Talk:David Petraeus/POV issues on talk page

( This topic has been moved to its own subpage. It is a current topic and is being moved due to its great length. ) -- Joe Friday (talk) 03:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC) Comment to JoeFriday: Please stop POV pushing on this page, or elsewhere. From the contexts used, the phrases and terms "another leftist disinformation front", activist (several times), "anti-war activists", and "fringe theories" (and comments about Gareth Porter) appear to be politically motivated attempts to impugne the integrity and reliability of the sources mentioned in order to skew the discussion toward your own POV. We all have points-of-view (politics being one of the more contentious) but we are all required by the Wikipedia non-negotiable values (including WP:NPOV) to abstain from a POV while working here, including on the talk pages. If you continue pushing your POV, you may be reported and potentially blocked from editing. — Becksguy 02:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Becksguy, this is an RFC for this article itself. If you have a personal disagreement with JoeFriday's past edits, then please post a seperate RFC. Revolutionaryluddite 03:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing that out. I fixed it by creating a separate section. I don't wish to start a RfC as I don't think the issue has risen to that level, however, I felt it needed to be mentioned as it stood out to fresh eyes. As to the personal disagreement: It's neither personal nor a disagreement with JoeFriday. I simply observed what I believe to be POV issues and commented on them as an otherwise uninvolved editor.  Reliable sources are those with a structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight, but where a source is positioned on the political spectrum is not one of the criteria. A source from the left or right can be a reliable source, or not, depending. But to use semantically loaded terms for a source has a tendency to create assumptions in the readers mind that may have nothing to do with it's reliability. I understand that it can be hard to lay aside one's POV when editing here, especially in contentious subjects/articles, but we all have to do our best to observe NPOV. And sometimes an independent observation can be helpful in doing that. Thank you.  — Becksguy 17:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * However, it is appropriate to note that some comments have veered away from the topic at hand into a more general expression of POV. --Marvin Diode 14:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Becksguy, JoeFriday's comments seem- to me, at least- to be pointing out that the Press Service has a extremely strong ideological bias, a history of sensationalism, and a history of factual issues. Revolutionaryluddite 20:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC) (I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with him or anything like that- just I think this is what he is saying.)
 * Would you consider, in the same vein as this debate, or  or  to be reilable sources for the Barbara Boxer or Harry Reid articles? Revolutionaryluddite 20:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Alas, it is true we all have a POV. A quote using foul and demeaning language should be required to have multiple sources when it is about a living person or the object of the insult is politically controversial and the single source has a track record of partisan reporting. Put the shoe on the other foot. For example, if just as a leading expert was testifying in front of Congress to the danger of Global Warming, WorldNetDaily was the only media outlet to claim that the expert's boss called him an expletive-crackpot and cited only unnamed sources and the boss wouldn't confirm it, then we all would demand a second source. At least, we should.--JoeFriday 01:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * To BecksGuy, I am not intending to push a POV. Obviously, mine leaked out while I was expressing frustration in an effort to get others to stop pushing what I see as a POV. I agree that the phrase "another leftist disinformation front" was over the top. Is "activist" impugning someone's character? By implication one would be saying that activism is bad. Has an organization which describes its activities as political action or has a political action committee embraced the term? My objection is to activism which purports to be non-partisan, independent, or neutral when it is not. MoveOn refers to itself as non-partisan. Is the phrase "fringe theories" impugning the integrity of sources? The phrase comes straight from WP:REDFLAG. Admittedly, it warns against the theories rather than using their proponents as reliable sources in another context. Is the epithet "fringe theory" really deserved? I wouldn't put in a regular article because I wouldn't want to do the research to source it. Is the term "antiwar" unfair? The ABC article cited in the caption to the picture of the MoveOn ad refers to MoveOn as an "antiwar group." Is ABC a reliable source? Regarding the author of the article which I believe needs a corroborating source, he says the following, "I believe the antiwar movement and the movement against militarism in this country is the saving remnant of American society. It is what stands between the political elite of this country and the utter ruination, the utter degradation of what is left of decent values in this country as far as its role in the world is concerned." (YouTube) Am I wrong to perceive that statement as evidence of the source's unreliability? That's not my decision. This is after all a talk page. Unlike other editors who have stated their intention to edit the article without consensus, I will reserve my remarks on this point to the talk page. I leave it up to others to decide.