Talk:David Petraeus/RfC: Should Petraeus' highly public rift with his commanding officer be include in the article?

( This topic has been moved to its own subpage. It is a current topic and is being moved due to its great length. ) -- Joe Friday (talk) 03:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Should published criticism of General Patraeus by his commanding officer, Admiral William J. Fallon be included in the article? It seems to me that his commanding officer's viewpoint is certainly a 'significant point of view'. Dlabtot 02:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, it's a tough call. The Iraq War troop surge of 2007 article might be a better place for Fallon's professional criticism of Petraeus' military strategy.  That is really what that's all about.  However, Fallon's assertion that Petraeus is more interested in his own interests than a sound military position could be included here without my objection.  Still, it might be better to let this play out for a bit, before we try to document.  I would like to see Fallon's criticism more heavily sourced than I have supplied if included. Bbrown8370 04:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If it's true that very reliable source say that Fallon has criticized Petraeus, the answer is "Include-- yes, yes, a thousand times yes."  That said, I echo Bbrown's desire to the wait a tad before inclusion, to let mainstream media have a bit of time to chew on in, and sourt out for us whether the claims about Fallon's criticisms are true.   --Alecmconroy  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alecmconroy (talk • contribs) 18:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As long as the criticism can be reliably sourced, it should be included. I haven't checked what sources are reporting the claim, but IIRC, the ones I've seen so far seem reliable. Ngchen 01:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I know a couple of people already agreed to this in the NPOV section, and I'm just sticking this here to determine whether there's anyone else who might disagree: If we include Fallon's policy criticism from March, we should also include Fallon's more recent comments about how he's "very happy" with Petraeus' policy. TBSchemer 06:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * When did he say that he's "very happy"? Revolutionaryluddite 02:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I see from that Petraeus says Fallon "fully supports" him. This must be included if the previous Fallon statements are included. Revolutionaryluddite 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Here via RFC: I think Bbrown and Alec have it pretty much entirely correct.Orphic 12:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Late to the party... someone above said it was "highly-public"; what has the coverage in the mainstream media been of the criticism. Have newspapers/tv outlets/radio run stories on it? Links? Mahalo. --Ali&#39;i 14:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Here you go: The Washington Post story, Inter Pres Service story -- Dlabtot 15:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Since Fallon is criticizing the Iraq War troop surge of 2007 per se and not the General himself, I think that his comments belong on that page. However, Alecmconroy, Orphic, Bbrown8370 have a very good point about waiting to see how this plays out. Revolutionaryluddite 02:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * After looking at Talk:David_Petraeus, I strongly disagree that "published criticism" should be added if the criticisms will be nothing more than personal insults. Criticisms of something just connected to him- i.e. against the Bush Administration- should not be on the page either. Criticisms listed on this page must be criticisms of Petraeus personally based on his beliefs, conduct, and actions. Revolutionaryluddite 02:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The surge is the main reason Petraeus has a significant article in Wiki. Any criticism of Petraeus related to the surge (especially from his commanding officer), ie some of Fallon's comments, probably do have a place here if they turn out to be accurate and true and Petraeus' moment of fame remains primarily because of Iraq counter-insurgency (the surge).  But it's up to you guys.  Bbrown8370 08:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The Washington Post article doesn't quote criticism from Fallon of Petraeus, though, it just mentions that a "schism" and "bad relations" between them existed in the past and has now since changed. Fallon just criticised part of the surge strategy (and the President). The article is the only reliable source I've seen so far that reports on the 'rift', and it doesn't really have specific criticism of Petraeus. Revolutionaryluddite 16:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * umm it seems like maybe you didn't actually read read the referenced news articles or something. Fallon isn't criticizing Petraeus for having halitosis or because he doesn't like his hairstyle. His criticizing him as an officer.   Dlabtot 07:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously, I've read the articles. I've looked through the one reliable source cited, the Washington Post, and I don't see any quotes by Fallon that crtiticise Petraeus. The article reports that a 'schism' existed in the past and that it does not now-- that's all. Revolutionaryluddite 16:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, what the Washington Post story reports is that behind the public face of unity, a schism exists between Patraeus and Fallon. Further, the very fact that we are having this disagreement shows that there is more than one point of view; rather than deciding which is the correct point of view, the article should present the facts in a NPOV manner and leave it to the reader to make that judgement. Dlabtot 20:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You seem to be saying that there are two interpretations of the article: first, that the article means exactly what it says and the two officers had a strong personal disagreement that is now resolved (or is being resolved); second, that there is some kind of a blood feud between them that is kept under wraps by a Bush Administration conspiracy. Occam's razor clearly implies here. We have the right to have our opinions, but not to have our own facts. The fact is that the article does not have a specific quote by Fallon criticising Petraeus. The article has criticism by Fallon of certain parts of the surge and of President Bush as well as statements by Fallon supporting Petraeus. That's it. Revolutionaryluddite 01:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please limit your responses to describing your own point of view. I never said nor implied anything remotely like the viewpoint you ascribed to me. Your characterizations of my comments are inaccurate and unwelcome. Dlabtot 22:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Fallon isn't just another officer. He's important enough in Petraeus's story that his favorable and unfavorable comments should be included. That includes comments that Wikipedia editors think are insufficiently substantive. We aren't to decide whether criticisms are "based on his beliefs, conducts, and actions", or based on some other factors we consider proper, or based on some factors we consider inappropriate. The issue for us is significance. A blogger who writes a cogent critique of the failings of Petraeus's training program doesn't get quoted. A general closely associated with Petraeus who dishes a personal insult does get quoted. JamesMLane t c 05:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

