Talk:Dawson College shooting/Archive 1

Too much attention?
This is getting too much attention. Only two people were killed? Why is there even an article on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.117.72.239 (talk • contribs) 02:16, 14 September 2006

Exactly same! Such a common incident and it has been figured in the wikinews at top. Such incidents are so common in developing world.I suggest it to be removed.Shashankgupta 09:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So what if this happends on a daily basis in developping countries ? Does that mean that the one time it happends in Canada in 10 years it should not be news ? Just because there is much more crime in developping countries does not negate the extreme impact this has had on the citizens of Canada. Just because developping countries have more crime does not mean they should hog all the news. Other countries exist you know ;) Goodchild999


 * Those are carless comments, this is the 6th school shootout in Canada, and the first since 1989, and Canada isn't developing it's one of the most developed in the world. Sum1else 10:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So you are saying that developed countries are more important than developing countries? BMW Z3 12:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I am stating that what Shashankgupta said about Canada being a devoloping country is false. And cases like this in the Devoloping world aren't common though are rarley recognized. Sum1else 12:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think the statement was meant to suggest that Canada was a developing country. I believe Shashankgupta's point was that such deaths are common in the developing world, so it's unfair to only make a fuss about them when they happen in the developed world (e.g. Canada). --Saforrest 15:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh ok, I was going somewhere else. But obviously (I'm not saying that it's more important) a school shootout in the middle of Niger won't really be recognized more then a shoot out in Harvard or the University of Toronto. I'm not saying that they will be more important, they'll just be more recognized. Sum1else 20:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Forget about the fact that 19 other people were injured, and the chances of one or more people dying later is quite high, especially with the injuries.

The events that happened are on the verge of a terrorist attack scale; Not always is there mass death in a terrorist attack. While he may not have an allegiance to any terrorist groups, the fact that he open fired on numerous people who were innocent is a TERRORIST idealogy. We can talk about this all day, but the answer is the same... it could be taken as a terrorist attack, which deserves an article.Sod Aries 20:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It deserves an article not because of how many casualties or how often this type of incidents occur in Canada, but it's because how many other major news outlets outside of Canada are reporting it on their front pages. --Kvasir 00:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * the too much attention is put out in the news by canadians. canadians have the idea that they are perfect like angels and the world loves thems and cares about what goes on in canada.


 * Above comment should be deleted, since its incorrect, biased, and ignorant. Get off Wikipedia. Disinclination 03:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Talk page discussions are never deleted (except for vandalism). While that user may have a very ignorant comment to make, it is his right to make it. I am archiving now archiving this discussion to clean up this talk page. ♠ SG →Talk 08:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

A message...
I think I would like to leave a little small message here. After being at Dawson for a time, I feel it's like a second home. I was part of Dawson life, being part of the clubs, events to even down to student politics. I do also contribute information to the Dawson College main Wikipedia site. Though, I was planing to visit Dawson before I head to work around noon today, but I got late in my plans, but when I got home and ready to go there, I saw this news. I was shocked. I don't know if I felt lucky that I was running late as planned, but if I did, I would have been in the middle of it, as I always hang around the 2nd level. Though, all my friends, classmates and the peoples I know there for many years are safe, but it breaks the heart to see such events unfolds. (TuxedoInferno 22:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC))


 * I understand your need for grievance, but wikipedia isn't the proper place for it. Possible keep it in talk pages? Sod Aries 20:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

