Talk:Death growl/Archive 1

Tutorials
I think more information can be provided on the correct way to death grunt and misconceptions on how to do it. The Zen of Screaming by Melissa Cross deserves some mention. I first heard about her on NPR.  Correction; that DVD is worthless.

Worthless may be a bit strong, but the obtrusive sales pitches make it close to worthless. Still, some useful information IS contained.

Thomas Lindberg and Brett Hoffman
Need a mention. Lindbergs work on the recent Nightrage albums is exceptional. Brett Hoffman on Malevelent Creations The Ten Commandments is worthy of inclusion on that one disc alone. Hoffman is more of the insane growler who uses shrieks as well but this album dates back to 1991. Still a stellar death grunt which i would prefer to see as growl. Blunt 07:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thomas Gabriel Fischer?

Nobody seems to have mentioned Tom G. Warrior of Celtic Frost. British magazine Kerrang lauded his use of Death Grunts as far back as 1985, so I think you'd need to have him in as one of your more influential growlers.

Peter Tägtgren
Where the hell is Peter Tägtgren from Hipocrisy/Bloodbath?? Quite possibly the best vocalist in death metal... probably the only vocalist in all of death metal that I would hold above Âkerfeldt himself... amazing range and the sickest growl of them all... yet nowhere on the list. It's a travesty I tell you... No respect at all.


 * This is not a list of your favourite DM vocalists, but a list of the MOST IMPORTANT Dm vocalists. Which means those who helped invent it, basically. Ley Shade 02:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm saying... he could teach a lesson to anyone else on that list. His work with Hypocrisy and Bloodbath have been incredibly influential to the genre as a whole. Not to mention Hypocrisy has been around for much longer than Opeth and many of the others that have "set examples" for the genre. Defintely worth mentioning in my opinion


 * So add them. My point still stands however. Ley Shade 03:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Spearhead's revision
I made some copy edition to the article - which is progressively becoming better, BTW - but the fourth paragraph is enormously POV. Expressions such as "sickness" and "sonic assault" are not encyclopedic. So I have moved it to here so that this can be worked out, and once it is, we can migrate it back to the article. I made a half-hearted attempt at fixing it, but gave up, since I really don't know of a way to fix it without starting another edit/POV war.
 * Yeah, good point. Altho "sickness" is a NPOV wrt Autopsy as sickness is the main theme of Autopsy in lyrics and artwork and they try to put that into their music and vocals as well. All in all the first phrase seems to be reasonable. The rest needs some work.Spearhead 21:19, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I did some text flow improvements, but since I know nothing about Napalm Death, I pretty much guessed the "whilst also generally bringing more speed to the vocalisation of the lyrics" part, based on what you originally wrote; if it's worng information, just remove it. Also, I spent about ten minutes trying to find a way of changing the word "sickness", but I'm stumped. I guess I'll have to live with it, but it still does not sound very encyclopedic to me, in this context. --Sn0wflake 23:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

So let's try to work this out in the best way possible:

