Talk:David Ortiz/Archive 1

CITE SOURCES
these are all opinions and nothing is cited, some sections are unneeded  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.168.147 (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Nickname
During the Sox/Cubs game today the announcers mentioned something about Ortiz once going by a different name, I believe. Any info on this? Thepedestrian-the big papi 20:02, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

MVP
Deleted * Papi beat Alex Rodriguez for MVP in the 2005 season with 48 home runs and 148 RBIs. Because it is not yet true. Brazos 05:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

RESOLVE DISPUTE
I am relatively new to Wikipedia. I have absolutely no idea how you negotiate or resolve a dispute with someone. Therefore, I am using this area to try. It is obvious, NoGuru (like the name), that whomever continues to delete my information is a Red Sox fan. I am also a Red Sox fan. A lot of major suspensions are listed on Wikipedia. When David Ortiz threw his bats at an umpire, he showed his character. Although I am a huge Papi fan, he shouldnt be called the face of baseball because of an incident like this and his selfish comments while we were being beaten in the division this year. Is there any way we can work this out.? Kruse56 03:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)Kruse56

Removed gushing conclusion
I've removed this paragraph from the end of the article:


 * As Red Sox outfielder, Gabe Kapler said, "What David Ortiz has done for this team has been miraculous." David Ortiz is arguably the best clutch hitter in baseball today. Numerous times, he has pulled the Red Sox out of tight places with his tape-measure home runs. David is an amiable, lovable player who brings pop to both the batting order and clubhouse. He has been described by his teammates as a "big, lovable teddy bear." Big Papi, as he is called by the Fenway Faithful and Red Sox Nation, will be remembered forever not only in statistics and game summaries. He will be remembered in stories that Red Sox fans will pass on from generation to generation for years and years to come. Grandparents today may talk of Ted Williams or Carl Yastrzemski, but this generation will talk of the heroics of David Ortiz. Who's your Papi?

...because it is fan-gushing and opinion. Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball; the readers can decide for themselves whether Ortiz's name will be forever remembered among the greats, etc. —Cleared as filed. 21:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with the removal, but there is no question David Ortiz will be remembered as one of the greats, especially here in Boston. GreatGatsby 17:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed Opinion Masquerading as Fact
I've removed this sentence from the end of the first section:

"If he ever played first base more than once a week, he would have probably won it." There is no way to prove that David Ortiz would have won the MVP had he played in the field more often. I am sorry but that is opinion not fact. 17:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)Jeff

User:70.66.244.236
Keeps removing cited material. David Ortiz's criticisms might be one of the most cited wikis out there. Stop deleting everything!

Im going to delete and modify this section and I will show you why:

Your justifications are weak and baseless, again you are only justifying this by comparing it to other wikis that could easily be wrong also. I will take a look at A-Rods also to see if it is the same way. But responding to my reasons with "other wiki's have it to" does not justify reverting back this whole section, because if they are wrong that would therefore make this one incorrect also. You have taken at least 4 of your quotes completely out of context, and most of your other criticisms are purely conjecture. Because you have some sort of personal grudge against Ortiz should not warrant this entire section. Unless you can find specific media outlets that level CONCRETE criticisms against Ortiz please do not revert this section, and please note that if you do, without responding properply to my allegations, please be aware an administrator will be notified to remedy this problem. Thank You. --Sopranosmob781 14:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

-Your first two citations which refer to Boston Globe articles do not reference anything negative or criticisms leveled at David Ortiz, in fact they both show overwhelmingly positive attributes to Ortiz, so I have no idea why you quoted them, they are pointless - He argues about strike calls, but so do alot of players, possibly the classiest player in baseball does all the time, Derek Jeter. Again no one criticizes him for doing this, except maybe a few umpires, but that really does not count. Than you picked out one isolated incident than failed to mention a quote located at that end that said his suspension was shortened "Ortiz's previously clean record in terms of on-field behavior could help him receive a more lenient penalty. "

