Talk:Daydream (Mariah Carey album)/Archive 1

Singles marks
There is a mistake in the main column. It says the album featured three double platinum successes. "Always Be My Baby" is Platinum, not double Platinum. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.159.71.128 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 6 August 2005.

Underneath the Stars merge?
I think that "Underneath the Stars" and "Forever" need articles because it is on the greatest hits and a radio single. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Charmed36 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 5 February 2006.

"Underneath the Stars" needs an article because it was an actual single, peaking at #69 on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay chart. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.125.119.49 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 October 2006.

"Underneath the Stars" is a completely separate article dealing with a single, not an album. These two should not be merged. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 404FD (talk • contribs) 00:33, 27 October 2006.


 * The main reason why I tagged the Underneath the Stars article for merging into this one was because a) both articles were rather short  and b) the song isn't very notable outside the album. No, a song isn't automatically notable if it was released as a single, particularly if it was just a promotional radio-only single that received little airplay. That said, I think it might be a good idea to expand this main album article to a decent size so that the existence of a separate article on the single is justified. Extraordinary Machine 17:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe "Underneath the Stars" needs its own article. The promotional single that was released is considered rare and is a hot collector's item among this singer's "fans."  Even though that may not be a justification for an entire article, several things are: a music video was planned, concert performances of this song were recorded, remixes were commissioned and re-sung with different lyrics, promotional singles were released to radio, and the song did chart on Billboard. -- Musiclover 04:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Underneath the Stars" was released internationally and recieved chart positions. It should not be merged because it was a single and is on the greatest hits. Hotdate240 22:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sales figure
It says in the article that the album sold 49 million copies! That's ridiculous. And why isn't the album included on the list of best-selling albums worldwide? Someone keeps removing it (I'm guessing for lack of a good source). Puckeylut (talk) 21:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Daydream (Mariah Carey album)
I hoped that I and Sparks Fly can resolve our dispute over the Daydream (Mariah Carey album), but we're getting nowhere. That's why I decided to ask for third opinion. I'd like to ask which version is better and should stay.

Here is the list of things I don't agree with Sparks Fly: 1. Daydream did sell 25 million.(free thelondonpaper). 2. Music Box did sell 32 million albums. 3. Merry Christmas is not the most successful Christmas album. The given source does not explain what does it mean 'most successful' (Fox News Channel). Merry Christmas did not win any awards, did not peak the highest on the charts and did not sell the most. I'm putting a better source which says it is one of the best selling Christmas albums (Billboard). 4. Chart table. I have added many other certifications and all peak positions with official sources. 5. Track listening. I have made it in a format according to WP:ALBUMS. 6. Bad links, overlinked. I have fixed many links and reduced the overlinking. Our discussions are on each other talk pages: User talk:Max24 and User talk:Sparks Fly. Hope you can help. My final version is from 00:17, 13 May 2009 and his from 16:31, 12 May 2009. Max24 (talk) 00:11, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * On #1, there aren't any really reliable figures on worldwide album sales, since they aren't certified by anyone. The Tickets Specialist source is not reliable, it's just some boilerplate text that was probably lifted from an earlier version of the Mariah Wikipedia article.  The Londonpaper source isn't necessarily to be trusted either, its tone is too gossipy.  This book source says Daydream sold "close to 20 million around the globe", but it was written in 1998.  What is the correct figure as of 2009?  Don't know.  A better question is why are there so many edit wars over R&B/pop diva record sales and ticket sales marks?  Everybody loses their mind on these articles.  Wasted Time R (talk) 12:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding #2 and #3, these should be punted. This is an article about Daydream, not either of the other two albums.  There's no need to give exact sales figures or records set about either of them, leave that for their own articles.  Just say that both Music Box and Merry Christmas were commercially very successful and leave it at that.  Wasted Time R (talk) 11:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * On #4, the Max24 version is much better than the older Sparks Fly version. But the latest Sparks Fly edit keeps the Max24 table, so it looks like you are now in agreement here.  Wasted Time R (talk) 11:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * On #5, both of your formats are allowed by WP:ALBUMS, see the three examples at ALBUMS. I think the Sparks Fly template-based table is neater, so I would vote for that one.  Wasted Time R (talk) 11:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * On #6, I don't see a big difference between the top two versions. Work it out.  Wasted Time R (talk) 12:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thnak you for your opinion. I have changed the article according to your advices.