--JoeFriday 03:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * To JoeFriday. Thank you for a thoughtful and long response. I'm sorry I came on a bit strong in my initial comment, and yes, it was the phrase about the disinformation front, among other things, that prompted me. Separate from the issue of source reliability, I was concerned that the characterization added an emotional layer that made it even harder to maintain a NPOV mode of discussion. Although I know the Washington Post well, I don't know the reputation of IPS or it's editorial policies/structures, so I can't comment on it's reliability. You have a point about "activists", although I saw it as code for anti-war or left-wing activists, and felt that it was also not neutrally descriptive. However, any one that fights for what they believe in, rather than just sitting on the couch watching TV, is an activist in a sense, regardless of where they are politically. It looked like "fringe theory" was being applied to the chickenshit remark by Adm. Fallon, and that seemed to be an grossly overreaching stretch of the meaning. Describing MoveOn as "anti-war" is incomplete, as that is only one, and a more recent, part of it's operations. But more importantly, I don't see how being anti-war makes a source automatically unreliable. If anti-war sources are unreliable due to being partisan,  then so are pro-war sources, and due to the heavy polarization in our society, that might not leave many usable sources.  Anyway, I think the air has been cleared somewhat. Some of the comments you made deserve further thought in later responses.  And this whole issue of source reliability needs to be discussed in much more depth that we can in one article talk page.  I agree with your point that one should not edit a contentious article without discussion first.  —  Becksguy 22:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I regret that I did not make clear that what I referred to as a "fringe theory" was the assertion that the Vietnam war resulted from the U.S. having too much power. To describe MoveOn as "anti-war" may well be incomplete. They are clearly active on a broad front of issues. Are they also "anti-war"? ABC thinks so, and it is footnoted. If you doubt Wikipedia's description of the controversy surrounding the reliability of the author in question, then try that of Romanticizing the Khmer Revolution an excerpt from a Berkeley Political Science Honors Thesis by Sophal Ear.--JoeFriday 23:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, sorry I misread it. Now I understand the fringe theory reference and thank you for clearing that up. Also, I wasn't denying that MoveOn.org is an anti-war group, I just wanted to clarify that it isn't a single issue group, since they started out doing, and still do, liberal issues advocacy and education, and grassroots political lobbying as a PAC, among other things.  And I will check out your citations. This has become a helpful discussion, and it remained civil, which in contentious subjects is harder to maintain. (BTW, I added bullets for readability.) Thank you. — Becksguy 01:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Where there's smoke, there's fire. Becksguy appears to be someone you want up in that lookout tower. Just look at how much verbiage there is on this page from only two users.  It is like a smokescreen obscuring the commentary. Dlabtot 02:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please remain civil. Revolutionaryluddite 02:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please explain why you are mentioning the page on civility. Do you object to something I said? What do you object to, and why? Thanks in advance. Dlabtot 02:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Pejoratively labeling another user's comments "verbiage" and "a smokescreen" is not civil. Revolutionaryluddite 02:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The word verbiage is not pejorative; it's about as neutral as a term can get. I do stand by my opinion that it is difficult to get a sense of the RfC consensus because of excessive and repetitive commentary from a couple of editors. I certainly do not mean to inflame passions or hurt feelings by saying so, but simply to work towards a better discussion.  Dlabtot 03:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to assume bad faith on your part. And there's no point in starting a meta-arguement over what the definition of 'civilty' is. Revolutionaryluddite 03:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I just think that this whole 'POV issues on talk page' section has gotten off topic. Revolutionaryluddite 03:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a separate section, and the subject was the talk page per se, not the article. But I can see your point, Dlabtot, why don't you move the entire RfC section to the bottom of the page, bypassing all three sections currently below it? — Becksguy 03:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know that that'll help; and I'm not too comfortable moving stuff around on talk pages. I'd really like to just sit back and see how the RfC turns out. Dlabtot 03:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)