I looked around at many other pages about ball players who had been suspended and these suspensions weren't mentioned in their "Facts" area. I fail to see why Ortiz' single suspension needs to be added. Kester Teague 17:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

-4+5 arent even criticisms they are personal opinions that you have against Ortiz. There are not any media outlets here that hold a negative opinion on Ortiz, which is exactly what a criticims is. Than on #6 you complete pull a quote out of context, he does not mention A-Rod at all, or even reference him. What Ortiz is referring to is that MVP's do not win because of their glove, they win because they can hit. He was just justifying that his hits should merit his winning of the MVP, it had nothing to do with ARod. -Your point on Ortiz and the Hispanic steroid connection is valid and well constructed, but again this is not criticisms, he himself is not being criticized here. So what I would like to do is edit this title and entitle it "View on Steroid ERA"

I am adding it back and going to show you why I am justified. If this continues, we are going to need arbitration.

'''IVE ALREADY STARTED the process towards arbritration. ONE MORE TIME, HE THREW BATS in the direction of umpires. ONLY TWO RECENT people have done such things. ALSO, I can see your point on the quotes although when famous people make CONTROVERSIAL statements, they are newsworthy. I can agree to leave the quote off if you allow the bats. I have not looked at most Yankee sites, but i am sure if i look at Alex Rodriguez', it will mention his bush league slap play. I do not dislike David Ortiz at all. I am personally from Boston but my family lives in New York. My two favorite players are Jason Giambi and David Ortiz. I just want things to be accurate.'''

"-Your first two citations which refer to Boston Globe articles do not reference anything negative or criticisms leveled at David Ortiz, in fact they both show overwhelmingly positive attributes to Ortiz, so I have no idea why you quoted them, they are pointless"

These are cited as evidence that the media is very positive about Ortiz and does not criticize him. They have grounds to, as the Wiki shows.

"- He argues about strike calls, but so do alot of players, possibly the classiest player in baseball does all the time, Derek Jeter. Again no one criticizes him for doing this, except maybe a few umpires, but that really does not count. Than you picked out one isolated incident than failed to mention a quote located at that end that said his suspension was shortened "Ortiz's previously clean record in terms of on-field behavior could help him receive a more lenient penalty. "" Most players don't throw bats on the field. Paul O'Neill (an all-time ball strikes arguer) never did that. It is grounds for criticisms.

The criticisms do not need to be perfect. A Rod has about 6 paragrapohs of shakey baseless criticisms. These criticisms are heavily cited. It does not make Ortiz a bad guy...they are merel;y criticisms.

--"4+5 arent even criticisms they are personal opinions that you have against Ortiz. There are not any media outlets here that hold a negative opinion on Ortiz, which is exactly what a criticims is. Than on #6 you complete pull a quote out of context, he does not mention A-Rod at all, or even reference him. What Ortiz is referring to is that MVP's do not win because of their glove, they win because they can hit. He was just justifying that his hits should merit his winning of the MVP, it had nothing to do with ARod." He was referring to A-Rod's defense does not compensate for his lack of hitting. Thus, I added the word "subtly" to Ortiz's remark. Not all criticisms are media related.

-"--Your point on Ortiz and the Hispanic steroid connection is valid and well constructed, but again this is not criticisms, he himself is not being criticized here. So what I would like to do is edit this title and entitle it "View on Steroid ERA"" Yet it was deleted and edited several times. Beltran and Guillemn were not responding to Jose Valentin's opinion. Neither was the MLB. They all responded to Ortiz and it shows a dispute where Ortiz weighed in on the unpopular side.

Unless you can show that the criticisms are not criticisms at all, I am adding them back. I have no uill will against Ortiz, but I do think people should be able to see that there is another side to the man. Furthermore, if Alex Rodriguiez has 6 paragraphs of rambling criticisms, then Ortiz can have a few heavily cited and not overly negative criticisms.