"The vocalists from the British grindcore band Napalm Death - Nic Bullen, Lee Dorrian and Mark "Barney" Greenway - further developed the style in the 1980s, adding more aggression and guttural elements to it. Along with the vocal techniques of Carcass, sickness and aggression is further included. A strong focus on sickness was developed in the US by Chris Reifert and Chris Barnes. And in parallel in the Netherlands Martin van Drunen developed his own somewhat higher and raspier but very sick vocals for the band Pestilence. John Tardy influenced the scene to more extreme and deformed vocals on the debut of Obituary. Whereas Frank Mullen created a different singing pattern over the rhytmic complexity of Suffocation, leading to a more violent sonic assault." --Sn0wflake 20:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Amended
I have re-added the singers for Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride, in part because the article mentions gothic/doom metal bands as using death grunts, and Holmes and Stainthrope were quite influential in that regard.
 * I am against Holmes - I'll admit Stainthorpe was influential in some way... Paradise Lost was a death metal band that eventually slowed down (and later cheesed out) and the grunts slowly vanished with them. Spearhead 21:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The same can be said for Lee Dorian - after he left Napalm Death (which was a very brief existence to start out with) he joined Cathedral, in which his vocals were very clean. If Dorian is on the list, so should Holmes and Stainthorpe. --Danteferno 14:50, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that Holmes didn't contribute anything special to the genre... when he could have been contributing something however, he moved away from grunts. They're on Lost Paradise, on Gothic they are weakening and on Shades of God their not a glimps of the grunts on the early PL - which was merely a death metal band during their demos and debut. Dorrian on the other hand was the lead singer of ND during one and a half album - then he indeed went on to do something. ND with Dorrian contributed majorly to the shaping of the grindcore genre, so there is no point in discussing him being on the list. And like I said, I'll grant you stainthorpe who did contribute something on turn loose the swans. Spearhead
 * But "Lost Paradise" and "Gothic" have also been very influential on the Doom/Gothic/Death genre - Katatonia, Theatre of Tragedy - and many others -  have cited all aspects (including vocals) on those albums as an influence. If Dorian's vocal influence for grindcore is included on the list (despite his discontinuation of the vocal style), the same should be said for Holmes for Gothic/Doom/Death Metal, despite his discontinuation of the vocal style. Do note that that I put "early" Paradise Lost vs. just Paradise Lost.  --Danteferno 15:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * you're missing the point entirely - it doesn't matter whehter he continued the style or not (many didn't: dorrian, Walker, Steer, White, Ingram, Barnes, Bullen... they all dropped the grunts. The point is that Holmes did not really contribute anything from the style that wasn't already there. But please provide references to Katatonia or ToT Spearhead 15:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * But Lee Dorian discontinued the style as well. And while we're on the subject of Doom/Death Metal vocalists discontinuing or "cleaning" up their vocal styles - why is Darren Moore (Mourning Beloveth) even on the list, then? I say "gothic metal" and "doom metal" should be taken out of the the article if there is no agreement/consensus to good, early examples. --Danteferno 13:31, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Are you seriously proposing to remove Dorian off the list? You must be joking -get a clue before getting into arguments. Doom/death metal is an essential form of death metal taking the style of death metal but slowing it down and thriving on different emotions. Instead of anger and aggression, sadness and despair are dominant. Grunts are very commonly used by almost all death/doom bands (ditto for funeral doom, industrial doom). So there is no reason to remove doom/death singers from the list. And gothic metal? Where do you see that on the list? There is no tristinia, the gathering or whatever here - and so it should be. Spearhead 20:22, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I never said Dorrian should be taken off the list; you feel that only "long time" vocalists of this style should be on the list, yet Dorrian (like Nick Holmes) only used the style briefly. It's definitely becoming very POV vs. factual. Paradise Lost actually pre-dated Anathema, My Dying Bride (and Mourning Beloveth) and were influences for all 3 bands (among many other Doom/Death bands, and Goth Metal bands). So I'm putting Paradise Lost back on. Buck up and deal. If you remove it again, it's 100% confirmable that you're only including the bands you like. Danteferno 17:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, I have re-added David Vincent (Morbid Angel). Vincent pre-dates many of the "notable" singers of the list and there is absolutely no reason, whatsoever, he should be removed again. --Danteferno 11:10, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Vincent only joined MA in 1989, a time when of the singers, including Lee, Schuldiner, Dorrian, Steer, and Walker. And his grunt is nothing special. So there is no reason to keep him on the list. Nic Bullen may be one to put on the list tho as one of the first album recordings containing grunts. Spearhead 21:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * So let me get this straight: Dorian was on only one Napalm Death record, Scum,and is more known for Cathedral,yet David Vincent's 7 year tenure with Morbid Angel is nothing special, eventhough he was one of the first American vocalists to fully develop the death grunt style, and the influence can be seen worldwide. It seems you're basing the judgment of this list only on bands you like. --Danteferno 14:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Dorrian is like I said on the second half of Scum and on FETO both albums are major contributions to the grindcore genre. There is no debate on Dorrian. OTOH Vincent was by far not the first American who created grunts which can be granted to Kam Lee, and somewhat later Schuldiner and Reifert all before MA. MA's influence on metal in general I will acknowledge but that's more in guitar play, drumming and general composition. Moreover if I would judge based on my interests in bands, I'd take Barnes and Tardy of the list. Personally I think SFU/CC suck and Obituary is mediocre. Both singers have however contributed to the development of grunts. Spearhead 22:08, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * As is written in the death metal article, Schudiner's vocals weren't characteristic for the death grunt vocals used today. They were an early carnation, but it wasn't until Napalm Death's Scum in 1987 that the real low, guttural style took shape. Likewise, that was the UK, and there was also a developing death metal scene in the States. Per the bio page, Morbid Angel actually formed (1984)  around the same time as Death/Mantas (1983) and Obituary (1984). Cannibal Corpse formed much later (1988).  All 4 groups are brought up as the most influntial death metal bands, music-wise, AND vocal-wise, so what is keeping MA off the page? --Danteferno 15:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Vincent did not contribute anything to the vocal style - that is my point. If you want to put any one from MA on the list - it'd be Mike Browning not Vincent - but then again neither did Mike have much influence as far as I can tell. Otherwise, I'd say Jeff Becerra (possessed) might be a could candidate to put on the list too. And Schuldiner was one of the first after Kam LeeSpearhead 15:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Funeral doom
Some one from the funeral doom metal genre should be on the list as that has turned out to become a rather different genre. I'm considering the guy from Thergothon, Disembowelment or maybe the guy from Skepticism.

