Talk:Deaf education

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article rename
Please see article re-name discussion at Talk:Education_of_the_deaf. The outcome may have a major impact to this article's name. --Noleander (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

March.5th 2014: I have edited an errors of spelling and grammar in this article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Naiad013/sandbox — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naiad013 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

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Prodigious PC preamble
For studies of fine arts and humanities, high culture, integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior and set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a deaf-related institution, organization or group, see deaf studies.

Seriously? On what amounts to a roadside navigation sign? Is this a sneaky satire, or the real thing?

Too bad Google translate doesn't render visual ASL as one of its output modes. I'd love to watch ten animated fingers boring themselves to death.

The opposite idea is perhaps more practical.


 * Idea For 'Google Gesture' Would Translate Sign Language

But this, too, could benefit from an industrial-scale cliche filter.

"We were blown away by the caliber of the submissions and the winning teams rose to the challenge by providing concepts that not only inspire marketers, but help brands connect with their customers in a way that has never been seen before."

Sadly, I'm pretty sure that's not satire, either. &mdash; MaxEnt 21:30, 20 January 2017 (UTC)


 * That's... really wordy and somehow I'd never noticed that (I guess because I gloss over disambiguation tags unless I've ended up in the wrong place?). The entire article needs work, but that's a change I can make quick. I'm not sure what to make of the rest of your message, since to me it reads like a not-quite-related tangent. 0_o Aaaand back to my first point, looking at the disambiguation I remember something different there. Huh. Guess I'll go look through the history while I figure out the best way to truncate its current form to make sure this wasn't randomly added at some point to replace a better form. - Purplewowies (talk) 23:11, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Done-ish - Got it narrowed to what I think is the briefest way I can define deaf studies myself. Time to go give the deaf studies article the same treatment, considering what I found upon getting there was the same length of description, as well as continued linking to an article that redirects here. - Purplewowies (talk) 23:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

section: identifying deaf students
Could this section be fleshed out with references to NIH and WHO newborn screening recommendations? In the United States, deaf education can start around 18 months, and there are early interventions for infants as soon as they are identified - this may be helpful to explain as well, but I'm not sure how it plays out in other countries. - Structure1019 (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

History
John Bulwer, an English physician, [20] wrote five works on bodily human communication (particularly gestures). He was the first person in England to propose educating deaf people, [21] outlining plans for an academy in Philocophus and The Dumbe mans academie.

this paragraph should be merged with the Great Britain heading - Structure1019 (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Teacher training in the United States list
Hi,

I notice that the section on teacher training in the United States is missing some schools that offer training for Teachers of the Deaf. It would be beneficial to add McDaniel College, Boston University, and Columbia University to that list. I believe that it is important to also stress that those programs use the bilingual-bicultural ASL-English approach—with the exception for Columbia where there is no one approach since they explore and teach about the different approaches (e.g., cued speech, oral, Total Communication, bilingual-bicultural). It might help, and maintain neutrality, to add other schools offering training for Teachers of the Deaf to that list, indicating the other approaches that they use.

Hoyalzrs (talk) 04:22, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * We need to compile a well-sourced list, because the one in the article is far from complete. I've been meaning to try, but life keeps getting in the way. - Purplewowies (talk) 06:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

History of deaf education
Add in the history of deaf education on how in the 1800s they main priority was to teach the deaf about God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jparkh98 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

They would try to enforce that if they prayed hard enough, they would be able to hear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Th4td4nc3r13 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Deaf Education Section:
I noticed the very first section of this article is a little repetitive and I saw room for improvement. The first line talks about what deaf education is and I feel it can be worded better. Such as, "deaf education is for those obtaining hearing impairments that way educators can address their differences and suit their individual needs." Also instead of saying "success in the school and community" you can say "success inside the classroom and out in the world". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jianna97circelli (talk • contribs) 16:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I also found problem with this section of the article as "hearing impairment" as a term is technically accurate, but not the term the community of which this article is about prefers, as I have learned from my professors and friends with whom I have discussed the term. I propose something along the lines of "Deaf education is the education of those whose needs necessitate accommodations based on hearing level" or something of the sort. Accommodations within the IEP vernacular do not lessen the materials but rather change how they are presented so that the student has access to the information. Impairment implies that a person is limited, and in my experience, this does not have to be the case for Deaf or Hard of Hearing people. AlliH (talk) 18:14, 5 February 2018 (UTC)2/5/2018 AlliH

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Suggestion
Maybe you can elaborate on two different issues about manualism and oralism also you can explain about manualism is a benefit to the students and also oralism to see if that benefit and help the students to succeed also help them develop their language acquisition. Also, you can include the organization that supports oralism or manualism and what their issue about the approaches. but I agree that this section needs to be more elaborate and more details on how both approaches is an issue for students' education.

