Talk:Daxinzhuang/GA1

GA Review
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Nominator: 21:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 18:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Reserving. Will try to review during the (long) weekend. —Kusma (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Content and prose review

 * Title: isn't it more properly the "Daxinzhuang site" (大辛庄遗址), near the village of Daxinzhuang? (There is also a Daxinzhuang in Hebei; that is what the deleted substub previously at this title was about).
 * The English sources seem to just refer to it as Daxinzhuang most of the time. The Chinese sources do usually say Daxinzhuang site, so I will change the Chinese infobox to that.
 * The lead section is lacking a mention of oracle bones and writing.
 * Fixed. - G
 * "dated to the Neolithic Yueshi and Longshan cultures" when is that?
 * same for "late Erligang"
 * Dates given for all three of these. _ G
 * What is "native" about the Yueshi culture? This is about the Erligang coming from Henan?
 * Cleared this up. -G
 * "Pottery [..] was gradually assimilated" what does that mean?
 * Cleared this up. - G
 * Archaeology: would it be good to mention that Drake only discovered Shang dynasty relics?
 * Good idea. -G
 * Can you gloss/give some context on Erligang culture and Anyang period? Same for Yueshi and Longshan. At least give approximate centuries.
 * Done. - G
 * Zou Heng: do you know the name in characters? (Helpful for disambiguation / research if there is no article).
 * Added. - G
 * Link oracle bone.
 * Done. - G
 * Site: The Zhongnan Mountains are in Shaanxi, so your link goes to the wrong page. According to the Shandong source, it is the 泰沂 mountain chain, zh:泰沂山脉, and looking at a map confirms it is not very far from Mount Tai.
 * Apparently the Xiezigou (characters would be nice: 蝎子沟) used to be a dried river channel.
 * Characters given. -G
 * History: Qianzhangda: characters would be nice ( gives me 前掌大).
 * Given! - G
 * Pretty sure the Xuehe River is zh:小魏河 (redirect from zh:薛河 Xuehe).
 * Linked. -G
 * Is it possible to give a little bit of context on the Erligang culture? At least explain how far we are from Zhengzhou and that the Yellow River was elsewhere back then? (on a modern map both Zhengzhou and Jinan are on the Yellow River).
 * Gloss Yuan Guangkuo (and ideally give characters).
 * Done. -G
 * "the settlement sat along a major trade to northern Shandong" probably a trade route?
 * Done. - G
 * "Daxinzhuang as the Erligang transitioned into the Late Shang" is this supposed to be a heading? It is not a sentence. Certainly explaining that the Erligang culture is a precursor to the Shang dynasty culture is very helpful.
 * That originally had "grew" in it, oops. -G
 * Consider adding a map similar to that at Shang_dynasty for improved context?
 * Done. -G
 * Link Yinxu.
 * Done. -G
 * Do we know Fang Hui's name in characters?
 * Added. - G

General comments and GA criteria
@Generalissima: done reviewing, waiting for your comments. —Kusma (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Prose is generally fine, with some small issues. Some comments mostly on missing context above. (Some of these review comments are certainly optional for the purpose of achieving the GA criteria, so feel free to push back against anything you do not want to do, and please do push back against everything where I am wrong).
 * No major MoS issues, lead slightly incomplete.
 * No issues with NPOV or stability.
 * Broadness: some more context would help (especially centuries), see above, but generally this covers what I expect to hear, with perhaps one exception: we learn very little about Yueshi and Longshan cultures and the use of the site during the Zhou and Han dynasties.
 * Focus: no issues.
 * Images: no copyright issues. The caption could be better; it seems this is actually a Longshan culture artifact?
 * It would be great to have more Erligang/Anyang era images as these eras are the main focus of the article.
 * Sadly, I could not find any that would have license to use. - G
 * Sources look mostly fine. Li 2008 is a thesis; could you comment on how it passes WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
 * Google Scholar gives 18 citations, which is pretty high for a PhD thesis; in general, I've found PhD theses to be quite reliable when they have been reviewed by a number of people with expertise in the subject — I'd argue more thoroughly vetted than articles even in more prestigious journals. - G
 * Wang, Campbell, Fang, Hou 2022 is not cited (should it be?)


 * @Generalissima: Excellent changes so far, looking good! Just waiting for the edits promised in your last edit summary now :) Actually, Li 2008 seems reasonably well cited so I do not think it is cause for concern. —Kusma (talk) 08:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Generalissima, is there any more to come or do you want me to take another look at the whole article now? —Kusma (talk) 12:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Apologies this has taken so long. It's ready for another look now. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I am happy now. I made one minor copyedit (Large number ... have -> Large numbers ... have), feel free to replace by a better copyedit. Also, I changed the characters for Zou Heng to the simplified 邹衡. zhwiki has a substub about them that is almost not worth linking to, so I won't ask you to do anything about that. —Kusma (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Source spot checks
Numbering as in Special:Permanentlink/1225568770. No concerns about OR/paraphrasing. —Kusma (talk) 10:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1a ok
 * 2: ok. Actually, according to the footnote, it is by Fang Hui方辉. The actual inscriptions from the oracle bones are cool. Sadly I couldn't figure out the copyright status of the images (or find the original article in "考古").
 * 3: ok, but why not mention Xu Ji as the expedition leader?
 * 8: looks fine (the maps in this source helped me greatly to understand the scope of the Erligang state)
 * 18/19 and friends: could only access snippets, but all looks plausible.

Outsider comments
Using the term Shang for any archaeological finds except those of the Late Shang (which is directly attested) brings in a whole raft of unwarranted assumptions (e.g. Campbell 2014 pp15–15, Liu & Chen pp256, 258). This is easily avoided by using archaeological terminology (upper and lower Erligang, etc) for archaeology. Kanguole 07:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I think there is a distinction to be made between which culture archaeological finds belong to and which era of Chinese history they correspond to. I personally am partial to "culture name+BCE century" as the most informative way but I could be wrong. —Kusma (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Before the Late Shang, we are dealing with prehistory. The traditional history goes back further, of course, but aligning it with archaeological finds is a problem. The archaeological terminology is more direct and precise. Kanguole 09:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)