Spearhead 21:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


 * But has these "Funeral Doom" bands been influential to other artists?This article is definitely beginning to lose its neutrality. Danteferno 15:09, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Disembowelment and Thergothon have influenced many other (funeral) doom metal bands. Spearhead 22:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * And Paradise Lost have influenced many Doom/Death metal bands (and I imagine a few Funeral Doom bands) but they shouldn't be on the list? Danteferno 15:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I fear that PL have more influence gothic metal bands than doom metal bands. Spearhead 20:13, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * So what? Many Gothic Metal bands (Crematory, Trail of Tears, Sins of Thy Beloved) have used death grunt vocals. You're up in arms about Nick Holmes being on the list because of his vocal change, but Lee Dorian's transformation from "death growler" to stoner rocker is petty? Give me a break. Danteferno 17:35, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Aren't White and Stainthorpe already representing "the triad" well enough? Holmes is probably the less notable out of them, despite being very good. Well, I'm just giving my opinion, as I don't care either way. --Sn0wflake 00:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * All 3 bands have been equally influential to the Doom/death genre, but Paradise Lost came first (1988). What I don't understand is why they have been left out. Anathema haven't used death grunts for a longer period, Stainthrope uses a mixture of clean vocals and death grunts. Mikael Akerfeldt (on the list) also crosses over from death grunts to clean vocals. So Spearhead's reasoning doesn't seem to make sense. (Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of these artists being on the list.)  Danteferno 00:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Rewritten
I have rewritten the article and hope it sounds much more neutral now. Feel free to make changes to it, of course. The only question which remains, therefore, regards the list. --Sn0wflake 18:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Who should be on the list?
Since there is quite some debate and editting conflicts on this page let's exercise here who should be on the key artist list, mostly concerning more recent singers. Imo the list should contain those who have played a major role in the creation or shaping of the style or are prime examples thereof.

Without a doubt: those involved in the early creation/development/shaping of the vocal style.
 * Chris Barnes (ex-Cannibal Corpse, Six Feet Under)
 * Lee Dorrian (Napalm Death)
 * Martin van Drunen (Pestilence, Asphyx, Bolt Thrower, Comecon)
 * Mark 'Barney' Greenway (Napalm Death, Benediction)
 * Kam Lee (Massacre, Mantas / Death)
 * Frank Mullen (Suffocation)
 * Chris Reifert (Autopsy, Abscess, The Ravenous)
 * Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
 * Bill Steer (Carcass)
 * John Tardy (Obituary)
 * Jeffrey Walker (Carcass, Blackstar)
 * Karl Willetts (Bolt Thrower)

Others currently on the list:


 * Nick Holmes (early Paradise Lost) - a big maybe to me
 * Aaron Stainthorpe (My Dying Bride) - what about this one?
 * Darren White (Anathema) - a big maybe to me
 * Burton C. Bell (Fear Factory) - shouldn't be here imo
 * Sylvain Houde (Kataklysm) - extending the style to a new level of brutality
 * Dave Ingram (Benediction, Bolt Thrower) - maybe - a prime example perhaps
 * Darren Moore (Mourning Beloveth) - further exansion of the style in the doom/death genre
 * Will Rahmer (Mortician) - shouldn't be here probably.
 * Lord Worm (Cryptopsy) - extending the style to a new level of brutality
 * Mikael Åkerfeldt (Opeth, Bloodbath) - prime example?