 * 1. I have changed the link for the book you provided, and stated that Daydream sold OVER 20 million (which can mean 22 or 25 million). Sony Music Japan released a press release in November 1999 which said 19 million for Daydream.
 * "Over 20 million" seems like a reasonable statement to me. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 2. and 3. I have removed the statements abot sales of Music Box and 'the most successful' Merry Christmas. Both stay as commercial success.
 * 4. My version of chart table stays.
 * 5. Sparks Fly version of track listening stays. I have just added Japanese bonus track.
 * 6. Maybe not big differences but still. For example I have changed Manuel Seal to Manuel Seal or David Morales to David Morales or Make It Happen to Make It Happen or Open Arms to Open Arms or other links or removed the non-existing article from the See also section. And they all were reverted by Sparks Fly. Max24 (talk) 13:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Getting the right disambiguated link is not a matter of debate, it's necessary to be correct. My guess is that these reversions were caught up in a general article reversion and that Sparks Fly is not claiming that Make It Happen is a better thing to link to than Make It Happen (song).  Wasted Time R (talk) 13:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

i would like to change the source for the sales,the source says 25 million instead of 20 milllion.(talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC).

Third Opinion
I have come here after a request for a third opinion on the project page. This dispute does not seem suitable for a dispute for a number of reasons: It seems there is work all the editors involved here can do, if there are still disputes after that, please repost at WP:3O in the correct manner. Good luck, Bigger digger (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As per WP:3O the dispute is not represented on the talk page but spread all over 3 talk pages. It needs to be discussed here. This not only makes our lives easier but also means the dispute is recorded in the most relevant place, the article's talk page.
 * User:Wasted Time R has made some useful comments which means there is no longer a dispute between 2 editors. User:Wasted Time R has made some very relevant points which the other two editors would do well to bear in mind as they seek consensus on a suitable article.

My points

 * I will ask to another experienced user to states if Undercover and London Paper are unreliable sources, since it is in this article monitored by User:Realist2 and he don't see any problem with this. Furthermore, there's no problem in stating the sales number of her previous albums in the background section, with respective reliable source. (You can check Thriller (album) which is one the best article in wikipedia).
 * Those are arguments for the Music Box (album) and Merry Christmas (Mariah Carey album) articles. This article is about Daydream, and what influenced Daydream was mostly Mariah and her desires for her musical direction and her relationship with Mottola.  In other words, the history of Daydream would be the same regardless of whether Merry Christmas was the top holiday album or the 10th most popular holiday album, and regardless whether Music Box sold 20 million or 25 million copies.  (Thriller is a bit different because there Jackson seems to have been obsessed with obtaining even more commercial success and recognition that he had until then.  That wasn't the case with Mariah.)  So this article should stay focused on what matters, and not get in edit wars over unrelated issues that have dodgy sources.  If you must quote prior sales figures, why not just use the U.S. amounts, which are certified and everyone agrees on?  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, the right dash used is the em dash (—) not the hyphen (-).
 * You are right, hyphens are being used where dashes are needed. Per WP:EMDASH, either unspaced emdashes or spaced endashes are needed.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fox News is a reliable source, so there's no problem with stating what they states. I don't know how they have it, but there's really no problem with putting this. Look, it may not won any award because a better non-holiday album did, it may not peaked in the highest position because another non-holiday album also blocked it to a better position.
 * Same response as above. Avoid difficult, unrelated issues.  Keep your eyes on the prize.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My table of chart position is not  much worse than the Max24 as said by User:Wasted Time R, my table is based in what the Max24's table works. Look at the ref25, which gives to us this, well, how can I know that Daydream sold 350,000 with this link?

