Talk:David Newhan/Archive 1

Comments
I'm trying to update the categories at the bottom of the page; I can't believe that there isn't a category for "Jewish Athletes".
 * There isn't one for Jewish athletes as a whole, but there is a Category:Jewish baseball players. I've added him to that.  (It's a subcategory of Category:Jewish Americans.)  Thanks for your contributions! --Idont Havaname 04:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a category for Jewish sportspeople --Epeefleche 22:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity
This rationale was taken from the Scott Schoeneweis talk page...

''What is so importaint about him and his mother being Jewish? TVRJomar 03:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)''


 * No idea. There seems to be this huge desire to point out that he's Jewish, then I see someone wanting to hammer home that his mother is Jewish. No idea what this is about. --Deathphoenix ʕ 03:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think mentioning Shoeneweis' Jewish background is interesting, but the current format of presenting it is awkward and borderline offensive. It would be one thing if we were clarifying why he can speak Hebrew but to just mention it out of the blue seems a little odd. Furthermore, there are no citations of any sort to back up the claim that his mother is Jewish. SERSeanCrane 22:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In addition I see that User:Threeafterthree has previously removed the content with the reasoning "reverted back to standard biographical usaged...please see WP:MOSBIO, thanks". I agree with this reasoning, but only in favor of moving his ethnicity to the opening paragraph where it belongs. Also, I am removing the trivia point until it can be backed up with a citation. SERSeanCrane 22:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the deletion of the trivia point, under the circumstances. --Epeefleche 22:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Given the current edit war, please state your thoughts on the matter before altering the article in its current form.

SERSeanCrane 22:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

To Clarify
Just to clarify, here is the excerpt from WP:MOSBIO...

The opening paragraph should give:
 * 1) Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles))
 * 2) Dates of birth and death, if known (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death)
 * 3) Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)
 * 4) What they did
 * 5) Why they are significant.

For example:
 * Cleopatra VII Philopator (December 70 BC/January 69 BC – c. August 12, 30 BC) was a queen of ancient Egypt. She was the last member of the Macedonian Ptolemaic dynasty to rule Egypt…
 * Francesco Petrarca or Petrarch (1304 – 1374) was an Italian scholar, poet, and humanist, who is credited with having given the Renaissance its name and inventing the concept of the Dark Ages…

SERSeanCrane 22:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. This is a good question. Things to be considered, IMHO, are 1) Wiki policy; 2) the distiction between Judaism and other religions; and 3) citations of people as being famous Jewish athletes, as in a Jewish Hall of Fame, or on a list of Jewish home run hitters with the most home runs, or in a book of Jewish Sports Legends.

Some thoughts --

1. Wikipedia Manual of Style. The Wikipedia Manual of Style is our guide. It states, in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), as follows:  "The opening paragraph should give .... Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.  Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)"

2. Nationality. The first question, then, is whether the Jews are a nation. If so, that information belongs in the opening paragraph.

The Wikipedia entry for "Jew" indicates, inter alia, that Jews are "members of the Jewish people (also known as the Jewish nation ...)."

Thus, one can maintain that in the (abnormal) case of Jews, who consist of a nation that has been dispersed from its homeland (largely), inclusion of the fact that a person is Jewish in the bio's opening paragraph is called for by Wiki MOS policy.

With other religions, often the religion is distinct from the nation. In other words, there was not a Protestant, or Buddhist, or Christian, or Hindu, or Aethiest nation per se. They are not a "people" and a "nation." Jews, oddly, are not just a religion. They are also a nation. Dispersed (largely) for a couple of thousand years.

3. Ethnicity. If one were to not consider the Jews a nation, despite the above Wiki definition, the question as to whether one should include that information in the opening paragraph of a person's bio could be answered by the the MOS reference to ethnicity. "Ethnicity", under the Wikipedia definition, includes among its subsets people who have a shared nationality (not the focus of the above exception, obviously) and those who share a religion. But, with Jews, much more than a shared religion is at issue, as the Jews also share a homeland and are a nation.

Thus, one would seem to find oneself pushed back to consider Jews in the "nationality" category, which calls for inclusion of a person's Jewishness in the openining paragraph of the bio.

4. Notability Exception. Even with ethnicity, Wiki policy calls for its mention in the opening if it is relevant to the subjects's "notability." To determine what notability means here, one must go to Wikipedia:Notability (people), the notability criteria guideline for Wikipedia.

That guideline states, inter alia, that "Notability on Wikipedia for people is based on the following criterion: The person has been a primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person.   This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries ...."

Thus, where one is noted as being a Jew in multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, and the like, they would appear to meet the notability requirement, and thus should have that fact included in the opening paragraph of their bio.

(Query as well whether one might argue that where a person is included in an ethnicity list on Wiki, as under "Black Jews," their ethnicity is notable.)

5. Mention Later in the Bio. Even if: a) for some reason Jews were not viewed as a nation, and b) the fact that a person was Jewish were not notable (i.e., they were not in books of Jewish Sports Legends, or Jewish Halls of Fame, or did not otherwise have their Jewishness noted), that would only be reason to suggest under Wiki policy the fact that they are a Jew should not be mentioned, generally, in the opening paragraph.

There is no suggestion at all that it should not be mentioned further down in the article.

Mad Jack, who has given much though to this subject, believes that ethnicity, if properly sourced, should and usually is mentioned at some point in their article. Musicpvm seems to agree. Others, such as Tom, argue that in some bios ethnicity is added in an awkward manner.

--Epeefleche 00:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as notability goes, I can only speak for the New York Mets market. When Shawn Green came to the Mets, him being Jewish was a big deal. Given how warmly such news was received I think it would be a poor idea not to mention his nationality (or ethnicity, if you prefer) in the lead of all NY Mets that are Jewish.
 * See this editorial in the New York Times for more: NYTimes.com
 * SERSeanCrane 03:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --Epeefleche 08:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Ross
Might be a good idea to start an article on David's father. SERSeanCrane 16:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal by SERSeanCrane of "unencylopedic information"
Please point me to the Wiki policy that says that "unencylopedic information" must be removed, and that describes the standards by which the removed information qualifies as such. Thanks. --Epeefleche 01:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"scrappiness"
Would anyone object to me removing the description "scrappiness" from the opening paragraph? I feel like it doesn't really explain much, and is kind of meaningless. -- Amazins490 (talk) 04:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You might google the possible sources first. This appears to be one ... --Epeefleche 05:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, you might wikpedia search scrappy and baseball. This is one interesting article that turns up ... .  Looks as though perceived scrappiness in a ballplayer may well be notable.--Epeefleche 05:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)