JamesMLane t c 05:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The Fallon quote is
 * an exceptional claim,
 * a surprising or apparently important claim that is not widely known,
 * a report of a statement by someone that seems embarrassing and controversial,
 * in material about a living person, and
 * not supported by multiple sources.--JoeFriday 11:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * JamesMLane, if Fallon's earlier comments are significant, then why aren't his later comments (in which Fallon is "very happy" and "fully supports" Petraeus)? Revolutionaryluddite 15:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Here for the RFC: I think that Bbrown8370 has it right -- Petraeus' notability comes mainly from his role as the chosen military spokesman for the White House on Iraq policy. It is widely acknowledged that his Report was ghostwritten by the White House. The fact that other military leaders, specifically Fallon, are less than pleased by this should certainly be included. And finally, I would disagree with Joe Friday's assertions that Fallon's views are "surprising" and "not widely known." --Marvin Diode 20:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It is widely acknowledged that his Report was ghostwritten by the White House. This is a very strong accusation. You're saying that Petraeus explicitly lied to Congress and the American people. Fallon, are less than pleased by this The Fallon-Petraeus "schism" is not related to this, as the Washington Post article explains; Fallon did not accuse Petraeus of lying in his Report. Revolutionaryluddite 01:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Revolutionaryluddite, as far as the two apparently contradictory comments from Fallon, WP:NPOV is clear and explicit: "When reputable sources contradict one another, the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: describe the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources, and give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner." - in this case that would be the Washington Post. Dlabtot 20:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not a case of two or more reliable sources contradicting each other. This is a case in which one reliable source reports a consistent story-- Fallon and Petraeus had a strong disagreement which is now resolved (or being resolved). Revolutionaryluddite 01:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

In reply to Marvin Diode, I don't mean that Fallon's critical attitude or personal animosity to Petraeus are "surprising" and "not widely known." I think that the the Wash. Post and IPS articles taken together refute that. My point is "——that the 'ass kissing ... chickenshit' quote is 'surprising' and 'not widely known!!!!!'——" While Fallon's critical attitude or personal animosity to Petraeus are supported by multiple sources and are not exceptional, the "ass kissing ... chickenshit" quote is not supported by multiple sources and is exceptional. To comply with WP guidelines on this point is to make an assertion about the Fallon-Petraeus attitude or relationship that is fully supported by the Wash. Post article as the IPS article would then necessarily be a multiple source for that. The Wash. Post article is not a multiple source for the "chickenshit" quote.--JoeFriday 23:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

