Talk:David Miscavige

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2023
Change David Miscavige’s title from “Cleric” to “Cult Leader” 2607:FEA8:86A1:EE00:C96C:4D:4AFE:2E16 (talk) 23:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting question.svg Question: The word 'cleric' appears nowhere in the article, and the page is already listed under Category:Cult leaders. What do you want changed? Tollens (talk) 23:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Height of David Miscavige
Height is irrelevant information to include in the infobox. This is not normal. Boomer tomb (talk) 03:11, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The height was removed at 21:26 UTC on December 27, 2023. Boomer tomb (talk) 01:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Weirdness about the archives of this page
Why is archive 4 from 2014 to 2021, and archive 5 from 2017 to 2018? They shouldn't overlap. They should be in chronological order. Boomer tomb (talk) 03:13, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Looking at the edit history, a user manually created Archive 5 on 21:33, 23 August 2018 but didn't update the archive page counter from 4 to 5, so newer bot-archived threads have been going into #4. I moved the archive-5 threads into archive-4 in their correct order, blanked archive-5 and requested it be speedy-deleted. Further archives should now get added to the end of archive-4.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  11:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Titles
I just crossed-checked the references for "Captain of the Sea Org":


 * Amy Scobee's book does not say this at all.
 * Janet Reitman's book makes the statement but does not reference anything.

"C.O.B." (from Westbrook's book) is the only one that we can really be sure of. I'd prefer to prioritize academic sources such as Westbrook's book; these types of sources fit better with Wikipedia's NPOV and RS guidelines.

Since we can't agree on what Miscavige's currently used titles actually are, I'd suggest writing about this in a section below after sufficient research is done, but not in the introductory paragraph since it's contested. We're not even sure about whether the sources are backed by sufficient research.

Per MOS:LEAD, we are supposed to provide an accessible overview of the topic. If we have doubts about WP:V or WP:POV, then that shouldn't go in the lead section.

As a result, I've decided to put just "C.O.B." in the lead section for now. Please make discussions in the talk page, and I'm sure we can work together to improve this article.

Thanks for your work on Scientology articles by the way. I'm not opposing your edits per se, but am simply suggesting that we should collaborate in talk pages rather than making unexplained edits and reverts without discussing the reasons behind them. DjembeDrums (talk) 00:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Scobee's book absolutely says that! Below I have listed out even more sources that cover "DM", "COB" and "Captain"—with their quotes, and some screenshots for offline sources. Note that Reitman, Tobin, and Wright are journalists, not former Scientologists. Scobee and Rinder worked closely with Miscavige. As to your comment about Reitman ("makes the statement but does not reference anything"), she indeed describes her research for "Chapter 7. DM" starting on page 393 where she extensively lists the interviews and written sources she drew from. The handles "DM" and "COB", and the title of Captain are not controversial or contentious. And because the statement "He is also referred to within the Scientology organization as "DM," "COB" and "Captain of the Sea Org"" is not contentious, there is no reason to expect or require a different standard of reliable source than Wikipedia guidelines recommend. All of the changes were easily verifiable and should not have been reverted. And since you got the first 3 things wrong (Scobee, Reitman, and Westbrook), I am restoring the earlier version.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  05:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

DM
You might not find reference to "DM" in "scholarly sources" because they tend to be more formal. Based on what I read, "DM" is how he was referred to within Scientology, and is no different than calling L. Ron Hubbard "LRH". It is common in Scientology to use initials for things. Speaking of formal writing, you don't find "DM" in Rinder's book, but he uses it liberally in his online blog (one example).


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Captain
This is obviously a rank. In many organizations, including the US Navy, a person may be referred to as captain if he is in charge of a ship even if he has not actually attained the rank of captain. (See and lead paragraph of Captain (United States O-6).) Hubbard patterned his Sea Org after the US Navy. Compare this photo of CAPTAIN Miscavige to US Naval Captain insignia.


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COB
Note that it is "COB" and not ever C.O.B.! Even Westbrook 2019 pg141 uses "COB" as a handle for the man (not just a post title). "COB" (pronounced see-oh-bee) is how the man is referred to; it is not simply a position title, like calling someone "boss" or "super"; there's an element of their position, but it refers to the person themself.


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▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)