Others not on the list
 * Alexi Laiho - too generic
 * Karl Sanders- too generic

Spearhead 15:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree that the singers on the second and third list are not key to the genre. Maybe Dave Ingram, Darren White and Mikael Åkerfeldt are key to their respective genres, though. --Sn0wflake 16:11, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Holmes, White and Stainthorpe were very influential for many "Doom/Death" Metal vocalists, even if Holmes no longer uses this style. I suppose Burton C. Bell would be in question after Soul of A New Machine/Demanufacture. But to most, he was very well known for the style. --Danteferno 16:21, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Also might add that David Vincent (Morbid Angel) be included on the list as well. A very early, influential "death grunter" without question. --Danteferno 16:40, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

How about Laibach? Any one agree? I mean...just take one listen. I jsut think both their singers should be on here. Comments?

Can I throw in a vote for Dimmu Borgir's Shagrath? Perhaps not a "founding member" of the Death Growl or whatever you're deciding to call it these days, but I think he's gotten to be a pretty strong figurehead for it these days.

Alexi Laiho? I don't think so
Removed Alexi Laiho, who is obviously not attributable for a death grunt, regardless of what genre of music Children of Bodom belong to. If you're going to to include Laiho, you might as well include Anders Friden - a similar-sounding vocalist who (lately) also doesn't fit the mold of a "death grunt". Danteferno 06:46, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Where do you have a problem understanding that for anybody who has started listening to metal from about 2000 to now Alexi is influential as a vocalist who uses death grunts? --Sn0wflake 13:35, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * maybe he is influential to you but in general I wouldn't say Laiho contributed much to this vocal technique contrary to the others on the list. - Spearhead 14:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I wasn't the one who put his name on the list, but since it's there now, I'll advocate for it to be kept. A line needs to be drawn here regarding what exactly "key artist" means in this context. If it means "highly influential", then Laiho should be there, as he influenced vocalists from bands such as Norther, Kalmah, (amusingly) Sonata Arctica and a multitude of more recent bands from Scandinavia. If the lists makes reference only to the people who developed the singing style, then Burton C. Bell, Sylvain Houde and Darren Moore shouldn't be there, either. --Sn0wflake 15:31, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * What does it matter who they may have influenced, musically? Laiho is not characteristic for "death grunt" vocals. Not all death metal vocalists use "death grunt" vocals (and this speaks directly for much of the Scandinavian scene.) Danteferno 16:05, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem here is that there is no intermediary vocal style, as detah grunts are not even on normal vocals ranges. Either the singer is a bass/baritone or he is a death grunter. This of course excludes nu metal vocalists and such, which are generally tenors screaming, I'm talking about metal vocalists. "Harsh vocals" is not much of a definition, and is not very helpful for somebody who does not know the genre. --Sn0wflake 15:59, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * "Death grunts" also doesn't fit, especially in the case of Alexi Laiho/Children of Bodom. If one was going to compare Laiho to George "Corpsegrinder" Fisher, Tomas Lindberg to David Vincent or Anders Friden to Barney Greenway, the definition of what is (or isn't) easily defined as a death grunt is fairly obvious. Danteferno 16:10, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * In this case, I see two possibilities of reaching consensus: 1) an intermediary definition is found, one which actually has (or can be made into) an article to explain the vocal concept to people unfamiliar with the genre. Or, as I tend to prefer, 2) a paragraph is added to death grunt to explain that vocalists may use the concepts of detah grunting but only seldomly use death grunts per see, taking different approaches to the technique. Are you (and Spearhead) in accordance with any of the two ideas? --Sn0wflake 16:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That would probably work. There should definitely be more in the beginning paragraph then just a vocal style "employed by death metal and grindcore vocalists." (Because ironically, some grindcore vocalists don't use death grunts at all.) I am open to ideas. --Danteferno 16:32, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Spearhead, "Lord Worm" and Will Rahmer do not even have articles on them. Forward reasons of why they are notable. --Sn0wflake 15:42, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Rahmer may go - But Worm and Houde are artists that should be there - see the item above

"The death growl is in competition with black metal vocals for the cherished title of "most vicious human sound possible while retaining the ability to breathe."" -- Cite please.
 * I can fart and still breathe and that's more viscious... nonsense statement imo.

