Talk:David Hackworth/Archive 1

Untitled
This article has a few grammar problems and should be cleaned up --Prospero 06:06, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What more can be said about this patriotic American? Stevertigo


 * Well, a list of medals awarded would be nice. When they were awarded would be cool. Funkyj

I would fix the grammar mistakes, but I can't. The things locked. --Kross 04:07, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Chronological Mistake
I agree that the article needs a clean-up for the reasons given above. It also contains this statement that is clearly in error:

''Hackworth was eventually assigned to Germany in the 1960s as an Infantry company commander under Colonel Glover S. Johns, and learned a great deal of the skills that were needed to be an effective officer from this old warhorse. He was involved in a number of fire drills around the Berlin Blockade, and his exploits at the time were rivaled only by the loyalty of his troops and the growth in his leadership skills and style that he enjoyed. His reflections on military history are there for all to read in his autobiography "About Face."''

The Berlin Blockade lasted from 24 June 1948 to 11 May 1949 - so Hackworth could not have been involved in it. The author probably meant the building of the Berlin Wall, which began on 13 August 1961.

Textor 06:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Added the Medals
I think the page was locked because it was linked to from the "Deaths" section on the mainpage. --Jpbrenna 01:24, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious how his uniform jacket would look with all his authorized decorations (you know, the uniform that the Army says is equivalent to a business suit) --- it would probably go practically over his shoulder Eddieuny 17:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

He only wore the important ones, and since most of those were with multiple clusters, the ribbons did not take up that much room on his chest. They did not even look particularly impressive until you got close enough to see what they actually were.

You're both talking about the Class A uniform. I didn't know you had the option to NOT wear decorations. In full dress uniform where you wear the actual medals he would have been quite a sight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.237 (talk) 09:36, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I was in the military and even I don't know if you have the option to wear or not wear all your ribbons, although I've seen pictures of Eisenhower with just a few top medals. Anybody out there in Wikiland know the regulations?71.154.158.245 (talk) 03:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a source for it but I know we have the option to wear your top 3, top 9, top 12, or all your medals. 184.76.28.245 (talk) 08:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

What about Tiger Force?
Te article dosnt even mention it!--James Bond 07:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

He served with the Wolfhounds--not the Tiger Force. Nor did he serve in the Rangers, as often quoted. And according to his Official Service record (and people who knew him), he joined the Army at age 19, not 15.

He was a Ranger. The 27th Regiment (Wolfhounds) formed a Ranger Platoon and Hackworth was the Platoon leader. He went to a school of some sort were he was awarded the Ranger tab (by his Regimental commander?) but never went to Ranger School at Ft. Benning. This is what lead to the Ranger tab contrversey.


 * According to the Tiger Force wikipage, he started it as the Bn. commander of the 1st Battalion (Airborne), 327th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade (Separate), 101st Airborne Division. So while he may have been in the Wolfhounds, he was also connected to the Tiger Force in some way.  Maybe we can delete this entry?  Or change it to discuss exactly what his role in the Tiger force was, anyhow. Rhetth 18:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Prose copyedit
I think that this article might do with being toned down a little. All in all it's a good read but it is overly effusive. Describing him as "... Americas' finest patriot of his generation" is a bit too much for an encyclopedia article. Phrase things a little more neutrally, after all the man's achievements speak for themselves.

X damr talk 22:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
i removed the sentence: He was Americas' finest patriot of his generation. in the "interwar service" chapter. --80.63.213.182 22:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved from top of talk page
This article omits some less attractive details of Hack's past, presumably removed by his fans or wife. Particularly important: Hack had a brothel of "safe" women for his troops in vietnam. Controversial, but innovative and indicative of his realism. - (This unsigned comment left by 01:34, 19 June 2007)

