Talk:Death of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 1

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Comment: It's completely nuts to use new articles for the "Did you know?" section--they haven't had a chance to be checked for accuracy. Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy complaints from anonymous contributors
There is no such disease as "military death". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 (talk) 23:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, at the time, according to the references, that's what the doctors called it.  Majorly  (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You might be thinking of miliary fever...
 * Well, you're free to change it :)  Majorly  (talk) 23:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That was NOT Mozart's skull found by Joseph Rothmayer. For one thing, the number of teeth are wrong. And Rothmayer didn't even know where Mozart's bones were located since graves were "recycled" and re-used after 7-10 years, as was the custom at that time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What an amazing compilation of ignorance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.130.135.193 (talk) 04:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the kind words. But it would be more helpful if you gave specifics.  Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge?
Shouldn't this be merged with the main article on Mozart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mithel (talk • contribs) 03:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it's far too long, and some things are notable enough for their own article.  Majorly  (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This is a very complicated topic, with lots of mythology that needs to be taken on.  No way it would fit in the main article's space.  Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Moving the skull section to this Talk page
Hello, I've come to feel very uneasy about including the following section in the article. A number of its claims have no reference source at all, and the sources that are given seem to be amateur Web sources--which, I think, are very untrustable when we're dealing with a sensational, popular subject like this.

I think it would be fine to include a "Skull" section in this article, but only if the references sources are totally legit, by which I mean, peer-reviewed professional scholarship.

I hope other editors (notably, whoever wrote these passages) will understand.

Yours sincerely, Opus33 18:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous editor offers reference sources
Response in reference to: "Mozart was NOT buried in a "communal" grave with other bodies. He was buried in a common, typical grave, alone." This information came from an MSA article (Mozart Society of America), January, 1998, by Walther Brauneis, originally written in 1991: "Mozart was buried in a "common individual grave" (allgemeines einfaches Grab), where the word "common" (allgemein), in keeping with the usage in the Josephone era [Emperor Joseph II], cannot be equated with "joint" or "communal" (gemeinschaftlich)." Definition of the word "Allgemein" (1987): "adjective - general, common, universal." Therefore, "common" meant "general/typical/usual" rather than "shared/joint/communal" at this time, in this context. Therefore, it can be said with confidence that Mozart was buried in a "typical, plain, individual grave", possibly in a coffin, possibly without a coffin (Emporer Joseph II modified the no-coffin rule at some point, due to public protest over his no-coffin decree for 3rd class burials), as the only occupant - not a mass grave or multi-person grave. Einfach = simple/single/plain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 (talk) 09:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll try to track this down at some point. And also--references to see whether the claims made in this source have been accepted by other scholars.  That, too, is crucial. Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Walther Brauneis is a Mozart scholar - one of the best. He has an office next door to St. Michael's Church in Vienna, where a portion of the Requiem may have been performed a few days after Mozart's death.