Lastly, calling Josh Towers stupid in an indirect fashion is another ground for criticism.

where his son's name came from
While it is true that Ortiz has done commercials for D'Angelo's Sub Shop, I remember hearing that his son D'Angelo's name is what it is because David wanted the D from David, and the Angelo is the male form of his mother's name Angela, as D'Angelo is his first child born after his mother's death, I'll leave it as it is for now, but I think that is more likely where his son's name came from

-Papi's kid's name did not come from the sub shop, I think you are right. Though someone keeps posting it. --Sopranosmob781 20:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure where the name D'Angelo did come from, but unless someone can cite something as proof of the sub shop theory, it should be removed, seeing as it is archly improbable. Since I have no proof either way, though, I'll leave it. Grand Slam 7 21:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

name change
the article title should be "Big Papi" not David Ortiz. Patbaseball2221 20:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I can hardly decide if you're joking... either way, Big Papi already redirects here, and David Ortiz is his legal name. -Lanoitarus (talk) .:. 07:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

wrong wrong wrong
During the press conference after losing one of the first three ALCS games to the Yankees, Boston ace Pedro Martinez made the peculiar comment, "Hey, I have to give credit to the Yankees and call them my daddy." Which caused the New York fans to taunt the Red Sox the next night with chants of "Who's your DAD-ee?!" Immediately after Ortiz's walk-off home run in Game 4, Boston fans turned this around and spontaneously began taunting the Yankees as they walked off the field with "Who's your PAPP-ee?!"

Factually bogus. Removed. Somebody who knows the correct dates (Pedro made the daddy comment during the regular season) and exactly what Martínez said should re-add. After making the necessary changes, of course. Maw 06:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The "Yankees are my daddy" was not during the post season, it was during the regular season in September during a crucial series against the bombers. The taunting began during game 2, which if you remember was played in NY, there was no way it was his second start during the series which was game 5 in Boston. --Sopranosmob781 16:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Citations added.
I added some citations for his 2003 Caribbean Series MVP Award and the citations for his walk off statistics and his latest walk off shot. -- NaturalDisaster 07:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Added new story.
I added the recent story of Ortiz being admitted to a MGH(Mass General Hospital) last weekend, along with the citation for it and some comments made by Big Papi himself. Here's to his health. - NaturalDisaster 05:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Vote
There is an edit war going on with this article and the users need to come to a consensus on the topic. Until a consensus is reached, these items should be left out of the Facts section. Since the items are different from eachother in nature, you should vote on each on. Stoneice02 20:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * My opinion overall: The reasoning I keep receiving for this protection of these facts are that they show Ortiz' "character". If this is the case, why are they in the "Facts" section? You can not disagree with a fact, but I definitely disagree with the person who wrote these two quote's opinion of his character.


 * My opinion overall: Looking at the two additions in dispute, I think that the quote by Ortiz saying he should be MVP or whatever it was has no business being here.  It doesnt appear to contribute anything to Ortiz'z overrall profile and it would set a precedent that everyone would be running to put up every single quote that anybody of significance said.  The second addition, about Ortiz'z suspension, I think does belong but it should be put during the 2004 season timeline.  The suspension does have merit and the way it was presented does not in any way appear to be biased.  I looked at the citation and the quote was derived almost word for word from the espn.com article about the game in which the incident resulting in the suspension occurred.152.163.101.7 16:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The more I look at this idea, the more I like it. I would be willing to forgoe arbirtration for this result. Stoneice02 13:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Suspension
"Ortiz was suspended for five games, later reduced to three games upon appeal, because of an incident on July 16, 2004, in a game versus the Anaheim Angels. In that game, Ortiz was ejected for arguing balls and strikes and proceeded to throw some of his bats in the direction of umpires Bill Hohn and Mark Carlson. "