Normally I would remove an unsourced comment like this. However, this information appears in the autobiographical book About Face. That being the case, I doubt the information is being suppressed. It's more likely that it's not controversial, since Hackworth made no effort to hide it. If you have a reliable source showing it's controversial, then bring it. Otherwise, please don't try to sensationalize the article. MoodyGroove 02:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Here is another unsourced comment. I interviewed Hack personally around 1981 for an Australian institute of technology's student newspaper. He told me that he had been on LBJ's staff, and heard him say of North Vietnam "Let's nuke the bastards. I don't want to be the first American president to lose a war", and that was when he became opposed to nuclear weapons. John Wilkins (talk) 09:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Was there a reason you didn't include that in the article? MoodyGroove (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove


 * Unsourced John Wilkins (talk) 13:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I meant, was there a reason you didn't include it the article you wrote for AIT (hence we would have a source)? Just curious. MoodyGroove (talk) 16:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

"Bird Colonel" ?
This is a minor detail, but here goes:

Under the Vietnam service paragraph, it states Hackworth was promoted to "Full Colonel (also known as Bird Colonel)" or some such...I see no reason for the "Bird Colonel" remark. There is Lieutenant Colonel and then Colonel. Sometimes the term "full bird colonel" is indeed used in casual talk just to differentiate between the two, but the Colonel rank is not "known as Bird Colonel"...In that paragraph, the rank distinction (his promotion) is clear without the slang. No need to mislead non-military readers on the terminology...Engr105th 03:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur, and I just changed the article accordingly. Harvard yarrd

"Col Kurtz" ?
Removed: "It's said that the role of Colonel Kurtz is a combination of three Vietnam War officers: Colonel Charles Beckwith, USA (Ret), Lt. General Harold Moore, USA (Ret)(See WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE, AND YOUNG), and Colonel David H. Hackworth, USA (Ret). Some have written that the role of Lt. Col. Kilgore in 'Apocalypse Now' was based upon David Hackworth; perhaps, but Hack was never an 'Air Cav' officer - he was all infantry."

No sourcing, begs the questions: 'It's said'- by whom? 'Some have written...' Who? Dubious claims given the fact that Apocalypse Now! was based on Joseph Conrad's novella Heart of Darkness from 1899, predating all 3 soldiers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.236.246 (talk) 04:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"Hackworth, through his Newsweek articles, questioned Boorda's wearing of potentially unauthorized V ( for valor) devices on his Navy Achievement Medal and Navy Commendation Medal, generating much controversy." Hackworth had not written in Newsweek on the subject of Admiral Boorda's medals prior to the scheduled interview. Hackworth had intended to surprise Boorda on this subject, having not disclosed the subject of the interview. On the day of the scheduled interview, Hackworth's office reported that he had missed his flight connection in Salt Lake City and would not make the interview. Instead the Newsweek bureau chief and defense correspondent were to replace him, and they disclosed the subject of the interview. This was reported to Admiral Boorda, who noted that he'd removed the combat distinguising devices from the ribbons about a year earlier. Then, he went home and committed suicide. Later that day, I received a call from former chief of naval operations, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, who insisted that, as commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, had presented the medal -- with Combat 'V' -- to Boorda during the Vietnam War. Hackworth did not write for Newsweek again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitch19 (talk • contribs) 21:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote Attribution
Hackworth is cited in this article as saying, ""Sweat in training saves blood on the battlefield."   I'm quite certain that quote originated with Erwin Rommel, who repeatedly states "Sweat saves blood" in his infantry manual which predates Hackworth.  It is a certainty that Hackworth was familiar with Rommel's doctrines.  96.24.50.135 (talk) 03:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for exapnsion
If no one objects I think it is worth noting in the article two things. Firstly he stated in About Face he faced indifference from Slam about writing the Vietnam Primer but eventually persuaded him. Also, after he appeared on Issues and Answers he essentially went on the lam hiding from army agents intent on finding him to prevent his scheduled discharge. This was done to allow the army time to investigate him (i.e. dig the dirt) for things such as a illeagal arms and drug trafficking. To gather eveidence his bank details were accessed without a warrant and phones were tapped in motels he stayed at. No warrants were ever obtained for these (had any i'm sure it would have come out by now and he would have been discredited). Westmoreland also took the time to make sure the letter all leaving officers (above a certain rank??) recieved signed by him was not given to hack. This info should be included as it gives info on the obsticals he faced in improving the war effort before he left and the behaviour he faced in speaking out.