main page?
Is this notable enough to be on the main page? --Gregorof 18:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe. It's a school shooting and it's all over the news. 204.52.215.107 18:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The main page comes from wikinews so the story needs to be done on wikinews first and then you need disscuss on the main page about it first.And the story hasnt been created yet wikinews Samaster1991 18:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Shots_fired_at_Montreal_college --Qviri (talk) 18:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, lets get this on the main page people, this is harping similarities to the Columbine High School massacre. -- Reaper  X  19:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem is that we aren't Wikinews, and Wikipedia is also not a breaking news source. This should be on the main page of Wikinews, but I don't think it should be on the main page of Wikipedia, at least not for a little while. --Core des at talk! 19:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's the main story on some news sites (CNN, Google, Fox) but not most/all (BBC, MSNBC, Yahoo). --Interiot 19:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I put a request in. Administrators advise that it should be sat on until the article is expanded. The Wikinews is attracting alot of traffic and editors, so ive invited them to come expand the article on the discussion page. -- Reaper  X  19:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Where can I find the request? --Gregorof 19:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates. --Interiot 22:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

See In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates. -- Reaper  X  19:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Until we have a) some hard facts and b) a much higher quality article. I unfortunately don't ahve teh time to fix either parts. say1988 20:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Needed: categories
We need new catagories, Category:School shootings, and Category:Dawson College 132.205.45.148 18:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I definately agree we need a School Shootings category, but what could we have in the Dawson College Categeory? --Gregorof 18:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well for starters, Dawson College and this article. 132.205.45.148 18:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, I'll work on it. --Gregorof 19:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We don't need a School Shootings category, as Category:School massacres already exists, of which most are shootings. Bwithh 19:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks didnt see that. --Gregorof 19:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Would it be a msassacre if less than 5 people are killed? 132.205.45.148 19:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * School massacre defines it as "an incident of attempted mass murder involving at least one actual death that occurs at a school". So I suppose yes it is. --Gregorof 19:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I doubt a Dawson College category is necessary. We have two deeply interwined articles and don't seem to be about to get more. --Kizor 20:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree --Gregorof 20:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Kimveer Gill can be placed into the Dawson category as well 70.55.85.6 13:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Recommend copy this article to Wikinews
As this is currently far far better than the Wikinews article on the same incident. (I would suggest that the content/perspective of this article mostly belongs on Wikinews only, except that I don't think many people read Wikinews....) Bwithh 19:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree, this as an encyclopedic tone as for the Wikinews article, it was first-hand journalism in that it appeared after the shooting and is thus necessary as an archival record even if it is short. For the idea of transwikiing, then that is pure non-sense, it would be like moving the Polytechnique article to like Wikinews (if we could go back that far). Lincher 20:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There are parts of this article which are clearly non-encyclopedic in tone: e.g. Students have been encouraged to contact loved ones to assuage fears. Local media have reported that police have established phone numbers at which loved ones can gain more information are +1-(514)-280-2880, +1-(514)-280-2805, or +1-(514)-280-2806. The Montreal General Hospital has also set up a hotline, which can be reached at +1-(514)-843-2839. plus a couple of the photos. This wikipedia article feels like something like journalism. The wikinews article (like most wikinews articles) feels like a summary of mainstream news reports. And I suggested COPYING the article to Wikinews, not Transwiking. Bwithh 20:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * At the very least, copy the contact info to the Wikinews article. --Core des at talk! 21:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Haircut
Um randomly why is the shooter's haircut being described as 'retarded'? I mean, it may well have been but that's not the NPOViest way of putting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.18.35 (talk • contribs)
 * I think I saw that in an eyewitness quote somewhere. --Kizor 23:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was an eyewitness description. -- Reaper  X  23:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Regardless, I dont see it as being a neccesary inclusion --Gregorof 00:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