 * I am putting this up here because I do not want you to miss it accidentally. The 2nd FACT has no purpose in the article and has terrible citation.  The citation is of a fansite's perspective.  Who is he to say what Mr. Steinbrenner or anybody for that matter like Mr. Henry wanted to do. 68.34.155.243 21:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * DELETE - Players are suspended all the time in the MLB. We can not justify writing about every one of them. The article cited doesn't even mention the ejectioon till the 5th paragraph and doesn't mention him throwing the bats until the seventh paragraph. The article's description of the bat throwing is also more NPOV than the one used in the above quote. Obviously ESPN didn't find it noteworthy-enough to open the article with it, and this article was written immediately after the game in which is happened. Now, more than two years later we're saying it's noteworthy enough for an encyclopedia article about him? I very much disagree with that reasoning. Stoneice02 20:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Dozens of similar incidents occur like this every year in MLB. I think it would be a notable event if he had been arrested like Frank Francisco or Kenny Rogers. As it is, this was another non-notable suspension. No Guru 20:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * DELETE - The above writers said it all. Players are suspended daily.  There's no need, other than an agenda, to include Ortiz' suspension.  I also removed the item from the facts section, as is instructed above, until a consensus is reached. Kester Teague 20:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * KEEP - I remember the time in which the said event occurred. The media was all over this and it was front page material on every Boston newspaper.  BrandoNoel 04:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC) Note - First contribution by this editor -- No Guru 05:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * However, this isn't the Boston version of Wikipedia. You speak of the same Boston newspapers that will write a front page story on Ortiz being caught picking his nose. Stoneice02 05:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep - I think that because it was David Ortiz, it is very significant. If it was a no-name player, then it would not be news.  On the contrary, most things that happen with any significance during the career of Ortiz are attention-grabbing.  But, I think that it should be worded differently and should be posted under the 2004 section. 204.193.127.4 16:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There is NOT ONE reason not to keep - As the son of Kruse56, it is my right to make a point. After that game, the event was publicized on the radio and every major sports television outlet for at least a week, like which occurs with a suspension to every major sports athlete, making it beneficial to this article.   THE BEST OF ALL:  I just looked at Julian Tavarez and Carl Everett’s Wikipedia’s………..Their suspensions are listed on their and plenty of people bump into umpires and plenty of brawls take place whereas not many throw bats.  Also, the suspension of Russ Springer of 4 games is mentioned on his Wikipedia for throwing at Barry Bonds.  YOUR RESPONSE:  Either “That’s because he drilled Bonds” or “We should delete that too.“  Taking the first response:  The suspension should be listed for Papi b/c it is Papi.  Taking the second response: Then you are being biased just to protect Papi (NPOV).  WHO ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!!? My whole family knows RSN like a book.  FWIW, we used to live with you people and vowed that we would remain true to our teams but always remain unbiased.  Pertaining to the deletion of the line:  “only player in history to have 2 walkoffs in the playoffs in the same day,” I did that and am unsure why it was changed as it may be true, but because it is not common knowledge, it needs some kind of citation, and the ESPN article says that it happens in a 24 hour span and makes no mention of the first player in history to do it twice in the same day.  Therefore, if my father’s crap isn’t up there, neither should that crap. Bostonsupremacy 21:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Suspension in current form  - The suspension is not all that newsworthy, in my opinion. He threw some bats on the field, got it.  Are we going to put a note about every Cubs player who mauled their Gatorade machine this year?  With that said, I don't see any harm in keeping it there.  It may be debatable if people find it relevant enough for an encyclopedia, but it sounds like at least some people find it important enough to keep a small sentence about it.  With that said the above description seems more biased than the one in the current text (Ortiz was also suspended for 5 games (later reduced to 3 games due to an appeal) after being ejected following an incident on July 16 in a game against the Angels in which he threw several bats onto the field that came close to hitting umpires Bill Hohn and Mark Carlson).  I say keep it as it is currently.Benjamid (talk) 00:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW, pertaining to the comment about "boston newspapers & picking nose".....c'mon now, im not calling anyone stupid, but that comment is absolutely brainless. I seem to remember in Joe Torre's Wikipedia it mentioning the New York Daily News report of Joe Torre about to get fired.  Boston newspapers have a great reputation compared to NY papers.  The NY Daily News is the same paper that reported Mike Fratello as the next manager of the Knicks a while back and also reported Darryl Strawberry as dead while back.  And we see how it turned out with Torre. Bostonsupremacy 22:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, this discussion is turning way too personal. Calling a comment "absolutely brainless" is uncalled for. I never once compared NY media with Boston media, but if your impression is that the Boston media is kind to the Red Sox, you have not listened to WEEI. Before this get any more personal, especially any more personal attacks, let's hear from the arbitrator. Stoneice02 00:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. I would appreciate that. However, I wonder who the arbitrator would be as an arbitrator is required to be fair and unbiased. I apologize for making it sound personal. Youre not stupid and youre a good guy for protecting Papi. I respect that. But I respect neutrality more. Remember, I tried just working this out with you to begin with. BTW, i didnt say the Boston media is not hard on their players. They are more picky but better at their jobs than the ridiculous NY media. Ive heard WEEI.....LOL.....they are TOUGH. I just have to ask you one thing. ESPN has a responsibility to report about the game first and then the incident. That is why it was in whatever paragraph. When he was suspended, though, it certainly had an article all to itself. Do you agree? In whatever game in the 2000 WS against the mets, do you think that ESPN wrote about the bat throwing by Clemens (which I'd like to go check and see if its on his Wiki)in the first few paragraphs? Probably not. Bostonsupremacy 03:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