I will point more, if I remember.  Sparks   Fly  16:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Closing
I'm tired of pointing things. Well, you guys did all this job because you think that you needed to improve this article, right? So, now the work is done, the article now can easily pass at a GA nomination (which was my view since I spent seven days working on this gracious page). I requested my last revision peer review, and I did not receive any criticism that I couldn't revert. But, now that two people worked on this, there's no problem to a sweet good article nomination, right?  Sparks   Fly  23:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Guys...?  Sparks   Fly  15:41, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * At a minimum, I'd say the prose needs some work and the formatting of the charts citations needs improvement. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Album sales
I don't agree with the 25 million figure especially after checking the source... do you guys really think that the "london paper" is reliable enough to back up these kind of information? Reidlos (talk) 10:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it is, "The London paper" seems to be reliable, I am not calling it Billboard, but its worth a thing or two. I would keep it.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   12:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * However I get where your coming from, so ill look for another supporting source.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   12:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Heres a source from BET, I think this is better and helps suppport it. Tell me what you think :)-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   13:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems like the sale figures are a little bit inflated. In 1999/2000, Sony Music Japan stated the sales for her debut at 12 million and since then the album had not had re-entered any charts around the world (including Billboard's catalog albums) and it wasn't re-certified either, so to assume that the album sold additional 3 million units since then is nonesense. The same goes for Music Box. It says 28 million, but her labelS reported on the album's sales a few time during the 90s and 00s. For example (in 1995 before the release of 'Daydream'): "The 25-year-old singer's 1993 release, "Music Box," has sold 23 million copies worldwide". Then in 1996: "Mariah Carey's worldwide success continued to build with 'Daydream' which sold more than 14 million unitsworldwide during the year under review, while her 1993 and 1994 'Music Box' and 'Merry Christmas' sold over a million additional units." After that her label mentioned (over) 25 million copies sold a few times, but as far as I know never dared to state 28m, 30m or 32m. You're probably familiar with 'Mariah Daily Journal' (http://www.mariahjournal.com/infozone/charts/albums/worldwide/index.shtml). At the end of the site, you can read reports from Sony, Virgin and Universal and the whole data adds up if you compare it with other offical data (RIAA, IFPI, Soundscan etc.). They are pretty trust worthy if you ask me. Don't put it away just because it's a fan site. Even reliable and good sources quoted the site for their news. Thanks for reading! Reidlos (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I see where your coming from, I mean I've tried to have MariahDaily passed as reliable here before, it is reliable. However, if you add up certifications, it really isn't too far away from the claim. I mean I have never seen a recent source claim anything lower than 28 for "Music Box", the album was certifed in every possible country, so I don't find it so unbelievable. Anyhow, we can only go by sourcing, so I don't know what else too do, I don't ever see soources list anything under 22 for "Daydream" either so I don't know. Thanks for the discussion! :)-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   02:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "you tried to pass it as reliable source"? What or who hindered you? Just curious! Reidlos (talk) 13:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sure, I would be happpy to show you the discussion, Ill look for it if you would llike. But Myself, Jayy008 and Lil-Unique1 all wanted to try and have the website reliable for certain certifications that are unavailable to us. So as per guidance of Kww I found various reliable sources quoting MDJ, showing its reliablity. The reason being because Kww was going too write something as a vote to pass it as useable on Wiki, so he asked me to gather sources. I don't remember the sources, again I could look and find out, they were like BET, Rap-Up and like 4 more. But unfortunately, even after I got the sources, Kww just seemed to have lost his belief in the project and just said to let it go, for reasons Im not sure. Thats pretty muuch it :). If you want more info let me know and Ill show you :D-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   02:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

When I Saw You
I think "When I Saw You" should have it's own page considering the fact tht it was released as a song outside the U.S.! You can check on the web for sources and art covers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.153.118.144 (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Daydream (Mariah Carey album)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Daydream (Mariah Carey album)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "austria": From Music Box (Mariah Carey album):  From Fantasy (Mariah Carey song):  From One Sweet Day:  From Heartbreaker (Mariah Carey song):  From Rainbow (Mariah Carey album):  From Charmbracelet:  From Butterfly (Mariah Carey album):  From Emotions (Mariah Carey album): </li> <li>From MTV Unplugged (Mariah Carey EP): </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 08:34, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Acclaimed?
This album was not universally acclaimed as it states. There were several reviews that called this album "soulless" St. Louis Dispatch - https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1P2-32966388/is-a-little-more-funk-too-much-to-ask Star - News - http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19951006&id=aE5OAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KxUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2739,1966026 Dayton Daily News - http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=0F51AEC0F4B946F4&p_docnum=2 Hartford Courant - http://articles.courant.com/1995-10-05/entertainment/9510050834_1_soulful-mariah-carey-columbia-records-anita-baker — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.12.254.241 (talk) 14:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

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Assessment comment
Substituted at 01:10, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

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Regarding changes to the worldwide sales figures of the album
Please refer to this RfC (originally found at Talk:Mariah Carey albums discography), which has determined by consensus the worldwide sales of Daydream to be 20 million. While consensus may change later as this number increases over time, please do not arbitrarily change the sales figures without discussion and solid, reliable sources to back the change. MPFitz1968 (talk) 17:42, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Replaced some references in the Commercial performance section of the article which were supporting the 25 million sales figure with one that supports the 20 million one . MPFitz1968 (talk) 09:04, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Good article status ... and persistent change of album's sales figures, mainly by IPs
I don't know if the good article status here should be questioned, but there has been repeated disruptive editing with unsourced changes to sales figures in this article for many months now, which I and other editors have reverted. Does that affect the GA status? MPFitz1968 (talk) 15:54, 23 July 2018 (UTC)