An additional concern I have is the competing meanings of chickenshit. It is military slang for stupid and petty ridiculous bureaucratic regulatory nonsense. In common parlance, it means cowardly. See Urban Dictionary and Free Dictionary. For this reason the quote is especially harmful as it is functionally libel. Even if said with the military connotation, it will be read by most with the more common and more derogatory connotation. Interestingly, its use therefore conforms to a standard practice of antiwar activists of accusing policy makers refusing to surrender of being cowardly.--JoeFriday 18:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "a standard practice of antiwar activists of accusing policy makers refusing to surrender of being cowardly"? Should I assume that this is your personal take on the matter? What is of some actual relevance to the article is the pattern of military leaders who have either resigned in protest, or been fired for differing with administration policy, and more significantly, former officers who have criticized the Bush administration using surprisingly strong language -- Lawrence Wilkerson comes to mind. In light of this, I don't find Fallon's language to be especially surprising. It is also not libellous. It falls under the category of "criticism." The use of the term "chickenhawk," for example, is typically found among military veterans, who are referring to ostentatiously bellicose individuals who avoided military service themeselves. --Marvin Diode 01:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Whether or not the President has been denounced using strong language is irrelevant. Fallon's statement in the Press Service is surprising, given that the Washington Post reports that Fallon supports Petraeus, and has not supported by other sources as JoeFriday has noted. Revolutionaryluddite 20:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Civilian anti-war activists have used the term 'chickenhawk' to apply to other civilians as well as pro-surge veterans. But this is beside the point. Revolutionaryluddite 20:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

outside opinion from — BQZip01 — talk
I came into this from the RfC page.

I think that the comments seem to be more of a professional assessment of a subordinate within the confines of the military structure. While he said it, I don't think it is very notable. I know of many officers who say things like this and forget them the next day. Additionally, it doesn't appear that Admiral Fallon continues to hold that opinion. Disagreements, even vehement disagreements, are very common when it comes to policy discussions at every level of command in the military. I don't think those should be taken out of context.

I concur that The Fallon quote is an exceptional claim, a surprising or apparently important claim that is not widely known, a report of a statement by someone that seems embarrassing and controversial, in material about a living person, and, most importantly, not supported by multiple sources. If it can be backed up, it should be and then it can be included, but not necessarily should be included, but given the inflammatory nature of these comments and WP:BIO policy/guidelines, this should certainly be balanced with Fallon's comments later that he is "very happy" and "fully supports" Petraeus. — BQZip01 — talk 15:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * (Shameless self-promotion to follow). If anyone else would like, there is a discussion on the Talk: Fightin' Texas Aggie Band page and your opinions on this RfC would be appreciated. — BQZip01 —  talk 15:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, despite the assertion of one of the editors on this page, the RfC question is not whether that particular quote should be included, but whether the rift between Petraeus and Fallon, reported on by both the Washington Post and the Inter Press Service, should be included in the article.  Dlabtot 19:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The RFC and NPOV questions are not the only questions. Include the rift without the quote, and there is no controversy. Include the quote, and you violate WP:BLP. Either way, any reference to the rift will likely be met with the inclusion of evidence of its resolution. No matter how reasonably you phrase your RFC or your NPOV, you cannot treat their resolution as justifying including the quote. There is no way that quote with that source alone does not violate WP:BLP. Accept reporting the rift without the quote, and I no longer have a dispute. Include the IPS article along with the Washington Post article as a reference for the rift, and I have no dispute. Include the quote, and I will continue to report that you are in flagrant violation of WP:BLP. If the WP:BLP question is resolved in your favor, I will withdraw from the debate. Until and unless it is, include it, and you knowingly, willfully, and by now repeatedly violate WP:BLP.-- Joe Friday  (talk) 03:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding the "chickenshit" quote, I never thought it "surprising," and at this juncture, I don't think there can be any validity to the claim that it is "not widely known." See this search of Google News. --Marvin Diode 14:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Do any cite original sources other than IPS or unnamed? An awful lot of them look like blogs. Several appear to be from Huffington Post. It would be more accurate to say that the IPS story has been widely quoted mostly by partisan outlets with a desire for it to be true.-- Joe Friday (talk) 21:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Unless my oount is off, I only see 5 people brought into the discussion by way of the RfC, and I sure don't see any consensus yet. Dlabtot 21:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)