incorrect info
i'm watching the breaking news right now, it says that the surete du quebec reports that they believe that there was only one gunman, and that they shot and killed him. also the injury reports are: 11 injured, (8 critical, (4 in er, 3 stable)). the gunman began shooting in the cafeteria. gunman wearing black french shirt.65.94.244.233 21:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Working on it. Can someone improve the image layout, while we're at it? I'm hopeless with images. --Kizor 21:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * (this is updated info live from CBC) note that i mispelt, its trenchcoat not french coat. atleast 20 taken to hospital, 11 to montreal general hospital, 6 critical, 3 people operated on, 3 people waiting for surgery.. he started shooting outside, nearby alexis neon plaza, then moved on into the cafeteria of dawson. all witnesses say they saw only one gunmen, same description. police cant confirm that there were more than one gunman, but its still a possibility. shooting started at 1pm. gunman with black boots and machinegun and rifle. 2 police officers already on scene when gunmen made first shot, telling him to drop gun. cellphone lines overloaded. roads + some metro stations barricaded, large perimeter. alexis neon plaza, dawson evacuated. 12:44 police came on scene saw someone shooting on wall of dawson.65.94.244.233 22:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a correction of spelling, "Alexis Nihon". 66.130.236.213 01:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

a LOT OF THE INFORMATION ON THE NEWS IS CONTRADICTORY. oops, caps lock. anyway, i was watching CTV and they said both that there was one gunman and that there were three alternately for the past hour or two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.122.207 (talk • contribs)
 * Not all witnesses all said there was only one. Many people said there were multiple gunman, which restarted the stampeding around. Disinclination 03:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

temporary redirect from Montreal article
hi, i've been working on the montreal article recently, and live here. have added a temporary redirect to this page. thanks everyone for putting it up and refining the breaking story. two of my friends teach there, and it's a bad day when you spend part of it trying to find out whether your friends have been shot (they weren't). -- Denstat 23:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That isn't necessary. The Montreal article has nothing to do with the shooting at Dawson College. ♠ SG →Talk 23:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * no, but people who hear about a shooting at a montreal college are going to google and hit the wiki montreal page, and have to search for mention of post-secondary institutions in a very long article. that's the reality of google combined with the relevance of wikipedia. as i said, it's temporary, and if i have to spell it out, a compassionate gesture. it will be changed back as the timeliness fades. -- Denstat 02:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * First, that's not a redirect, that's a hatnote. Second, I don't see the relevance, really, as anyone hearing about this on the news easily heard the "Dawson College" name as well. Third, I see it was removed after about 90 minutes, which is longer than I thought it would last ... --Dhartung | Talk 04:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * thanks for the head's up about the term hatnote, new to me -- already realized it was not a redirect. do you only listen to english news? when an international news story breaks, i always put myself in the position of someone who may hear it in another language, or reduced to much less information in other countries. dawson has a great number of international students with family elsewhere, so you might reconsider who you mean by "anyone". i take encouragement from section 5.5 in hatnote, and absolutely would never bother with wikipedia again during a similar emergency. peace, out. -- Denstat 04:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Shooter
"As of 4:30pm local time, a police spokesman has confirmed the involvment of one rocker, and that gunman was shot and killed by the police." in the shooter section... rocker what? --jess 01:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sneaky vandalism ;) It has been fixed. --Deenoe 01:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Just found out my buddy's brother was in the caf where the shooting happened at the time. His buddy got shot in the arm, and the girl in front of them got gunned down. The brother took his pal behind this pillar and tried to stop the bleeding, but when the cop shot the gunman dead, they had to walk past him to get out, and his face was all gone... fucking crazy bastards who do shit like this... Makes me think twice about all the times I've been with pals playing videogames and going all like "Lol, that guy got shotgunned in the face!" Fucking awful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.217.249 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 14 September 2006

Timeline
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html It is reported that the shooting began at 12:41, and police arrived at 12:44, which is contradictory to the lead. I know it is only a 5 minute window, nonetheless, this has to be adjusted. On that note, does anyone have an explanation for what happened between 12:45 and 1:15? As it has been reported, the shooting began at 12:41, police arrived at 12:44, and then there is 31 minutes of what? -- Jay  (Reply)  23:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * According to earlier reports, the shooting began at 12:45 and lasted for 30 minutes. Eventually, we'll have a much more clear timeline. Once the police starts releasing investigation information (ie. after they review the security tapes), the article will get a major overhaul. ♠ SG →Talk 23:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well.. as far as I know, the first 911 call was received around 12:45 and the Police response time was 3 minutes, and then immediatly entered Dawson. --Deenoe 01:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 31 minutes of sweeping the building to check for injured people or a second shooter. I was a former student there, and the place is quite big.