Good to bring up the issues to see how people would add or suggestion.

--Tylerhetu21 (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Moved this like I did the message in the next section. - Purplewowies (talk) 04:44, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Feedback or Idea
You can add more associations or organizations that combine with deaf education. here some idea or thought of an organization that helps teacher by joining this organization and this organization called "American Sign Language Teacher Association" (ASLTA). Here the link to look at it. Maybe you can expand on Deaf Education associations in international instead of focusing on two countries.

Can list of different associations from different countries.

Look good so far, --Tylerhetu21 (talk) 20:17, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Moved this here from it having been placed into article space. - Purplewowies (talk) 04:35, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure ASL teaching is the same thing as deaf ed. The idea overall may have merit (but my brain is too foggy right now to evaluate how much merit it has), but ASLTA isn't purely a deaf education association. Deaf schools might have ASL (heritage ASL and/or second language ASL) or Deaf studies classes, but that's not the same thing as deaf education itself (and ASL classes, at least, can exist completely separately from deaf education, even though they often are linked), so I'm not sure if the specific association you've mentioned fits the article scope. - Purplewowies (talk) 04:39, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Good eye, teaching ASL is not the same thing as Deaf Ed. Nor is teaching in ASL. To be considered Deaf Ed, it should be a different program for those students entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Th4td4nc3r13 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Individual needs
In the "Individual Needs" section, the last sentence is incorrect. That is a possible accommodation a student who has an IEP under the "Deafness" IEP category. Each IEP is by definition Individualized, so there should be a rephrase of language to make it more neutral (more of a "potential accommodations are" than "the student will" in a definitive sense) and more accurate as each Deaf or Hard of Hearing student will likely have different accommodations. The below source could be used as a citation for various accommodation options: www.asha.org/Events/convention/handouts/2011/Martin-Williams-Gassen/ AlliH (talk) 18:24, 5 February 2018 (UTC)AlliH 2/5/2018
 * ✅ Didn't change the source (though it may need changing, judging by my skim of it), but I did copyedit the sentence so that it had a broader reach (it was technically "neutral" in the Wikipedia sense, AFAIK, it just... it was phrased in a way that made it weird and slightly unencyclopedic). - Purplewowies (talk) 20:49, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit for note
The wording of "The benefit of inclusion" appears to be biased, so I would recommend that this quote to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DPFoley1 (talk • contribs) 22:55, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Effects of Different Education Settings/Philosophies on Deaf Students' Education Outcomes
There is a variety of peer reviewed research that shows some of the negative outcomes general education settings can have on Deaf students' education and self-esteem. Some of this research could be included under the different education settings and philosophies to provide different points of view. Peer reviewed research: , , . Ecbon (talk) 02:55, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits to lead
This is largely done here because while it's a question for that I might typically make on their user talk, it felt like the sort of thing that could benefit from being on the article's talk page to perhaps solicit wider discussion. (And I'm especially not wanting to revert back, both because it's not, like, some sort of disruptive edit or anything, and also then it could turn into an edit war or 3RR issue and, like... no.) So, here's the timeline of what has happened so far:


 * Kelly222 made an edit near the beginning of Nov 1 that changed the text of a sentence in the lead to be what felt to me as a bit murkier (note: they made an edit immediately preceding that one which removed part of a sentence in a different part of the lead but I completely agree with the removal there both because it could be a tad POV but also just because it was phrased clumsily and isn't super needed in the sentence). Given the phrasing and the context provided by the edit summary, the new phrasing came off to me as roughly equally POV, at least, and it was still uncited and felt a tad contentious with the new phrasing? I dunno.
 * I undid this edit (with a long edit summary explanation that amounts to what I noted at the end of the first bullet, though I added that content regarding individualization and stuff is cited lower in the article, which is... okay, at least, under MOS:LEADCITE (even though a citation in the lead might be worth it here)), then immediately made an edit that changed the phrasing to somewhat try to note some countries' deaf ed is legally required to have individualized plans and regular progress monitoring while attempting (but maybe not succeeding in doing so) to imply that's not the case everywhere (note: these were two separate edits not because I spent like 5 straight minutes and two different edits being "still unsure" but rather because I try not to stack a revert and a change I want to make within the same edit unless I'm only doing a partial revert). (I reverted rather than going straight to discussing because I was following the WP:BRD cycle, where Kelly222's initial edit would be the "bold", my revert would be... well... the revert, and then would come the discussion.)
 * This attempted change was reverted by Kelly222.