Hello.
I personally believe that the lead singer of Nile (Karl Sanders) deserves to be recognised as a brilliant death growler.
 * maybe but that doesn't make him a key artist. The singers listed added something like in style or sheer brutality. What does Sanders add. Imo not much in that respect. So I don't think he should be added Spearhead 07:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

One gets sick
Is there any evidence that vocalists of death grunt, have throat problems? which?
 * It's definitely poorly worded, but the article does not actually state that at any point. Sickness, in this case, is being used to define the feeling the vocalist was trying to to convey through his voice, not that he would get throat problems ot such. --Sn0wflake 09:05, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * some ppl do get problems with their throat tho... persistent throat ache is a common thing I think. Also polyposis is common. I doubt tho that grunting causes serious problems, more than regular singing which typically is by doing it wrong or by overusage. I haven't seen any research on this tho. Would be interesting btw Spearhead 16:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I've been doing death growls for a while and had no problems thus far. Veterans whom I know also do not have substantial problems. Anything which is strained to its limits is bound to break, of course, but if you don't overdo it, I think there is no real problem. --Sn0wflake 20:40, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I know Dave Ingram once mentioned he had throat problems/aches esp during tours. Jan Chris de Koeyer (Gorefes) also more or less ruined his vocals on the tours for False Spearhead 21:27, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * You might have misunderstood me, as I am not denying that. Growling continuosly will leave your throat somewhat numb and maybe render you voiceless for a couple of hours. If you do that repeatedly for a long time, I am sure you will end up seriously damaging your vocal cords. So it's quite safe to assume that death growlers who tour extensively are bound to have some sort of throath/vocal problem sooner or later. Maybe we should make mention to that on the article? --Sn0wflake 23:16, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Not all singers of this style damage their voice. I mean, look at Mike Akerfeldt - growling since 1987, and his singing voice is fine. Even Jonas renkse only lost his ability to growl, not his ability to sing. It does happen, but I don't think it's inevitable. --Psychoman364 02:14, 8 August 2006.

The reason Katatonia are no longer a death/doom band is because Jonas Renkse lost his voice.

How to
Been listening to death metal for years...still have NO idea how to death growl.

are there any techniques?
 * Well, if you are a tenor you are probably better off not even trying, but if you are a basso or baritone you might have a shot. If you are a tenor you can try singing like Chuck Schuldiner or Alexi Laiho, though. --Sn0wflake 19:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Seriously, how would someone go about death growling?

How about Laibach? Any one agree? I mean...just take one listen. I jsut think both their singers should be on here. Comments?

I've tried recording a few times. I just sound like a raspy whisper.

I would recommend looking here for advice, along with Melissa Cross's Website. Raven_1959 15:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Gossow
What does make Gossow a "Key artist in the development of the death grunt"?

She may be notable, but she certainly isn't a key contributor. Also she is by far not the first or only female grunter, probably the best known tho and as such she is in the main text of the article.. Spearhead 16:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, Gossow has inspired a whole generation of female death grunters (have you looked at the underground scene lately?), so that must award her a place at the list. I do agree that it's argable, but I think she should be there. --Sn0wflake 23:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Practice makes perfect, long live Barnes!

Phil?
"A chapter of his own is Pantera's Phil Anselmo, who has a distinctive style of combining high-pitched screeching with low guttural grunts and complementing these growls with clean, sometimes very high-pitched singing."

Excuse me? When did he ever growl? I'd like an example, a majority of the songs I've heard are sung or screeched. --SAlpsu

Phil Anselmo is by no stretch of the imagination a death metal growler... what the hell are you thinking

John Tardy

One of the most unique growlers is undoubtedly John Tardy from Obituary. Listening to his collected works he sounds almost intelligble compared to say Sanders from Nile. He has never been a cookie monster but definitely more a glass gargler.