FINALLY, there shouldnt be a consensus. Because it is FACT, the burden should be to remove it, not to put it on. Do you not want accurate information on there. Bernie Williams got ejected for the first time in his career this year. I bet that's on his website.
 * I DONT understand. Look at A.J. Pierzynski's profile.  Jason Giambi and Papi are my two favorite players.  Should I go through Giambi's wikipedia and delete about the steroid controversy.  He never openly admitted to steroids.  He apologized but never said what he was apologizing for.  Alex Rodriguez committed a bush league play in 2004 and although I have not looked, I can guarantee that is on his profile though he was not suspended for it.  Two people in recent history have thrown bats at umpires. Delmon Young who probably has a profile with it on there and Papi.  They both were suspended.  Why should they both not be up there.

'''It is not about winning and losing. It is about newsworthiness and fairness. i am going to take it to arbitration if i can because you have found a bunch of Red Sox apologists, not fans, to agree with you. The whole idea of a consensus is based on a large number of people, not three or 10. The consensus is once again not fair b/c the majority of people that are going to comment on a David Ortiz site/discussion are Sox fans. I guess because they are my friends/coworkers, their opinions will not be valued the same as Sox apologists on a Big Papi site. WHAT NEUTRALITY!!!! LOL All I wanted to do was add another perspective to one of the most storied athletes in history. Although this, Im not going to beat myself up over this. Far be it for fairness to come into the picture with a bunch of Red Sox apologists. I HOPE that someday my NPOV will be the poster child for RSN. ONE more point…Stoneice02.…you said Wikipedia cannot include every interview. You are right. Wikipedia only includes key interviews. I finally looked at Alex’s site. Maybe the Jason Giambi quote about fuckin dinkers should be deleted off of his site. 68.34.155.243 19:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC) ''' IF you cant be fair and balanced, then this will head to arbritration, as it seems that two of you, not NoGuru, have no intent to change your mind, SOLELY because of your bias. I am a fan of both players and both teams. I am in a position to be unbiased. Kruse56 21:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you feel this needs to go to arbritration already, then by all means, do so. However, we just put this out for the contributors to weigh in. If they come to a consensus, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, there is no need to go to arbritration. For example, if the consensus is to leave both parts, then I will accept it and not go to arbritration because the people have spoken. I suggest you hold off and see where this takes us. Stoneice02 04:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