Mozart's skull (from many sources): Constance first visited the cemetery in 1808, in search of Wolfgang's grave. The original gravedigger had died by then, and she spoke with Joseph Rothmeyer, another gravedigger. He told Constanze that he did not know the exact location of the grave. But the grave had probably been recycled several years earlier, anyway (by 1801). How he could determine the location of Mozart's body, in a recycled grave, 17 years after burial, when he was not the gravedigger, then find Mozart's skull (with the wrong number of teeth) boggles the mind. Personal communication from Brendan Cormican, Mozart expert and author: "You will probably recall that Constanze did visit the cemetery in 1808 and asked a Joseph Rothmeyer if he could say where her late husband was buried. Rothmeyer could not help but the irony is that we now can identify the spot where Rothmeyer was laid to rest." See: http://www.amazon.com/Mozarts-Death-Requiem-Investigation/dp/0951035703 (Cormican's book - out of stock) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem_(Mozart). See also "Mozart - His Character, His Work" by Alfred Einstein, 1945, Oxford University Press, page 74. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 (talk) 10:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll try to track this down at some point. Please note, however, that citing the Wikipedia as a reference source is pretty shaky--after all, it's the accuracy of the Wikipedia that's under discussion here. Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Military death: There is no such disease as "military death", just as there is no such disease as "measles Death." We do not know of what disease or condition Mozart died, but "miliary fever" was listed on the death certificate by Dr. Closset. See: http://www.auburnsymphony.com/explorethemusic_mozart.htm which is a website run by the Auburn California orchestra. From their website: "The actual cause of Mozart's death is also a matter of conjecture. His death record listed "hitziges Frieselfieber" ("severe miliary fever," referring to a rash that looks like millet-seeds), a description that does not suffice to identify the cause as it would be diagnosed in modern medicine. Dozens of theories have been proposed, including trichinosis, mercury poisoning, and rheumatic fever. The practice, common at that time, of bleeding medical patients is also cited as a contributing cause." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 (talk) 09:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "Military death" is now fixed. Re. the source you cite--I find this somewhat amusing, because it's actually plagiarized Wikipedia material!  In fact, I wrote the first sentence myself.  This was some time ago, before I reformed my editing practice with footnoting.  I'll try to footnote "miliary fever" soon, using a legitimate source.
 * Thanks, Anonymous, for offering these references. Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Nothing was plagiarized from Wikipedia. The "miliary fever" quote was taken from the website cited, using a web citation for ease of confirmation, rather than a book. Looking up citations in books takes longer. The ref to "miliary fever" is in many documents, and has been for many years - long before Wikipedia existed.
 * Hello, Anonymous, I don't think you understood. What I meant was that the author of the website http://www.auburnsymphony.com/explorethemusic_mozart.htm plagiarized the Wikipedia--their web page comes from an earlier version of our main Mozart article.  Sorry if you took my statement to be implying that you were plagiarizing.  Opus33 21:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. No problem. A better reference would be good under the circumstances. Yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.104.141 (talk) 00:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A few things. 1) Walther Brauneis is not a Mozart scholar.  He was an employee of the Österreichisches Denkmalamt (institute for the preservation of buildings and monuments) where he was responsible for "sound monuments", i.e. organs and bells.  His work on Mozart was his hobby and like a hobby it was sometimes rather flawed.  2) Brauneis has no office "next to St. Michael's church", because he retired years ago.  3) Rothmayr (not Rothmeyer) had nothing to do with Mozart's corpse, because he became gravedigger in St. Marx but in 1802.  The man who buried Mozart was a certain Simon Preuschl and the whole Rothmayr story is a total hoax, concocted by Hyrtl to raise the price of the skull.  4) Brendan Cormican's status as "Mozart expert" is entirely imaginary.  He is an amateur researcher whose countless errors regarding Mozart's death are legendary.--Suessmayr 11:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. Cormican's book Mozart's Death, Mozart's Requiem is quite a collection of misunderstandings and errors. It somehow summarizes the state of knowledge of the 1960s. A few examplary howlers:


 * reusable coffins used in Vienna ("sack burials continued until the early 19th century")
 * "all of the choral sections of the Kyrie is by Mozart"
 * "Freystaedtler (b. 1768!) had accompanied the Mozarts to Prague"
 * "Gluck was born in Bohemia"
 * "Haydn was born in Lower Austria" (and is buried in what Cormican calls the "Bergkirke")
 * Cavalieri was 33 years of age in 1793
 * Count Deym's first name is Joseph (it was Johann)
 * a Viennese suburb named "Lerchenfelder"
 * "the Baesle's illegitimate daughter was named Marianna Victoria Mozart" (her real name was Maria Josepha Streitel née Berbier),
 * "Suessmayr had a problem with alcoholism and himself" (thorough research - with a time-machine?)
 * "Puchberg was ennobled in 1822"
 * "Salieri tried to commit suicide with a razor blade"
 * "Magdalena Hofdemel was a pupil of Mozart's"
 * the discussion of the location of various Viennese inns is badly garbled and so is the presentation of Joseph II burial regulations
 * a Viennese newspaper "Wiener Stroblatt" is obviously Cormican's version of the Wiener Extrablatt
 * "Mozart's burial took place on 6 December"
 * "there was no right of perpetual ownership of a grave until the 19th century"
 * Cormican thinks that there was only one cemetery in Waehring
 * the false Rothmayr legend is repeated
 * "a gravestone for Mozart was impossible in Vienna in 1791"
 * Cormican looked for Hofdemel's burial in the St. Stephen's records (Hofdemel was interred in another graveyard)
 * "Mozart's body was carried in procession into the cathedral" (this was absolutely forbidden, the ceremony took place outside the church)
 * "a musical tribute was paid to Mozart during the Benediction" (absolutely impossible owing to the regulations of the chapel)--141.203.254.65 10:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

van Swieten

 * There is not a single source that proves that van Swieten "arrived in the middle of the night to help". Nobody had time or cared to inform him anyway in the middle of the night.--141.203.254.65 09:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

