Talk:DeWitt Clinton

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Untitled
"Written Report By: S.M.L"? This isn't somebody's high school project. -- Zoe

I have split the one huge paragraph into something a bit more readable! I presume as there is no mention of it that this guy is no relation to Bill Clinton, but I don't know definitively, so I have not mentioned it at all.

Dewitt Clinton is no relation to Bill Clinton. (The Clintons aren't from New York, remember?)
 * slight nonsequitor. Families move all the time, and split up.  One branch could settle in Arkansas while another settled in New YOrk.  There may be no relation, but the presence or lack of relation can't be deduced from geography.

Um, wow. This page needs some MAJOR WORK. No mention of Clinton's role in creating the "spoils system" of politics, no emphasis on how he basically set up New York State for the dominating role it played in the American economy of the 19th century... definitely putting this on my to-do list.

Freemasons
It would appear that DeWitt Clinton was also a considerable Freemason. The DeWitt Clinton monument at Greenwood Cemetary has a short biography and almost half of it is about his participation as a freemason. The plaque at the base of the statue also bears two Freemason symbols and the seal of the Grang Chapter of New York and the Grand Commandery of the State of New York. Here is the inscription on the monument;

Born March 2, 1769 at Little Brtain New York, DeWitt Clinton was one of the greatest statesmen produced by the State of New York. He was a State Senator, United States Senator, Mayor of the City of New York and Governor of the State of New York. He was the driving force that made public education a reality as well as a proponent of the abolition of slavery int he State of New York. He spearheaded the construction of the Erie Canal, which became the gateway to the American West. He was also one of the most prominent Freemasons of his day. He was Master of Holland Lodge No. 16 in 1793 and he served as the Grand Master of the Masons in the State of New York from 1806 to 1819. He was the first Grand High Priest of the Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of the State of New York in 1789 and the first General Grand High Priest oft he General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of the United States in 1816. Clinton also served as the first Grand Commander of the Grand Commandery of the Knights Templar of the State of New York in 1814, and in 1816 he was the first Grand Master of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States. DeWitt Clinton left his earthy labors on February 11, 1828 at Alabany New York. He was reinterred in Greenwood Cemetery in 1844. DeWitt Clinton was an honorable man, a true patriot and a devoted Freemason. -- KernelHappy 21:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Mayor and Lt. Gov

 * There seems to be a discrepancy in this article between Clinton's service as Mayor of New York from 1811 - 1815 and his service as Lieutenant Governor under Daniel D. Tompkins from 1811 - 1813. Could he (and did he) serve both positions simultaneously?  Some research is necessary to ensure the intregity of the data. --CPAScott 14:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No discrepancy... in those days one could hold several offices at the same time. According to [this site] "Clinton was Mayor of New York City from 1803-1815... As mayor, Clinton also held office as State Senator (1806-1811) and Lieutenant Governor (1811-1813)." Blueboar 22:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

University of New York
There is no such institution. Does the author mean New York University, the State University of New York, or some other institution (perhaps defunct)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.179.8 (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

File:DeWitt Clinton by Rembrandt Peale.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:DeWitt Clinton by Rembrandt Peale.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 25, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-07-25. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Daria
Yep. The episode of Daria called 'The New Kid', Daria befriends a new student at her high school called Zach DeWitt Clinton. If I were to create a 'In Popular Culture' section to mention this, it would surely get deleted. Here, it is safe. Zweifel (talk) 04:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

For some reason, someone came and undid this edit. I can see absolutely no reason why this was done, and judging from this person's talk page, he has a habit of both creating pages that are speedy deleted and deleting material -- substantive material -- without explanation. I am accordingly restoring my comment and encouraging this person to consider his behavior. Zweifel (talk) 16:57, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, perhaps you should try reading Talk page guidelines: "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article. Comments that are plainly irrelevant are subject to archival or removal." You admit this would be removed from the article and thus don't seem to be focusing on improving it. Cheers. Justregisteredtocomment (talk) 02:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Right it's just that I alerted an exceedingly experienced admin to what this guy was doing and she said she found it 'bizarre'. I think talk pages are a bit more liberal than that, and indeed my comments could be seen as part of 'improving' the article by not putting in a silly 'in popular culture' section.  Regardless, it is not in any way this person's place to remove content from a talk page.  All of his other behavior on Wikipedia indicates that he is a trouble-maker, and he should be treated as such.  Zweifel (talk) 06:37, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

STOP.

Why have you posted this here, does mentioning such a puerile television program contributes in any way to knowledge of DeWitt Clinton ? Unibond (talk) 01:06, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I realize I was acting a little autistic. My bad. Zweifel (talk) 07:25, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Dewittville, New York
Isn't the hamlet of Dewittville, New York (in the town of Chautauqua, New York) named after DeWitt Clinton? 206.248.181.150 (talk) 17:20, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

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Spelling of name
Is there a source or justification for the current spelling of the name (DeWitt) instead of De Witt? His own publications (e.g. Memoir of the Antiquities of the Western Parts of the State of New-York, 1820) list him as De Witt. Congress lists him as De Witt CLINTON, De Witt, (1769 - 1828), as does New York state Hall of Governors entry for De Witt Clinton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorcasina Sheldon (talk • contribs) 11:06, 6 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that his name should be spelled De Witt. The Columbia Encyclopedia concurs, as do the indexes of four history books from my shelves that I just checked. I don't think I've ever seen it spelled without the space, except here. I will fix it in a few days, if no objections are raised. Eleuther (talk) 04:40, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Summary of the name issue
This is an expanded version of the previous section, explaining why the article should use "De Witt" in its title, instead of "DeWitt", which is an evident misspelling.

