Talk:Death Valley/Archive 1

Radiating...
Re:The valley radiates extreme amounts of heat - The valley itself isn't the source of the heat. Traps heat? Absorbs and radiates perhaps. But it seems 'radiates' is misleading. Ayeroxor 04:07, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)s

Response: The statement is accurate, at least when it is hot. Your mistake seems to be in assuming that it implies something about the valley being in some sense a primary source of the heat, which it does not. Any object whose temperature is above absolute zero radiates heat, regardless of the source of the heat, although heat is also absorbed simultaneously. -- basic physics. Your suggestion of "absorbs and radiates" is also correct. The physiological perception of warmth results when the object is at a higher temperature than the skin, so that there is a net excess of radiation over absorption, which is the common-sense definition of "radiates". Neither a building radiator (filled with hot water) nor a sun-warmed rock is a primary heat source; they are simply warm objects, but the heat they radiate is quite perceptible. -- Mrnatural, 9 Sep 05yugyuyuyuy

Possible problems with Salts table
The formula given here for borax, Na2Mg(SO4)2·4H2O, raised my suspicion because it does not contain any boron. It seems to represent some kind of sodium magnesium sulfate. According to the Borax article the formula is Na2B4O7·10H2O, which is the formula here given for Tincalconite, while the Borax article gives the formula for the latter as Na2B4O7·5H2O, which is the formula here given for Kernite. -- Mrnatural, 8 Sep. 05

Extreme Temperatures
The Highest officially maximum temperature in Villamontes, Bolivia ever recorded is 49.8 centigrade. Official recordings of 78 centigrade during a phenomenia called heatburst have not yet been verified due to people thrust to the climatologists. The highest maximum temperature ever measured in the world is 97.6 celsius in august 1933 during a phenomenia called heatburst and was measured at Khalili And Quotbabad in Hormozgan,Iran. Both is located in a deep valley`s with sanddunes that rises in extreme wind situationes up to about 200 meters above the valley floor. The valleys is surrounded with big mountains. The valley`s lays in the inland and islolated and sheltered from the persian gulf.

Bush Administration position
I am suspicious of POV/accuracy of this section. While the author provided links to support the claim, the link only links to a forum's posting. If the claim is true, then it would be better to post links that are more verifiable (ie: newspaper article etc. that qualifies as secondary source. --Hurricane111 19:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

OK - there were a couple of objections so I took it back out. There is a lot going on along these lines - a person I know who took a tour of Jackson Hole and the Grand Tetons last summer was told by the tourguide that these mountains were carved out (created) by the Great Flood reported in the Noah's Ark story (in Genesis). Also this Fall at the Garden of the Gods we were told just before the presentation on how the Rocky Mountains came along (no mention of the Flood in this case, thank gosh!), that the noises we would hear were just fake sounds of rain and thunder unless Democrats were present - the Park Service would arrange for the latter to be soaked. Probably just a personal joke, not suggested by Bush and crew, but nevertheless a sign of the times (and perhaps the local politics). Carrionluggage 20:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

External Link Criteria
Hello. I am curious about link deletion. Being new to Wikipedia, perhaps someone might bring me up to speed. I contributed an external link to the Death Valley territory, one with a full array of helpful information, including an A-Z Guide consisting of 300+ explanations of the area, yet the link is deleted by the next day. The site is maintained by myself as a service to others who seek knowledge about visiting the area, so it seems (to me at least) appropriate for inclusion. It is not for profit or personal gain, which leaves me wondering why it is deleted. Here is the link for you to visit, and verify these statements: http://www.deathvalleybackcountrysafaris.com. I have visited other links about the Death Valley area on several of the Wikipedia pages, and am attempting to discover the essence of what allows them, but results in the deletion of mine. Perhaps the person or committee responsible for deleting might be able to answer this question directly. Thank you for your assistance and time!


 * We want websites that add factual information not included in the WP article, and not available on any other website. Based on a quick sniff, if you have that kind of info, it's not at all obvious, even after clicking through several levels of (attractive) pages. You might do better to provide a link that goes directly to the factual content. Stan 17:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * See my post to User talk:64.28.53.44 for an explanation. The key is in your comment: The site is maintained by myself, if you add a link to your site it is spam and assumed to be a likely promotional attempt, as in free advertising. Quite simply stated, do not add links to your own website. If you can and wish to, you are welcome to add content to the articles involved. I emphasize content, not just external links. Also note any content added should of course be sourced to a reputable reference and not your own original research. Thank you, Vsmith 00:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Elevation
I don't see any mention of the elevation of death valley. Can a knowledgeable person comment on that. Thanks.


