British swimmer". He is a Welsh swimmer, who represents Wales and Great Britain at the sport. Consequently, the introduction should begin "David Davies (born 3 March 1985) is a Welsh … ". Whether it continues "...  Commonwealth Games and Olympic distance swimmer.", or is amended to something like " … distance swimmer.", or " … distance swimmer and British  record holder.", we can agree later. Davies swam at the Commonwealth Games and subsequently competed at the Olympics. The order of events should be maintained. Records: Although Davies still holds those records, the artilce will be incorrect immediately those records are broken by someone else. WP:RELTIME discusses events that will become out of date (there may be more appropriate policies or guidelines, if you know of them, please highlight them here). The example given there showed  a 'current' event that used the past tense. Best, Daicaregos (talk) 17:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

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