More accuracy complaints
Maynard Solomon is a theorist, is sometimes unable to translate German correctly, and his book on Mozart should not be trusted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 (talk) 23:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Mozart was NOT buried in a "communal" grave with other bodies. He was buried in a common, typical grave, alone.
 * Hi, could you please add comments to the bottom, not the top. Thanks! (And would you be interesting in creating an account?)  Majorly  (talk) 23:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The complaints just posted here don't offer a single reference source and thus, with me at least, have zero credibility. Solomon's biography is packed with footnotes referring to original documents and has a huge bibliography. Opus33 14:53, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * But how Solomon interpretes these sources and documents very often leads to irrelevant and false conclusions. Solomon for instance based a whole chapter of his book on the assumption that Mozart signed his name "Wolfgang Adam" in an application for a marriage consent.  And it's all nonsense, a basic error caused by Solomon's ignorance of German and his misunderstanding an obscure article from 1916.  There is no autograph signature "Wolfgang Adam".  The error originated from a mistake by Johann von Thorwart, who didn't know Mozart's exact name and erroneously wrote "Adam" on the application to the Obersthofmarschallamt in 1782.  Solomon never did any primary research in Vienna and his book is flawed, because like so many other biographies it's a compilation of the flawed Mozart literature.--141.203.250.65 09:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.203.254.65 (talk)

Moving to "Death of Mozart"
This seems terser, and given Mozart's fame, unambiguous. Opus33 17:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Mozart's grave
Has anyone else been to the cemetery and his grave. There is an ancient tomb stone there and an angel. The people at the cemetery claimed Mozart's body was later found and reburried. I know the tomb stone I saw and photographed was very ancient and from the early 1800's. Anyone else been there?--The-Scriptorium (talk) 11:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What you have seen is not an old tombstone, but a column and a tablet that was put on the alleged gravesite in about 1830. Mozart's body was not reburried.  You seem to have become the victim of a hoax made up by the local people ("They keep finding corpses here all the time, haha!")--Suessmayr (talk) 12:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Bad Refnote
Currently, refname "CastleOfSpirits" is bad in that it does not have any text. (See note 27) Was the full citation deleted from an earlier version? DavidRF (talk) 22:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello DavidRF, I've put in different references now (to Deutsch and Solomon) so these footnotes now lead to published material. If I recall, the web site that "Castle of Spirits" linked to was an amateur production and didn't look very reliable, so I felt it would be best not to restore it as a reference.  Thanks for spotting this.  Cheers, Opus33 16:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Age
Shouldn't the intro mention that Mozart was nearly 36 years old at his death? -- Hogne (talk) 20:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea - go ahead, you're allowed! Awien (talk) 00:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Opus33 (talk) 15:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

"Primitive"
I think its fair to say that medicine was primitive in Mozart's day. Doctors engaged in bloodletting, harming their patients; and were unaware of the role of bacteria and viruses. They also had a strong adherence to the crackpot theory of "humors". You can read more in Ruth Halliwell's book The Mozart Family. Opus33 (talk) 15:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Halliwell's expertise in history of medicine is basically non-existent.--Suessmayr (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How would you know? It's clear you haven't read her.  Opus33 (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Amadeus
The article really should have a section about the fictional version of Mozart's death in the movie Amadeus. Das Baz, aka Erudil 21:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Posthumous diagnosis
The last paragraph in this section has several problems which I believe ought to be addressed.

It is claimed that an article in PubMed suggests that Mozart's death was due to subdural hematoma. While the citation is given at the bottom of the passage, I think that it is improper to imply that the article was 'in' PubMed- an online repository for databasing scientific literature. It would appear that the article was published in the journal Neurology http://www.neurology.org/content/43/11/2400.short

Furthermore, I get the impression that much of the rest of the paragrah was simply copy-pasted from the article's abstract, with very minor or no modifications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadlese (talk • contribs) 05:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Sources please
This passage referring to Solomon is just a mess:


 * "Solomon, while noting that Mozart's biographers often left out the "crueler memories" surrounding his death, stated, "Constanze Mozart told Nissen that just before the end Mozart asked her what [his physician] Dr. Closset had said. When she answered with a soothing lie, he said, 'It isn't true,' and he was very distressed: 'I shall die, now when I am able to take care of you and the children. Ah, now I will leave you unprovided for.' And as he spoke these words, 'suddenly he vomited —it gushed out of him in an arc— it was brown, and he was dead.'"