 * Badwater in death valley is the lowest point in CA. The rest of death valley is probably below sea level too.


 * Actually, only a minority of the valley is below sea level -- the area around Badwater Basin. ScottMainwaring 00:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, most of it from furnace creek north to around stovepipe wells is as well.. A few miles north of furnace creek I measured last week at well under -200 feet MSL on the road with a GPS.. (max -232 along the road) (wgs80 datum) I believe stovepipe wells is -100 or so... --Kvuo 23:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

termperature record source?
I can't find any source that lists the high temperature of 134.7. What I have found instead is this statement

http://www.piercecollege.com/offices/weather/faq.html#Eeeexcelent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_temperature_extremes

"What was the hottest temperature ever recorded on Earth?

"September 13, 1922 the maximum temperature in Al Aziziya, Libya was 136°F. Though this is the hottest temperature ever recorded, the hottest place in the world is arguably California's Death Valley. Here's an excerpt from pg. 18 in Christopher C. Burt's book, "EXTREME WEATHER":

- "Temperatures in Death Valley, located 282 feet below sea level in interior California, have been maintained since 1911 at the Greenland Ranch near Furnace Creek. With an average daily high of 115° (sic) and low of 87° (sic) during the month of July, Death Valley is far and away the hottest location in North America and perhaps the hottest place in the world.

"[Death Valley's] absolute maximum temperature of 134° (sic), recorded on July 10, 1913, stands as the hottest ever observed in the Western Hemisphere and has been surpassed globally only by a reading of 136° (sic) measured in Al Aziziyah, Libya, located 20 miles south of Tripoli (not in the Sahara Desert, by the way). A 135° (sic) reading claimed by Tindoug, Algeria is of questionable veracity. The Greenland Ranch figure of 134° (sic) has been the center of a small controversy itself because there is no documentation of the accuracy of the thermometer and condition of its shelter, and no other official reading has ever since come close to this reading. A sandstorm was raging at the time of the observation, and some speculate hot sand or dust was driven into the thermometer casing, inflating the actual temperature.

"A 130° (sic) temperature recorded at Amos (Mammoth Tank) in the Mohave Desert in 1887 is also suspect for the same reasons. So, Death Valley's second hottest readings of 129° (sic) recorded in July 1960, and July 1998 may, in fact, be the highest true maximum temperatures ever recorded in the United States. As weather historian David Ludlum once put it, "Apparently, what this country needs is a good 135° (sic) reading made under standard conditions, so that the figure, like Caesar's wife, may be beyond question.""

The issue must be well known as the various park and US government sources cite the 129 degree 1960 and 1998 events in death valley climate events. Note that any change here should also be reflected in the weather extremes article. I'll make a note there. --Mulp 23:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Article published on the NASA website at www.gsfc.nasa.gov/scienceques2001/20010907.html in September of 2001 indicates that the highest recorded temperure for July 2001 in Death Valley was indeed on July 3rd, but that the temperature was a mere 127F. I am more inclined to believe NASA than an unlogged-in IP address coming out of Norway, so I reverted the temperature records. Zaphraud 18:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Temperature Range
From the (current version of the) article:
 * Temperatures in the Valley can range from up to 130°F (54 °C) in the day in the summer, to below freezing at night in the winter. This is among the widest temperature spreads in North America.

Something doesn't add up there. Either the low end of that range is significantly understated (e.g., instead of "below freezing" perhaps should read "below zero"), or else the width of the range is quite mundane. Pretty much any temperate climate has at least an eighty-degree range from hot summer day to cold winter night, and a 100-degree range is common. Northern Indiana can range from -20 in the winter (actual temperature, not counting windchill factor) to over 100 on a hot summer day (actual temperature, not counting what it feels like with the humidity), for instance, a range of about 120 degrees, and those are just normal temperatures, not records or anything, and Indiana is not widely noted for having a wider temperature range than is usual for a temperate climate.

