Talk:Death and funeral of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh/Archive 2

Meaning of this sentence?
According to this BBC news report, it says, "Parliament will honour the duke on Monday, with the House of Commons sitting at 14:30 BST for tributes following his death." What is the exact meaning of this? Sungodtemple a tcg fan!|!!1!1|11!|!! (talk) 13:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Basically, the House of Commons will sit on Monday (coming back a day early from recess) to pay tributes to the Duke of Edinburgh The Historian (talk) 14:12, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Request images
Can anyone take photos of the public lay flowers for Prince Philip outside Buckingham Palace ?--Wpcpey (talk) 15:02, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It's in a public place, so I'd assume so? If you're asking for someone here to take the photos and add them... good luck? I'd imagine if that's going to happen, someone's already planning to. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 15:15, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

But today still don't have any photo.--Wpcpey (talk) 10:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm going to guess nobody took a photo and then added it to commons? You can't implore people in London to take photos for you, just wait and see if they do. Kingsif (talk) 10:27, 10 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The search at Commons could be (philip + flower + buckingham), which shows nothing at the moment, but that will change as soon as (or if) someone uploads an image with those keywords.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 10:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Take a look at this....
...and consider deleting it here. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 16:46, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've tried, but I've come to the attitude that we could for everyone to respond and then cut it back to "officials from [list] expressed condolences". If there are more personal messages from some big figures, they might get a quotation. Kingsif (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Quoting from the original thread: We normally omit the the world leaders' meaningless "thoughts and prayers" stuff as it is WP:RUNOFTHEMILL and adds nothing of value to the article. The only reason we would add any of this at all, is if any of them had anything substantive to say. I don't see anything substantive here, just leaders and states delivering the usual condolences and recalling their experiences with HRH Prince Philip. If a country states like "Ha! Thank God Philip died" then it would be out of the run and should be included.  --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 17:25, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Compare this article to Death and state funeral of George H. W. Bush. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 17:31, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The inclusion of the list of expressed condolences is for archival and access purposes as this situation is developing. Once the article has been fleshed out then these quotes could be used in the article. It's best to leave it here for future editors to build on. It could also be used in a potential "Reactions" section later on once the article has been developed. --Aknell4 (talk) 17:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What Aknell said; and people are just going to keep adding their nation's response if they don't see it. It can be easily cut down almost completely when the news is not so fresh. Kingsif (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Huh. Ok then. Last time I did it in SJ 182 someone just reverted my ten minutes of work and nobody ever agreed to bring it back. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 17:41, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe we're more sympathetic, I've certainly been trimming more than anything, but I don't think one editor should be able to post an opinion on a talkpage and use it as validity to remove large chunks. Especially in current. Yes, a lot of the responses are meaningless, but a simple list at the end of the day is manageable and it's much easier to compile that if all the references weren't deleted hours and however many revisions earlier. Kingsif (talk) 17:45, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean in most death and state funerals we have no "officials from [list] expressed condolences" because such sentence would still also be a ROTM. But let's attract more discussion, shall we? :)--Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 17:46, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, at a minimum I do think there should be distinction from government responses and those of European monarchies. Since the latter are basically his extended family. And Greece may warrant UK-like treatment, as he was Greek by birth. Kingsif (talk) 17:59, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * So, the responses that we include would be UK, Greece, and related monarchies. Other than that it's all diplomatic ROTM. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 18:03, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say no nation or leader expressing condolences is notable or worth including. It is just expected and meaningless diplomatic noise. As I was quoted as saying above, it is only notable if some leader says something unusual, like "good riddance, I am glad he is finally gone" or similar. - Ahunt (talk) 19:04, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * My suggestion would be to summarise the section along the lines of something like "Expressions of condolence were sent by the leaders of..." then list the countries rather than quoting each leader. This is Paul (talk) 19:36, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Radio and television broadcasting
Wondering if a mention should be made of the reaction of radio and television broadcasting to the news. As would be expected there are major schedule changes on many television channels, while radio programming has also been amended. Any thoughts? This is Paul (talk) 16:57, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I was considering this as well; a couple of brief sentences would seem appropriate. This article on how British broadcasters responded may be a good start. --Bangalamania (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Added details from the Deadline article in this edit. Kingsif (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks ok, I added a mention of BBC Four, which has suspended all programming for the night. This is Paul (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Also a link to summary of international newspapers. Kingsif (talk) 18:31, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

It might be worth mentioning that there were many complaints (millions?) from members of the public about schdules being interrupted. BBC had blanket identical coverage on BBC 1, 2 and News, and all radio statios were switched over to BBC Radio 4. ITV also had many complaints re this issue. Mjroots (talk) 11:16, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Going to need a source, but that would go in the response section, presumably Kingsif (talk) 12:06, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There's Yahoo News for one. Plenty of other sources available. Mjroots (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Royal Standard
This was just mentioned on the BBC's coverage, and is perhaps worth a note when mentioning flags being flown at half-mast. The quote comes from the i newspaper, but others mention it too: The only official flag that is never flown at half mast is the Royal Standard, which is the flag of the British monarch. This is because there is always a living monarch, given the title immediately passes over upon a sovereign’s death. This is Paul (talk) 19:28, 9 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Included. Kingsif (talk) 19:41, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * and it wasn't until after the death of Princess Diana in 1997 that any flag other than the Royal Standard had ever flown over Buckingham Palace. Then, following a tabloid-press-fuelled public outcry that the Royal Standard was not being flown at half-mast (for the reasons given above) that the Queen scrapped the long-standing protocol and allowed the Union flag to be flown over the palace in place of the Royal Standard when she was not resident. So the Union flag was flown at half-mast over the palace for the first time when the Queen left the premises to go to Diana's funeral.