I think both of the original phrasings aren't the best (and that both may be worth having a citation attached, even if technically "stuff should be individualized" was more strongly connected to individualization related citations in the article body). And I'm not sure my phrasing was much better, though I was trying to hit some sort of middle ground between (summarized) the firm "it's individualized and monitored" (implying that's always the case in all countries) and "it could be individualized and monitored but it might not too" (covers countries where the landscape is less standardized or doesn't exist but when applied to a country where individualization and monitoring is codified in law it comes across as tendentious, like a "well, people break the law sometimes so we have to give equal weight to that").

To be honest, I've been thinking since I made my edit last night (even before the revert) that maybe it'd be easier to have a summarizing lead aspect for points like those in the previous paragraph if the article discussed them more in the body, i.e. if the national approaches section discussed more countries where the education may be piecemeal or nonexistent, or if the issues section discussed (with proper due weight and sourcing, of course) notable ways the system might have failed in countries where deaf education is more established and codified in law. (That is, the lead could be expanded without it feeling like it's giving undue weight to content that's not adequately expanded on in the article proper, since the lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, more or less.)

Hmm... might actually revert the 2019 removal of the "globalize" template, too, as the rationale for removing it was that a bunch of info about other countries was added, but virtually all the added information was for English-speaking and European countries. There needs to be more on other areas where I know deaf ed is done very differently or is more fledgling. - Purplewowies (talk) 16:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. If there is a country or countires with legally mandated individual learning plans we should name them. It might be the case though that countries such as USA have various rules according to state (I don't know). The other issue is that individual learning plans are often inadequate and manufactured within a tick box regime that oppresses Deaf culture and language. I'm happy to removed the globe tag. Kelly222 (talk) 05:05, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm from the US. States might have extra laws on top of the main law, but if a student is identified as in need of special education services (as deaf ed would fall under), it's federally mandated under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act that they get an appropriate education in the least restrictive environment, which is more or less always addressed by writing up an IEP. (So then oppressive aspects tend to come from bad programs or close-minded professionals or narrow interpretations by school districts of things like "least restrictive environment" (i.e. this is typically interpreted as "with nondisabled students as much as possible", even if, for a Deaf student, a deaf program or school setting might be less restrictive in a broader interpretation of the term, because of the greater ability it usually allows for conversing with other peers fluent in sign language)... but they're not exactly codified in law, at least not here.) IEP shortcomings may be worth discussing in the article, if there's a way to reliably source statements to that effect. Hmm...


 * But I think the globalize tag should stay, though--I added it because there are more countries than European and American ones that have deaf ed programs (i.e. Asian countries, Central American, African), though those may look very different from ours (I have only the most cursory of knowledge about random areas like Japan or Ghana or something). Those areas have almost no coverage in this article, which was why I (re) added the globalization tag. - Purplewowies (talk) 14:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much for explaining. Can I ask are you Deaf? If you are a hearing person you have an unusually good grasp of the issues for a hearing person. The biggest problem facing the Deaf community is Persistent Language Delay (PLD) which starts at birth because of bad ENTs wrongly telling parents that sign language will delay spoken language if the child has a cochlear implant. Here's a good article about it. Also the WFD doesn't have a program targetting PLD. Kelly222 (talk) 00:05, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm hearing! I majored in deaf ed (technically a "comprehensive" program but most people in the major seemed to prefer bilingual-bicultural methods, to the point we were pretty critical of the oral school we did our speech class with and some of the downplaying of language delays we sometimes saw with those kids). My disability eventually made it hard to finish the degree so I graduated with general studies after I'd finished 95% of the major, including all the actual deaf ed classes. I have a deaf family member, too, but she's late-deaf and doesn't sign. (I think the way I interact with the issues is probably the deaf ed knowledge, the disability community/culture knowledge, and the family member all "stapled together".) ...Gah, if I had more time to edit around here anymore, I'd be doing rewrites on some of these articles, especially as in some cases people with clear biases (which I'm no stranger to, I just feel like I generally try to control my own ones when editing) have added poorly cited and uncited claims and/or contentious labels to some deaf-related articles in the past. - Purplewowies (talk) 16:10, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nice to meet you and hear your story. Keep up the good work! I don't have a lot of time to edit and yes, it's frustrating dealing with people who won't even admit their bias. Kelly222 (talk) 03:19, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

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