MVP Quotes
"On September 11, 2006, ESPN reported David Ortiz, the American League leader in home runs and RBI, says Boston's fall from the American League playoff race should not disqualify him from the race for the AL MVP. In the process, he stated his reason as being Derek Jeter of the New York Yankees had the benefit of hitting in a better lineup. "


 * DELETE - First of all, the ESPN article is more about him saying that his offensive numbers should be enough for him to be voted MVP. Although the above quote is copied verbatim from the first sentence of the article cited, the article doesn't mention this topic until the ninth paragraph. Players give interviews everyday of the year. Most of the time, they talk about themselves and their production. Should we also include a quote where Ortiz says he had a good year and can't wait for next year? It is already mentioned in the article that there was a hot race for MVP in a couple years and talks about the DH vs. Position Player argument. If anything, this quote should be incorporated into that section. Stoneice02 20:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have no opinion about this one either way but do think that it should be moved out of the fact section and placed into the body of the article. -- No Guru 20:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I see your point Stone, but in my opinion, you cannot continue to exclude every FACT i come up with just b/c they show something negative about his character. I would agree to leave this one off if you agreed for the other ALTHOUGH when FAMOUS PEOPLE make controversial statements in the media, it is 100 % on their WIKIPEDIA just like when people throw bats at umpires (TWICE) they are shown on wikipedia. Kruse56 21:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - This quote is barely newsworthy, people say things all the time that the media picks up. I would find it hard to believe that Britannica would put that quote in their encyclopedia.  I could care less if it's a good or bad quote, it's just plain not an important quote.  Benjamid (talk) 00:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I THINK it would be fair to allow me one of them. BUT, IVE already started the process towards arbritation, because as a fan of both teams, I know that there are more Sox fans than there are NYY fans. People outside of NY hate them and love the Sox b/c they are the underdog and everybody loves the underdog. I DONT SEE ON THE WIKIPEDIA DISPUTE RESOLUTION where it says anything about having a consensus. It says to try and come to an agreement and if not arbritration. I never agreed to a consensus b/c I know the previously stated.Kruse56 21:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You are looking at this as a case of someone winning and someone losing. That's not the purpose. The purpose is to decide what is best for the article. Stoneice02 04:20, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Quotes
Like many other famous folks, I think it is strongly recommended that we include some quotes from David Ortiz because it will give those that are not familiar with him or baseball an inside look at him. This will then give more relevance to this article. Besides, my postings earlier did not fall short of Wiki requirements for editions to an article.

As much as I find some of Ortiz's quotes hilarious (I especially like one he said after hitting a home run a couple years back, about it feeling especially good because he was a guy who "doesn't go deep that often."), he's not known for his quotes. I mean, this is David Ortiz, not Winston Churchill. I'd have to say nay to a quotes section. Benjamid (talk) 00:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Records
This guy holds so many records both for Boston, etc...someone with the time should consider adding a table of his records. Honestly, this page needs some cleaning up, not the most professional looking page. Iamvery 19:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Edgar Martinez Award
Ortiz has now (as of December 2006) collected his fourth straight Edgar Martinez Outstanding Designated Hitter Award Casey Rousseau 02:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed derogatory remarks
Someone edited the page and scattered some obscene remarks in the first couple of paragraphs in the article. Gone now, though. Schilfan 10:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

i reverted to removed some racist additions, do we need a lockdown?!?Childhoodtrauma 18:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

vandalism
several people regularly check this page just to revert vandalistic edits including racisim, invalid criticisms, and people just saying "hi". isn't it seriously about time to consider some sort of lockdown? most of the reverts i've done are from unregistered isp addy's and there are pages all over wiki with some sort of lockdown that suffered significantly fewer issues....Childhoodtrauma 20:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll agree with this. How do we go about getting a lockdown? Buster 20:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. There has been an upswing in vandalism. I will semi-protect it for a week or so. Hopefully this will help. Just so you know you can request protection for pages at Requests for page protection -- No Guru 21:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)