if no objects I will add this info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.197.79.18 (talk) 06:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Secretary of the Navy Cleared Boorda
of wrongdoing. Why isn't this mentioned? Hackworth should burn in hell. 155.84.57.253 (talk) 19:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It should be mentioned. Essentially Boorda and Hakckworth were in the same position. They were both wearing medals that had been awarded but were not awarded properly. Both did not deserve to wear the medels but both were doing so unwittingly. The difference is that Hackworth was the hypocrite -- he attacked Boorda for something he himself turned out to be guilty of as well. The Hatchet job on Boorda was the result of the brass being angry at Boordas strong actions after tailhook. Boorda was trying to clean up a mess created by others and was hung out to dry.15:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carvon (talk • contribs)


 * uh, a Ranger tab is not a medal. It's a little patch thing that goes on the shoulder.  Says "Ranger" on it.


 * Only the Secretary of the Navy, not Zumwalt, can authorize the medals Boorda wore. So this whole Zumwalt stepping forward thing lacks merit.  It also lacks sources.  When a service member pins on a medal, he or she does so with orders in hand.  Copies of these orders also go into the service member's personnel file - a file which gets reviewed each time the individual goes up for promotion.  Boorda did not have such orders, and he had numerous opportunities to find and correct his mistake.  Rklawton (talk) 22:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * yeah, because the Secretary of the Navy has nothing better to do. Zumwalt, as Boorda's CO, awarded the medal(s).  That being said, it sucks that he killed himself (we don't even know the actual motivation).

Atrocities
There is an editor who wishes to associate Hackworth with atrocities committed by Tiger Force. Since these atrocities occurred after he left the unit, we must be careful not to word these facts ambiguously. A prior version was written so ambiguously that an uninformed reader might think Hackworth could have been responsible. Rklawton (talk) 20:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

How Many Air Medals?
The Wiki article states that Col. Hackworth received either 33 or 34 Air Medals, yet on his tombstone engraved in white marble it says that he received 48 Air Medals. How many did he receive? Also, I was in the military during the Vietnam War and all colonels, whether Lt. Colonel or Colonel, are referred to as "Colonel" (except when written), so describing someone as a "full bird" colonel is necessary to clarify his actual rank. Only about 1% make full bird colonel, so it's an important distinction.**** Also, the American military in Vietnam was not a "conscript" army--only 25% were draftees! Compare this to WWII, where 66% of the American military were draftees (reference: "Eyewitness Vietnam", Gilmore & Giangreco, Sterling Publishing, New York, 2006, pg. 10). 63.207.238.250 (talk) 02:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)Sgt. Rock
 * The regs, as I learned them back in the '80s, did not require soldiers to wear their medals (except perhaps the MoH). The regs only specified HOW to wear them.  However, this would not stop local commanders from requiring a soldier to wear his or her medals.  However, that bit of info and $5 would buy you a cup of coffee. What we need are reliable secondary sources.  That is, even if we found a regulation, we'd need a reliable source to interpret it for us.  Rklawton (talk) 04:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

"Roy Clayton Meadows"?
Roy Clayton Meadows is mentioned as joining the Merchant Marines as a child towards the end of WWII, but it is not specified that this was DH's alias that he used to get in, or just a random insertion in the article.

I think that this should be clarified if known. Normfromga (talk) 20:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's just routine vandalism - easily undone. Rklawton (talk) 00:48, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Clean-up
This article is in need of a serious clean-up, with its NPOV statements, poor grammar, bad sentence structure. (E.g., "most patriotic American".) Jkp1187 16:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Even in its attempt to lionize Hackworth, the text screws up. Hackworth himself would likely have disputed that he was "all infantry". (a) he was an airmobile commander in Vietnam, therefore possibly a model for Kilgore in the mind's eye of the scriptwriter, and (b) he was an airborne commander, not straight-leg infantry. Correction! Hack was a Major in Battalion command with the 101st Airborne Divisions, Republic Of South Vietnam 1965/66 Lt Col in Battalion command in the 9th "Infantry" Division, Republic of South Vietnam. 1969