This early American politician was known everywhere historically as De Witt, as documented in the previous section by as follows To this one may add the Encyclopedia Britannica (print editions), as evidenced by the fifth item in the General sources section of the article. (The situation with the online edition is discussed below.)
 * US Congress official biography: CLINTON, De Witt, (1769 - 1828)
 * New York State Hall of Governors: De Witt Clinton
 * His own works, such as Memoir of the Antiquities of the Western Parts of the State of New-York, 1820

To this I would add the following works from my own shelves, which all use the De Witt spelling
 * The Columbia Encyclopedia
 * Henry Adams, History of the United States during the Administrations of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1889-1891, Library of America Edition 1986
 * Page Smith, A New Age Now Begins, McGraw-Hill, 1976
 * Paul Johnson, The Birth of the Modern, Harper Collins, 1991

The compressed DeWitt spelling has also long been used, though not in literary sources that I've been able to find, but in more vernacular things, like place names. The earliest example I've found of this is DeWitt County, Illinois, established in 1839, eleven years after the politician's death. It's interesting (and amusing) that the Wikipedia article for this county contains the following disclaimer
 * "The U.S. Census Bureau and the USGS list the county's name as De Witt, although the county uses the name DeWitt (no space)."

The present Wikipedia article was created in 2002. A lot of its initial revisions were focused on place names, rather than on the history of the actual politician, which may help to explain why the incorrect spelling was picked up in the title. Since then, the DeWitt spelling has become fairly common online, including in some authoritative-sounding places, for instance the online edition of Britannica, and a 1998 biography published by Oxford, etc. But a lot of these errors may derive from the incorrect assumption that the misspelling in the title of the Wikipedia article must somehow be authoritative.

Conclusion: in his own mind and times, and in scholarship and in official sources, he is De Witt, and the article should be renamed to reflect this fact.

Eleuther (talk) 14:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 10 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. Daniel Case (talk) 05:06, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

DeWitt Clinton → De Witt Clinton – The rationale for the move is given in the section Talk:DeWitt Clinton earlier on the article's talk page. Eleuther (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 16:41, 18 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:27, 3 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm neutral on this -- it certainly seems like schools and such named after him don't use the space, but on the other hand it looks like he did in his own writing. And then in some official cases, like the official NYC mayor's office portrait, the space is used, while in others it is not. I just find it crazy that someone can hold two of the most prominent positions in the U.S. (mayor of NYC and governor of NY) and for there to be genuine confusion over their name!--Yaksar (let's chat) 22:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . I don't think there's genuine confusion about the guy's name. There's a historically correct spelling (De Witt) and a later incorrect one (DeWitt), as documented in the preceding section. Unfortunately, the incorrect spelling found its way into the article title. That's what I'm trying to fix. I would appreciate it if you would review the evidence a bit further, and think about perhaps supporting the change. Thanks for the consideration, Eleuther (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose - it is entirely possible that he also spelled his name without the space. Spelling was not immutable in those days and people would spell their own name differently. I suspect we are reading far more into the space than he ever did. Unibond (talk) 18:53, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for your suspicions, but do you have any evidence? Evidence would be helpful. As I described above, the earliest printed instance of the DeWitt spelling that I've been able to find comes from eleven years after his death. And I did a lot of looking. Eleuther (talk) 19:40, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * See https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41sdb3%2BD8FL._AC_.jpg Unibond (talk) 01:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi,, thanks for researching this. However, there are many images online that show that he scribbled his signature, as we all tend to do. Here's a larger example that I found on sale on Ebay, where the scribbled signature is clearly appended to a contemporaneous document that officially uses the De Witt spelling. I'm still looking for a printed example of the DeWitt spelling that dates before 1839. Do you know of one? Cheers, Eleuther (talk) 13:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * why are you giving precedence to printed materials created by third parties when the man himself is clearly not using a space in his signature ? Unibond (talk) 04:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess I just find the universal use of "De Witt" in the printed materials of the time -- newspapers, official records, his own works, etc. -- to be authoritative. Clearly, if he disagreed with this spelling, he could have had it changed. Eleuther (talk) 12:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * He was a person of some eminence, would not have been troubled with proofreading printed materials Unibond (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per page sources, per common name as shown in List of places named for DeWitt Clinton, per sources at the DeWitt Clinton (locomotive) page (although the Henry Ford Museum uses 'De Witt' which adds weight to that usage), and per his signature used in the infobox. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

De Witt family
In this article and the linked article about the De Witt family it is claimed that Clinton's mother was descended from the prominent Dutch patrician family. I find this claim suspect, and the source on it actually says she was simply a "member of a New York Dutch family," unless I've managed to miss it somehow. I have been unable to find proof that Tjerck Claeszen de Witt, the ancestor of the American family, was in any way connected to the famous de Witt family and the book "The De Witt Family of Ulster County, New York" by Thomas G. Evans notably makes no such claim. I have marked the source as needing verification on both articles. Alistoriv (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)


 * There was a prominent De Witt family in New York around this time, which I have always assumed was connected with the old-country family in some way. But you are correct in saying that the connection is not documented in the cited sources. I hope for future clarification. Thanks for raising the issue. Eleuther (talk) 11:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

City and County named after him
DeWitt, MI and Clinton County, MI are both named after DeWitt Clinton. Seems like that should be included. 167.73.35.115 (talk) 15:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)