Growling versus Death Grunt.
Honestly, I'm offended. Why, exactly, is it that this singing style is now called "Death Grunt" instead of the more widely-accepted term "Growling" on Wikipedia? Did the world get taken over by ponies while I was asleep? -Daniel A. A. 01:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I feel the same. I've never known a death metal or grindcore fan to use the term. Jon138 17:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Tom Warrior
Surely Tom Warrior, with his work with Hellhammer and Celtic Frost, must be credited as the creator of the archetypical and most celebrated 'death grunt'. I would say that the first time 'death grunt' was coined as a phrase was to describe Warrior's unique 'uh!'.

Kam Lee and David Vincent are without a doubt the only two American vocalists that actually nailed the 'death grunt'. Vincent can be considered an equal to warrior on almost every level.

Lee Dorrian was on all of Napalm Death's first three seminal releases (only side two of 'Scum') and produced some of the most recognisable and copied hardcore punk vocals ever.

Havohej

Mike Patton
Mr. Bungle often incorporate really interesting growls, and Fantomas is pretty much entirely screams and growls. Thus i think he deserves a place on this page. I find him to be a more interesting vocalist than most death growlers, as he can do anything, croon, scream, rap... But his growls are my favourite bits!

Paddzerin

I agree, a man who turned this movement, in to a great cliche through self expression and self paradey; e.g. "Ugly in the Morning"  from King for a Day... Fool for a Lifetime. Turns what is a metal clique inside out (1995); funny bands like Korn are still stuck in this buliding up growls to screaming; something jumped on by designer bands such as Lincoln Park and Limp Biscuit.

User:Alnico

Burton C. Bell
Just wondered why Burton C. Bell isn't cited as a influence on the growl/clean singing style? Before Soul of a new Machine this was mostly, if not completely unheard of. And that record was pure death metal in my opinion.


 * Second, I'd include him for sure. Vespine 05:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Who keeps removing Morgan Lander?!?!
In the female growlers part there are only the singers from Nucler death and Arch enemy, thoug I'm sure there are more growler women, just unknown, Morgan Lander of Kittie is quite known. I keep adding her, but someone unadds her. WHY? Morgan is an a great growler and even if she wasnt she IS a growler and belongs on this page!
 * Just a random example. There are dozens of singers - male or female - you may want to add, but this page only needs to describe those that add something the the style. It is not an indefinite list of grunters. Nevertheless create such a list if you wish as a separate article. Spearhead 09:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It says being two exceptions; that can be understood by someone who doen't know anything about growling as 'There are only these two'. It should be changed to examples, not exceptions. Seriously. And I think Morgan Lander should be there, since she is a well know and excellent growler.

a whole new article on "harsh vocal techniques"?
who think we should do this? like death grunt, goregrowls, black metal "squeals", melodeath growling, hardcore scream etc tec. would be beneficial perhaps. i dunno just a sugggestion.
 * i sure agree with this. theres nothing on screeching, likeit doesnt exist. all these things should be put in one article surely.--Lygophile 01:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Move page to Death Growl
Maybe we should move the article? No one I know has referred to growling as a "death grunt" maybe we should merge the article with growling (singing), or just move it to Death Growl to refer to singing within death metal? I agree with jon138 that this is an ackward title for the article. 1607m4dsk1llz 19:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have always known it as death grunts ever since 1990 or so. Google seems in favour of grunts too (tho possible biased due to WP). Further death growl redirects here; and I redirected growling (singing) to here as well. Maybe there is a regional aspect here... that seems to be an interesting take on it anyway and may have a few phrases. Spearhead 20:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You are probably right, I'll do some more research on the topic though you seem pretty well read on it. I don't know though, I've just always known it as a death growl and that always struck me funny how the article's name is different from what I've always thought. 1607m4dsk1llz 00:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems most know it as "growl." That doesn't matter to Spearhead or the user that reverted my move and edits, though...


 * Based on what? google results? There is a marginal difference between death grunt and death growl. Currently 11.000 vs 12,600. That doesn't seem to be a very good reason to change it - now does it?
 * Death metal grunt (1,040) + Death grunt (10,700) = Grunt (11,740)
 * Death growl (12,500) + Death metal growl (15,200) = Growl (27,700)


 * "Death metal vocals" eg give 36,300 hits. Spearhead 17:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Move the page to "death metal vocals."