None of his positions regarding the first Iraq war, in which in Newsweek he gaudily predicted 10,000 American dead, is even touched upon.--Buckboard 19:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buckboard (talk • contribs). (cute addition, especially since I signed the comment using the time stamp button)

This article continues to need significant cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Aside from its POV statements, it suffers from the repeated use of jargon-ish, chatty "military" language where more appropriate terms would be more appropriate. For example, why is GEN Marshall referred to as "'SLAM' Marshall" rather than simply "GEN Marshall"? The article is not about GEN Marshall, so why is his nickname relevant? Some of the statements simply make little sense, e.g. stating that COL Hackworth took over a unit "made up largely of conscripts" and "transformed it into the counterinsurgent "Hardcore" Battalion (Recondo)". Considering that the U.S. Army in Vietnam was a draftee army, the original description as "conscripts" doesn't differentiate COL Hackworth's unit from any other in the Army. And putting together a new name from some tough-guy buzzwords like "counterinsurgent Hardcore Battalion (Recondo)" doesn't provide any evidence of increased military effectiveness. It's not even clear whose name this is -- the Army's, COL Hackworth's, or the author's.198.151.13.8 (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Just less than 25% of the 2,594,000 American military personnel who served within South Vietnam's borders were draftees. The U.S. Army in Vietnam was not a draftee army, it was a volunteer army (by comparison 66% of WWII American military personnel were draftees).  I assume the unit "made up largely of conscripts" was just that.  Some 3,403,100 Americans served in the Southeast Asia theater of operations overall.  71.154.158.245 (talk) 03:21, 4 August 2010 (UTC)Sgt. Rock


 * Previous comment by Sgt. Rock is nonsense. Many who joined the US military during the Viet Nam era did so to deal with their draft issues.  The US Army in the Viet Nam era was most certainly a draftee army and it drifted to a state of semi-mutiny as the war progressed. Seki1949 (talk) 09:18, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So the 75% who volunteered did so to avoid being drafted? --In other words, they joined the war to avoid the war?  Hmm, I'll have to think about that.  And the U.S. Army was on the verge of mutiny?  Sounds like you've been hanging out with too many pot-smoking hippy peaceniks.  Where does this mythology of the Vietnam War come from?  --Oh, that's right, Hollywood movies.  Google "Vietnam War Myths" to get some straight data.  66.122.185.95 (talk) 10:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't use Oliver Stone as a historical source. Please review the following Time magazine article from 1971: ARMED FORCES: Disorder in the Ranks Monday, Aug. 09, 1971 "Drugs, insubordination, racial animosities and fragging are all a part of the disintegrating discipline in the U.S. Army in Viet Nam. But exactly how bad is the situation in the ranks? According to an Army study, there may well exist such a profound crisis of discipline that the Army's ability to function is in doubt. So says an unusually revealing Army memorandum surveying military discipline in the entire Pacific Command that is currently being circulated down to the battalion level."

Seki1949 (talk) 07:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Whorehouse?
The bit about Hackworth running a brothel is perhaps sensationalized. At Cam Ranh Bay, for instance, the village on the peninsula was walled off (first with barbed wire, then with a welded steel wall) but girls were allowed to hang around outside the walls throughout the day to be picked up by GI's. It was an arrangement the brass thought best fit the peculiar situation. So Hackworth was probably just following Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). 66.122.185.95 (talk) 10:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

"Newsweek fired Hackworth"
I am going to remove this phrase until someone who has knowledge of this incident can clarify a few things:

1.) Was it firing for cause or a layoff(i.e., simple failure to renew a contract.)

2.) If firing for cause, reason for the dismissal. Was it due to misconduct (or allegations thereof) in his investigation of the Navy officer mentioned?  Or were there other issues?

2.) Sources for the above.

promotion dates
It would be nice if anyone could provide promotion dates. I have seen it claimed that he was the youngest O3 and the youngest O6; promotion dates would seem appropriate to help evaluation such claims.

Korea chronology
Doesn't he describe his battlefield commission as occurring before the Wolfhound Raiders were formed? Harvard yarrd


 * I revised & extended the relevant section of article. Harvard yarrd