So which is it? Does Death Valley have one of the widest ranges in North America, or does it only range from a little below freezing up to 130 or so? --Jonadab
 * Excellent analysis, Jonadab. If you really want to see a wide temperature range in N.America, go to Fairbanks, Alaska, where summer temperatures of sometimes as high as 80° or more can occur, and winter temps of -50° are commonplace.  A 130° range like that is tough to beat, and Death Valley surely does not come close. Unschool 22:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Trivia
Are the pop culture references really necessary? Death Valley has thousands of references in pop culture, so there's no way to list them all, and the four listed are probably not even the four most commonly known. For instance, Grofe did a Death Valley Suite, but that's not mentioned. The section, like all pop culture sections, reflects the section authors' tastes - it's "Hey, my favorite show mentioned Death Valley, I'll put that in the Death Valley article!" giving the show the emphasis instead of Death Valley.

Texasmusician 04:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep. Some editors let the trivia accumulate for awhile, then quietly delete the whole section and let it accumulate again, on the theory that those kinds of additions are "introduction to WP" edits of little long-term value, but it's unnecessarily newbie-hostile to insta-revert every time one gets added. Stan 12:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Page design messed up in Firefox
The page design is messed up in Firefox but not in IE. Why so? I've noticed that in some other articles too.--Svetovid 20:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I rearranged the pictures. Now it looks ok in both Firefox and IE. 80.255.97.36 11:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Syntax Issue
Quick Note: The word comprise is used improperly in the second sentence or so. It does not mean 'to make up' or 'compose,' as many seem to believe, but ' to constist of.' I believe the author of the sentence was trying to convey that Death Valley makes up a large part of the eponymous national park, but right now it actually reads as the opposite. I may be wrong about the intended meaning of the sentence, but I really doubt it; that wouldn't really make sense. Look up the word if there is any doubt about this. I'm gonna reword it now. No big deal but it might as well be accurate, right? 88/rosette/88 05:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Biology
Hi! Why was nothing said on flora/fauna of the Valley? Ecosystem? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk) Good question. There's clearly plenty of life, you can see the shrubs arranged in a pattern that presumably follows the flow of water underground with Google Satellite. Zaphraud 01:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Major cleanup
I've just completed a huge cleanup of this article. It was totally disorganized, contained multiple redundancies, both internal and external links were a mess, and the language was, for the most part, far from encyclopedic. Having said that, I must also say that it's still far from perfect. I've done what I could to improve the mechanics and the tone, but the article currently: I don't have enough (1) knowledge of the subject or (2) technical knowledge (like how to upload a map, etc) to do much more at this point than I already have, but I'd be happy to help out in any way I can if anyone wants to tackle any of the above. I think this is growing to be a pretty decent article and I'd love to see it become a really good one. Thanks in advance to anyone who has anything to add. -- edi  (talk)  01:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * needs more sources cited (don't they all!),
 * would seriously benefit from a map showing the exact location of the Valley,
 * desperately needs a section on flora and fauna,
 * has a "section" on Recreation that I just created out of bits that I took from places where they were irrelevant, but saved because I think there's actually a lot (for someone who knows more about it than I do) to say about recreational opportunities in the area -- it needs to be expanded,
 * contains two redlinks that I actually created in the course of my cleanup (something I almost never do) because the subjects appear to me to be important enough to merit an article; if I'm wrong about that, feel free to remove the links, and
 * contains a "Popular Culture" section that probably should be deleted entirely but I hated to do it for that simple reason that Death Valley Days was so huge in American culture, and it consisted largely of actual true stories from the region -- again, feel free to overrule me on this one.
 * The "low temperature" in January of 67F doesn't make sense!

popular culture
we should add the undertaker (wrestler) comes from death valley. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.241.92 (talk) 21:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I did it got removed though —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.199.44 (talk) 18:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Depth-Temperature Correllation
Can someone please explain to me why temperatures increase at lower elevations? --Jorge1000xl 12:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There is more atmosphere above the ground at that point. It is sort of like adding more blankets. Val42 21:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

See the Wikipedia article "Lapse Rate" for an explanation of the adiabatic atmosphere and why temperature is a function of elevation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.165.153.134 (talk) 06:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

badwater is not the lowest point
Badwater is not the lowest point in North America. That's a common piece of misinformation. The lowest point is several miles west. Badwater is the lowest that you can easily drive to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.170.59.138 (talk) 17:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Hottest Western Hemisphere temp
In intro:


 * Death Valley holds the record for the highest reliably reported temperature in the Western hemisphere, 134 °F (56.7 °C) at Furnace Creek on July 10, 1913—just short of the world record, 136 °F (57.8 °C) in Al 'Aziziyah, Libya, on September 13, 1922.

