Talk:Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son About His Father

Redirection of Article
It seems to me that the original story recounting the circumstances of Zachary's death stood as fact, and that the story of Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son About His Father is a case of WP:Coatracking of the subject. The book and documentary were excellently made commercial offshoots of little Zachary's short life, but nevertheless should be included as references only, as they were in the original article, or as separate articles, and that this article should be reverted back to Zachary Turner. I'd hate to make the change without discussion here. JohnClarknew (talk) 05:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The dead baby fails WP:BLP1E, whereas the movie is notable. "Coatracking" refers to the article being a coatrack, such as Barack Obama drug use or something, rather than the documentary being a coatrack for the filmmaker and the grandfather to rail against the Canadian authorities. I moved this off the baby's name for good reason. If you want to move it back, I'll oppose you, and in any case, the proper venue for controversial moves is Requested moves. Seedless Maple (talk) 07:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that little Zachary's death is the notable event, and so was his father's and mother's death, all of which stood as the event subject of the article. You are wrong, WP:BLP1E refers to Living People, not Dead People. The advertisement of the documentary and the movie's title being substituted in as the title of the page is what many readers may find objectionable. Please state your "good reason" for making this change, especially for doing so without prior discussion. I'm glad to see you admit that your move was "controversial". JohnClarknew (talk) 20:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Already did. The child was not notable. The child's death was not notable. You will note that none of the adults, living or dead, have an article. The grandparent's crusade was not notable. The movie is the notable entity. See also WP:NOTMEMORIAL. If you want to have other people's opinions, take your move request to Requested moves. Then the community will decide. Seedless Maple (talk) 20:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I just watched the documentary on MSNBC and came to wiki for more information, so I speak as a user. I first went to search by Andrew Bagby and barring that search bearing fruit, searched by Zachary Turner, which led me to the link about the movie here. I agree that an article that speaks to legal/political ramifications in both the US and Canada would be of most interest, in my opinion. I don't think the grandparents' crusade is insignificant - grandparents' rights is an active issue in my state, especially with the rise in illegitimate births. Cynmac123 (talk) 23:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)cynmac123

Cynmac123 (talk) 23:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The documentary is notable enough to have an article of its own. LiteraryMaven (talk • contrib) 20:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
Wow! Interesting that the event of the Moors Murders got a page, as did the perpetrators, who were each deemed to be notable for murdering. Hey, there's a good movie about it See No Evil: The Moors Murders. In our case, Shirley Turner murdered probably twice, so she must be notable, and deserves a page. There is no convenient title for the events. Dr. Andrew Bagby fathered the baby without knowing it, and is not notable. I wrote the page under the baby victim's name Zachary Turner. A conscious choice between him and his mother on my part; seemed to me he brings the story together, and deserves to be remembered, for without him, there would have been no crimes. Of course, you are free to write an article about the movie, the director, the book, the awards, etc. JohnClarknew (talk) 21:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I oppose your unilaterally moving this page. Per WP:OWN, you do not own this article, nor should you be ordering me to write an article. Seedless Maple (talk) 22:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

This article isn't even about the documentary. The first two sentences discuss the fact that a documentary exists. No mention of production, reviews, etc. This article should be moved to Zachary Turner. Crotchety Old Man (talk) 23:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Grounds for cleanup, not moving. Seedless Maple (talk) 03:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Which I have now done a little. Seedless Maple (talk) 04:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Seedless Maple makes an excellent case for an article to exist under the name of the movie, and for the details of the making of the documentary to go beyond the theatrical release poster image, the name of the distributor, and the name of the father's director friend who wrote it and the music and did the editing "...said to be a tour-de-force of editing". Let us have the names of the cast and the rest of the creative team and reviews too. And bring in the grandfather's excellent book also. But it is not necessary to duplicate the essentials of the crime, which surely belong in the article "Zachary Turner" which should be restored to its original form, referencing these artistic efforts. Certainly more work could be done on that article, which was not much more than a stub (although the external links went into great detail concerning the logistics and courtroom and political shenanigans.) Let's hear from some less interested and objective third parties. JohnClarknew (talk) 05:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The page has been settled by JPG-GR with the claim that "there has been no consensus" and the tag was removed. Well, at present there is a majority of 1 that says the requested move should be granted.  I hope that the user has not served on a jury. I am putting the tag back, and will request admin intervention. JohnClarknew (talk) 07:40, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Two people discussing on opposite sides does not make your side the majority. JPG-GR (talk) 19:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggested compromise: create an article about the mother - Shirley Jane Turner - she is the alleged perpetrator and the subject of the extradition proceedings. Seems to me she is notable and not just for one event. – ukexpat (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Crotchety Old Man voted to retain Zachary Turner. The compromise doesn't bother me, except that Shirley Turner was also redirected to the movie. I'd say there's a majority of 2, JPG-GR. JohnClarknew (talk) 22:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * This particular case should be made into an article. I suggest something like Bagby-Turner family deaths or Bagby-Turner family tragedy or Bagby-Turner family murder-suicide tragedy or something to that effect. This case has enough political importance for an article, and not just for the film. Lhw1 (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Holy smokes, there needs to be a Wikipedia article just about this Discussion page, as example of how some Wiki moderators are in serious need of lives. It's not like the Internet is running out of bandwidth. I personally would have liked to have seen some more information about the people involved. It is, in fact, why I'm here. But instead, all I see is a couple of losers arguing over who's Virtual Penis is bigger. Seriously, "seedless", find something more important to worry about. (Comment added by User:75.169.96.159)


 * The documentary is notable enough to have an article of its own. LiteraryMaven (talk • contrib) 20:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Strongly agree with Literary Maven and "User 75" above. I'm a professor of Humanities who uses film and I request that the information on this unique art work be retained and if possible augmented for student use. BTW, before the Internet, contrarians like Seedless Maple were a fixture of one's evening classes. No point fighting, they welcome the attention. Profhum (talk) 05:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Yep, I agree too
The problem is that this whole site is full of seedless maples and yet gets prominent placement on random Google searches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.88.176 (talk) 08:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

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