 * And why change it anyway... every thing seems to link here and the most dominant terms are mention in the first line. Spearhead 17:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Links can be changed and pages can be reworded. Jon138 15:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In Australia I've always known it as a growl. Grunt implies monosyllabic, imho. Vespine 21:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * doesnt grunt refer to the umbrella term that comprises growl, shriek and screech? iv never heard "death grunt", but grunt i knew before i knew growl.--Lygophile 08:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Google results
Jon138 18:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Death metal grunt: 1,040
 * Death grunt: 10,700
 * Death growl: 12,500
 * Death metal growl: 15,200

Any female death/doom singers?
Are there any female death or doom singers? I think it would be interesting to hear a female death grunt.


 * Of course there are! Didn't you read the article?  It mentions Lori Bravo and Angela Gossow.  I'm not familiar with Bravo, but I do know Gossow's band Arch Enemy.  Her singing is solid but unspectacular--not terribly different from male death metal vocalists, in fact.  But this is easily overlooked because she's kind of hot.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 20:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * i think she's the greatest growler around. every song she gives something unique by adjusting her growl to fit the song. never heard this done, and dont know anyone with such direct controll and diversity of the sound.--Lygophile 11:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Gen Tasker of Defenestration, Otep, Morgan Lander of Kittie, ... quite a few. Separate section for them perhaps? // Gargaj 23:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

King Diamond may be a pioneer?
On the first 3 Mercyful Fate releases ( Nuns have no fun, Melissa, Don't Break the Oath, coming out in 82,83,84 ) there are a few lines which are very guttural. This was probobly King Diamond experimenting, but notably on "Nuns have no fun" the line "I never fail" is very death guntish. This came out in 82, and that EP did gain alot of notoriety and Mercyful Fate is cited by many bands as a huge infuence, can King Diamond of been a pioneer of the death grunt? Also, on "Desecration of Souls", the intro is blatently guttural and borderline death metal vocals, though that came out in 84. I always thought the death grunt was evolved from Cronos and Tom Warrior's psuedo-guttural style, but listening to the EP and first two albums of Mercyful Fate, I think King might of been a pioneer here. What do you guys think?

Inhales
I was surprised there wasn't already a mention. And as far as tutorials on growling, just stop. It's like asking how to hit a power chord, you just don't.

Boris the Spider
It makes perfect sense to have this in here. It was removed before because it "wasn't scary" but I fail to see how that matters. This article is about a vocal style, not a philosophy. Ladysway1985 03:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that Boris the Spider belongs in the history--the guttural aspects of the vocals are surprisingly similar to modern death grunts. However, I disagree that "scariness" is irrelevant to the evolution of the death grunt.  Although some death metal bands flirt with campiness/cheesiness, I find that, in general, extreme metal is supposed to have a dark/occult/evil aura about it.  The death grunt is mostly a way to achieve this dark mood and is less often a "jokey" delivery.  For this reason, I think the ominous, processed vocals from Black Sabbath and Pink Floyd are more pertinent.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, who sings the silly vocals on Boris the spider? Is that Entwistle or Daltrey?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * that in a lot of metal it is supposed to be an obscure sound doesnt mean that grunts are by deffinition. if you listen to some technical or melodic death metal, the growling sound isnt necessarily that ominous or obscure. let me name death, dark tranquillity, atheist, some of carcass (eg. heartwork), children of bodom, maybe gojira. of course, they are either more like shrieks or they suck, but even so. theres more metal besides brutal death metal.--Lygophile 07:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what point you're making, but I'm pretty sure it's not relevant to the issue at hand: whether the death growl is supposed to be funny or not. I am primarily addressing whether a vocal affectation that a singer from the 60s used in order to sound goofy or silly can be said to be a legitimate precursor to the modern death growl.  I think it cannot.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 15:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So by your logic, blues and rock, because they aren't supposed to sound angry or extreme, are not precursors to metal? I am glad that the song is at least mentioned in this article. As is evident; whether or not it was a precursor (it being one, being a very logical conclusion) is up for discussion. Oh, and I believe it's Entwhistle that does it.Ladysway1985 05:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)