The article for the Western Hemisphere states that the dividing line between Eastern & Western runs through Algeria. Therefore: Libya is in the Eastern Hemisphere. Therefore: huh? --Jamieli (talk) 15:10, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * And the problem is - what? Libya is both world record and Eastern hemisphere record, Death Valley is record for Western hemisphere. Stan (talk) 22:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is I can't read/am an idiot. Ugh.  --Jamieli (talk) 00:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Section under HISTORY needs word change
Thanks for the nice article! In the HISTORY section, second paragraph last sentence, I think a descriptive word needs to be changed, from extracted to freighted.

From the article: "In the 1880s, borax was discovered and extracted by mule-drawn wagons."

I am a chemist and to me the word extracted implies a process involving mechanical and/or chemical means used to separate something of value from unwanted earthen material, and because of the context being about mining the descriptive wording needs to reflect that subject. As far as mining borax in Death Valley, that extraction process was carried out at primitive chemical processing facilities at places like Eagle Borax Works and Harmony Borax works. The purified borax was then freighted out of Death Valley to Mojave, California, using large wagons pulled by the famous twenty mule teams (actually eighteen mules and two horses: see Twenty mule team).

Thanks! Linstrum (talk) 20:02, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Surface area of the park
I don't see the area of the park displayed on the right hand side under the map. See for instance the Wiki entries for Glacier, Yosemite, Yellowstone.

In that section, perhaps the "Geography" header should be pushed up above the elevation numbers.

And i can't figure out how to edit that section - can someone help me with that? The gross area of the park from the NPS "acresbypark12CY.pdf" which i pulled from the the NPS site this morning, is 3,373,062.74 ACRES. I would footnote/reference that similarly to the the example in the Yellowstone Park article, Reference #1:

"Listing of acreage as of December 31, 2012". Land Resource Division, National Park Service. Retrieved 2014-01-30. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Polebridge (talk • contribs) 14:48, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

This is the article about the valley. The article Death Valley National Park is about the park, and has the area value you mention, above. —hike395 (talk) 16:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah, of course. Thanks for that. I should have twigged to the obvious when i was wondering why i wasn't seeing a lot of other stuff on the page. And i think i've figured out how to edit the Infobox.Polebridge (talk) 16:40, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Moving stones
Hi. I read in a book that some stones in Death Valley move mysteriously, ranging from pebbles to boulders. The stones do not appear to move but can be tracked over time, and sometimes also leave long drag trails. It can not be due to gravity because the ground is flat. It has been suggested that magnetism may be a factor, but that does not explain why some stones move in completely different directions while some do not move at all. Should this be mentioned? If you must know, the book's citation would be: UNEXPLAINED, by Judy Allen, ISBN 0-7534-5950-7, pg 65. Is it already mentioned somewhere? SHould it be mentioned now that it has a citation? Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 16:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You're thinking of the Racetrack Playa and the Sailing Stones --Kvuo 20:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The moving stones have since been plausibly explained as being propelled by shallow ice sheets that form in winter over the flat desert surface. When the strong desert winds sweep across the ice, the stones skid a few inches. See Sailing_stones 172.10.238.180 (talk) 05:37, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Map needed
There needs to be a map of the death valley

http://www.aaroads.com/california/images/death_valley_map.gif — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manish Samtani (talk • contribs) 12:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Commons has a National Park Service map File:Death Valley,20000223,free map.png and it is used on the Italian Wikipedia. Obviously needs to be expanded to read and then it is a bit blurry. Vsmith (talk) 13:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Lut desert
I think that the paragraph about the Lut desert should be removed. The temperature reported by MODIS is not comparable to the record temperatures reported by meteorologists. MODIS measures ground temperature (that has been baking in the sun). Temperature records are measured in the air (in the shade, actually), a couple of meters off the ground. It's apples and oranges. The IP editor sprayed the same paragraph around multiple articles in WP (and, in fact, did a copyright violation while doing so). I kept the information at List of weather records, which seems like the right place to talk about different forms of temperature measurement. For Death Valley, I don't think it's relevant. —hike395 (talk) 07:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC) —hike395 (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Devil's Golf Course
The article and Badwater Basin don't even mention the Devil's Golf Course! Devil's Golf Course confusingly refers to Badwater Basin, but doesn't explain in a comprehensible way what their relationship is. --Espoo (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

death valley is known for its extremely hot weather and the warmest low temperature ever recorded:107°f. another record has been tied in o♦ as 107 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.126.170.149 (talk) 00:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Erroneous statement in text not supported by cited blog page
The text states: "On April 22, 2012, Death Valley recorded the hottest April temperature in North America: 113 °F (45 °C), beating the previous record by over 2 °F." and cites http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2079 to support this statement.