What is the proof that Mozart was referring to Dr. Closset? Which one of the Closset brothers is being meant her? Thomas or Nikolaus? Solomon's musings on Nissen are taken as a gospel here, but most of this is pure speculation.--178.191.48.100 (talk) 06:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

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Not a pauper's grave
I've just heard a respected radio announcer broadcast YET AGAIN the erroneous information that Mozart was buried in a "pauper's grave, as was the custom at that time". What was the custom at the time was that anyone who wasn't an aristocrat was liable to be buried in a common grave, along with other people. You didn't have to be a pauper to get that treatment.

Can we say something in the article that will stop people spreading this lie about a supposed pauper's grave? I know we prefer to talk about what was the case, not what was not the case, but we do serve an educative purpose and sometimes we need to disabuse people of their misconceptions. --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. A useful source might be http://www.aproposmozart.com/Brauneis%20--%20Dies%20irae.rev.Index.pdf. Opus33 (talk) 01:54, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Opus, that's well worth reading. My knowledge has now been expanded.  "Common" did not mean "communal"; Mozart had his own individual grave, but there was no guarantee his remains would remain intact after 10 years (unlike the rich folk, whose monuments were permanent).  That's what "common" means in this context.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * On reflection, it seems to me that this whole confusion arose because someone wrote that he was buried in a common grave. That wasn't untrue, but in making this explicit, it caused people to think about it, and mostly they thought wrong. Not being an aristocrat, Mozart would only ever have been eligible for a common grave. I'm sure that would have been true of most every other musician of that era.  It's like me saying I spent my weekend breathing air. Well, yes, of course, but making mention of that unremarkable fact makes people think there was some point to saying this, when there wasn't. Can we track down where this entire issue arose, and prosecute the offenders in absentia post mortem? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Mozart's skull

 * Ten years after he was buried, the plot of land where Mozart was buried was retrenched, and Joseph Rothmayer, a sexton, retrieved the skull. Over the years, the skull passed through many hands, including those of a phrenologist.  In 1902 it ended up at Salzburg's Mozarteum, where it was on public display until 1955.
 * The skull was examined by French anthropologists from the University of Provence, who found the skull had a fracture on the left side. This could have been the result of a bad fall, possibly caused when Mozart, who had a reputation as a heavy drinker, was drunk. It is likely that Mozart was still experiencing the effects of haematoma as he was dying, and bloodletting would have had a deleterious effect on the brain, and probably caused his final stroke.
 * In 2005 new DNA testing was performed by Austria's University of Innsbruck and the US Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville, Maryland, to determine if the skull was actually Mozart's, using DNA samples from the marked graves of his grandmother and Mozart's niece. Test results were inconclusive.
 * Once again. The whole skull story, Rothmayr etc. is a hoax.  It's hopeless.--Suessmayr 08:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Skull revisited: Since there are two skulls now referred to in this Wikipedia article, some clarification about them and that they are not the same should be mentioned. And if the Rothmayer skull is (possibly) a hoax, that should be noted by reliable sources who believe that. Also, here is an article I found that reviews all the medical claims/studies surrounding Mozart's death, including the two competing skulls . There's a $15 paywall though. Does anyone feel like purchasing it? In any case, if one or both of the skulls mentioned in the Wikipedia article are likely to be hoaxes, that should be noted in this Wikipedia article. Softlavender (talk) 00:35, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Bloodletting is talked of as though it only happened on one occasion, but Hildesheimer says that up to 3 litres of blood were let during Mozart's last 12 days of life. And I'm not sure Hildesheimer asks questions about Mozart's last fortnight, just his last hours, but I did skim some of it out of boredom. Fuficius Fango (talk) 10:12, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory?
Why is this article categorised under "Conspiracy theories"? 91.109.245.190 (talk) 19:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Because of the bit about people thinking Mozart was poisoned by Salieri. Maybe not a "conspiracy", but a paranoid hypothesis, which is close enough.   Opus33 (talk)
 * No, that is legitimately a "conspiracy", and a "hypothesis", paranoid or not, is synonymous with a "theory". SociumThrone (talk) 03:40, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Reverted Vandalism
47.224.235.79 (talk) 23:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)anonymous
 * Thank you. Blatant vandalism, and the reverted IP was doing the same yesterday to another music related article. Warned. Meters (talk) 23:36, 6 September 2021 (UTC)