Live news feeds

 * CINW AM 940 News station Montreal ShockwaveFLASH streaming audio.
 * Info 690 News station Montreal ShockwaveFLASH streaming audio.

There's a weird smell in the air...
It smells the semi-protection soon if you ask me. I wish. --Deenoe 01:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, many anonymous users are adding good information to the article. The vandalism isn't too bad right now. ♠ SG →Talk 01:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, but definately worth considering if it elevates. --Gregorof 01:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My cousin was in Dawson College when this happend... If her life would of been taken, I would take personally care of this guy saying the gunman was armed with a big penis! Such an insults for the families... --Deenoe 01:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If users want to make useful contributions, they can create an account ;) --Deenoe 01:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A relief. To vandalize such a tragedy is disturbing.  Best to see it blocked for the time being. --Gregorof 01:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I was expecting the sprotection to last 1-2 hours, just to dissuade the vandals... nope, an admin removed the sprotect right away. --Deenoe 01:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That administrator was me. I don't think the vandalism is unmanagable at the moment. --HappyCamper 02:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Unmanagable.. no. Insulting for the families? Yes. --Deenoe 11:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Military time?
"The Dawson College shooting occured on 13 September 2006, from 12:45 to 13:15 EDT"


 * Why are we using military time here? NorthernThunder 02:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not military time, it's "Quebec time". 12h45 - 13h15 . 70.51.11.242 03:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Since when does Quebec "own" time? NorthernThunder 04:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Since when does the military own time? Quebec uses 24hr clock, like many French regions. 70.51.8.54 05:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not only that, most countries other than the United States use the 24-hour clock for most formal purposes &mdash; news items, bus and train schedules, movie times. Personal communications ("What time are you coming over?") use the 12-hour system. Note for those outside the U.S.: In the U.S., the 24-hour clock is known as "military time" because the military are virtually the only ones who use it, so it strikes most civilians as odd to see it anywhere else. Obviously, Wikipedia being an international project and the article being about a Canadian event, it's logical usage here. Lawikitejana 05:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I am Canadian and I use the 12-hour clock in my daily life. NorthernThunder 08:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Franco-Quebeckers use both a 24hr clock and a 12hr clock, as do English-Quebeckers. But officially, Quebec uses the 24hr version, and store hours are listed in 24hr format (0h00- 23h59). If you look at say, the Quebec sports channel "http://www.rds.ca", you'll see that the TV schedule (horaire) uses 24hr time. 70.55.85.6 13:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly, Francophones (Quebecois and Acadian), like many European countries, use 24-hr time, and many Anglo-Quebecois have adopted the convention as well. It's really only considered military time by the U.S. janis 13:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And besides, the 24h system is more logical. I don't want to see or hear about confusions with the 12th hour. If I see a single confusion, I'm not going to approve a system. I disgust the illogical systems of measurement used by most Anglophones. Love Quebec <3 although I feel sorry that they had this kind of asshole shooting people. Scandnavians and Beneluxians kick serious ass when it comes to stuff like subtitling, time, and the internets. I <3 me. -- nlitement [talk]  16:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, even the US doesn't consider it to be military time. This is a 24-hour clock; military time has no colon (two dots). ♠ SG →Talk 18:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting reports
In this article, it seems to say that the shooter killed himself, whereas the article states otherwise. Also, this states that 4 people were killed. What is the current information that is available? --HappyCamper 02:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We shall go with what police and hospital officials tell us. The only reports of speculation that should be used (if at all) are ones from the "main" news corporations, such as the CBC, BBC, etc. -- Reaper  X  02:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)