However, the blog page cited does not support this statement. The blog pages state: "Most notably, the 113°F measured at Furnace Creek in Death Valley, California on Sunday, April 22 was tied for the hottest April temperature ever recorded in the U.S. According to wunderground weather historian Christopher C. Burt, the hottest reliable April temperature ever measured in the U.S. was 113°F in Parker, Arizona in 1898. A 113°F reading was also taken at Catarina, Texas in April 1984, and at Greenland Ranch in Death Valley on April 24, 1946."

Thus, this was not the hottest April temperature in North America it just tied several other records. It did not break the previous hottest temperature by over 2 degrees. Please correct this or delete the erroneous text.162.104.232.31 (talk) 17:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

✅ Thanks for checking this! —hike395 (talk) 13:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Louis-Philippe Loncke
In November 2015, Belgian adventurer Louis-Philippe Loncke completed the first ever unsupported traverse from north to south of the death valley national park. It took 8 days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.243.97 (talk) 16:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

New NEWS today, FYI
There is already a picture (and text) about blooming flowers in the article. Headline-1: Death Valley Is Experiencing a Colorful ‘Superbloom’ QUOTE: "Death Valley, one of the hottest places on Earth, is currently a riot of color: More than 20 different kinds of desert wildflowers are in bloom there after record-breaking rains last October.
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/science/death-valley-is-experiencing-a-colorful-superbloom.html

It’s the best bloom there since 2005, according to Abby Wines, a spokeswoman for Death Valley National Park, and “it just keeps getting better and better.”

The flowers started poking up in November, but the particularly colorful display emerged late last month in the park, which is mainly in California but stretches across the Nevada border. On Twitter and Instagram, park visitors have taken to calling it a “superbloom.” ... The primary threads in the floral carpet are yellow — the most common flower is called Desert Gold, which looks like a yellow daisy. Credit National Park Service" -- AstroU (talk) 05:56, 23 February 2016 (UTC) -- PS: FYI for future editing.

Death Valley is now officially the hottest place on Earth
The WMO (World Meteorological Organization) this morning de-certified the record for the world's highest surface temperature, held for 90 years by El Azizia, Libya. The now official hottest temperature ever recorded on Earth was the 56.7°C (134°F) reading taken at Furnace Creek (née Greenland Ranch) in Death Valley on July 10, 1913, should someone wish to adjust this page (which will likely become a bit more popular now). http://wmo.asu.edu/, and http://www.wunderground.com/blog/weatherhistorian/comment.html?entrynum=89 75.147.156.165 (talk) 13:14, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The New York Times article states that the hottest temperature occurred at Greenland Ranch, and the next highest temperature occurred at Furnace Creek.
 * Which source is correct?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Before 1933, Furnace Creek was called Greenland Ranch., so they are the same record, just with different names. —hike395 (talk) 05:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Before 1933, Furnace Creek was called Greenland Ranch., so they are the same record, just with different names. —hike395 (talk) 05:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I have just changed it to 56.7 C, because it was 57 C. Wikipedia says the hottest earth temperature was 56.7 C, so I have changed it so it is correct. (90.196.63.44) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.63.44 (talk) 18:09, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * We can't use ourselves as a source. Dawnseeker2000  20:36, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It's not. The highest temperature was 57,7°C in Libya. Frankly this article is filled with many oddly specific, if not unsourced record claims. I don't really mind but you run a high risk of getting these claims debunked. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 21:06, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

So which is the highest overnight low, 107 F recorded in 2012 or 110 F recorded in 1918? The article lists both, without noting the contradiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edgy4 (talk • contribs) 01:58, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Two articles?
Please see this comment questioning whether we need to articles on Death Valley. If we do, I suggest that we make sure the two articles refer to each other in the early sentences, rather than in the disambiguation link at the top of the article. Please comment here: Talk:Death_Valley_National_Park. --David Tornheim (talk) 03:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

IUCN designation
For now we decided not to include an IUCN designation in this article per this discussion. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2018 (UTC)