Remarks by the Royal Family
The Duke and Duchess of Sussex released a statement on Prince Philip's death, and I see it should be fit to include a section for individual Royal Family Members' remarks about the Prince. Perhaps a section under Reactions for the Royal Family? --Aknell4 (talk) 20:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * nevermind it already happened --Aknell4 (talk) 21:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Flags on International Reaction section
Shouldn’t the flags of each country be shown next to their response on the International Reaction section? Thriley (talk) 21:41, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No. Kingsif (talk) 22:33, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Why not? In my view it looks more encyclopedic that way. Thriley (talk) 00:26, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Because there's a policy saying no. Kingsif (talk) 00:31, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:ICON Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 00:37, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Why are other royal families being mentioned
Along with the ones the Duke was related to? Seriously, what is more special about them than, e.g. the President on Ireland, a nation with much closer ties to the UK than Saudi Arabia? Nothing. So can please defend repeatedly making this edit! Kingsif (talk) 22:33, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I can turn them into a footnote as well if it bothers you so much. Keivan.f  Talk 22:35, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Or you could answer the question instead of snark. Kingsif (talk) 22:36, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read WP:GOODFAITH before labeling everything as a snark. Keivan.f  Talk 22:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Speaking of, me leaving actual civility questions isn't something that will interest any admins, except in your threat-filled behavior. Were you AGF when you wrote that? Because I want to interact on good terms with you, which is impossible if all your responses are blatant sarcastic digs. Now, to the random monarchies: if you don't have an answer you genuinely won't mind a footnote I hope. Kingsif (talk) 22:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Glad you brought this up, because if you really intended to interact on good terms you wouldn't have called me "pissy" and advised me to "grow up", because that doesn't sound very civil, and under no guidelines I'm required to tolerate such behavior on my talk page. Despite all of this, I took into consideration your advice and put the info under a footnote as personal issues should not prevent us from making useful contributions. Keivan.f  Talk 22:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If you want to discuss that, it's not suited to this talk page, but if you've actually read the policy you're pushing you know that I'm entitled to criticize you for your behavior towards me, and when that involves accurately describing something as "pissy" then you are entitled to remove it. Kingsif (talk) 22:55, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Okay, let's just calm down here and assess the situation before throwing petty insults at eachother. The other royal families are mentioned as they are either representing their countries, or because they are related to the Duke. All this back and forth about what someone said before isn't necessary now IMHO. --Aknell4 (talk) 02:15, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, I think Kingsif's argument is that European royalty's names can be included in the body of the article, because they are relatives of Prince Philip. On the other hand, royals from other parts of the world have no blood connection to him, and whatever they say has the same level of importance as the presidents and prime ministers of some other foreign nations. So they should be included as a footnote, rather than a paragraph. I wonder what other users think. Keivan.f  Talk 02:26, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I would be in support of putting relatives in the main body and non-relatives issuing statements in an official capacity in footnotes. It's what we've been doing now for other world leaders, so why not royals? --Aknell4 (talk) 02:33, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Then I'd be glad if interested users could help with finding reactions from Prince of Liechtenstein and Grand Duke of Luxembourg (if any exists), because they are considered relatives as well. Keivan.f  Talk 02:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Have you found Liechtenstein/Luxembourg statements yet or would it be worth it for me to search now? Kingsif (talk) 12:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've added the Grand Duke of Luxembourg. --Aknell4 (talk) 13:26, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

41-gun salute
Does the 41-gun salute belong here or at Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, or at both? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably both. Without getting too detailed, there should be sufficient coverage of his death, funeral, and honorations at the bio. Kingsif (talk) 12:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

hospital stays
The Duke was hospitalized more than four times. He was hospitalized in Dec. 2011 at King Edward VII's Hospital for heart surgery, in June 2012 at King Edward VII's and August 2012 at Aberdeen Royal Infirmary for bladder infections, in 2013 for exploratory abdominal surgery at King Edward's VII, and in June 2017 and December 2019 at King Edward VII's for unspecified "infections," then February this year for a "pre-existing condition," then being transferred to St. Bartholomew's and then back to King Edward's VII; that is a total of 8 times, not 4. 98.10.165.90 (talk) 13:35, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Since four was unsourced MATH, changed it to "several". Short reminder that neither the word "hospitalize", nor any "-ize", should be used per ENGVAR if people want to change it. Kingsif (talk) 13:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

State Funeral vs. Royal Ceremonial Funeral
At the moment, the article states that Prince Philip would have been entitled to a state funeral, however, this is incorrect. He would have been entitled to a Royal Ceremonial Funeral, similar to that of the late Queen Mother. Full State Funerals are reserved for the actual monarch and in very rare other cases over history to others deemed suitably appropriate. There is no entitlement for the spouse of the monarch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.251.213 (talk) 16:07, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for that conjecture that disagrees with the BBC or what? Kingsif (talk) 17:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Is the Parliament of the United Kingdom official enough as a source? https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06600/

Image
Can we just come to a consensus on what image to put in the infobox instead of changing it every 5 minutes? What images of Prince Philip are available for use here? --Aknell4 (talk) 19:19, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the current one is good, and since it hasn't been changed in hours it seems that everyone agrees. Keivan.f  Talk 01:45, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Finally. Thanks. --Aknell4 (talk) 01:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Edit Request - Section "Reactions to Death/Commonwealth"
Current

" and is planned to be observed in New Zealand from Point Jerningham at an appropriate time on 11 April."

Requested edit

" and was observed in New Zealand from Point Jerningham at noon on 11 April.


 * Done --Aknell4 (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2021 (UTC)