Talk:Deaths in December 2019

Michael Lai
While I realize that Hong Kong is part of China, should we list him as Chinese or not. Most of his life and career seems to have been in Hong Kong, and in the past we have used Hong Kong in the listing, on occasions. Most or all of the sources only mention Hong Kong, as does his article. Editrite! (talk) 00:04, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If Hong Kong is part of China, then he is Chinese, whether he (or various factions) like the idea or not. Britain gave up administration of the former colony in favour of a deal with China. Ref (chew) (do) 00:08, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected - the description has undergone a valid edit. Ref (chew) (do) 02:00, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Prince Mutaib
Surely 34 years as a cabinet minister are more important than three as a provincial governor?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 13:54, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Now he's linked to the article on the governor job,but as stated,his jobs from 1975-2009 were more important.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 02:39, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * None of his ministerial offices have bluelinks, a certain requirement here. Perhaps you would care to register an account and create them? —  Wylie pedia  @ 08:04, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Both offices were, according to his article, created to even the odds against the Sudairi Seven in a secretive deep state game of Anyone's Guess. That's not verbatim, but still. Seem largely ceremonial positions, less likely to directly govern millions as a governor might. I suggest drafting the articles in a text editor before signing up, 12. Might find they're impossible later, and then you're stuck officially working here for nothing. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:37, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Signing up for an account is something I decided not to do many years ago.His reputed fortune was I believe acquired through his piece of the action as a minister rather than his brief stint as governor.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 15:22, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I hear his dad gave him all the fishery earnings sometime before 1953, but that's from Wikipedia. The Wikileaks citation goes nowhere, at least for me. Investigating Saudi wealth is hard. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:59, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Jimmy Cavallo - Heart Failure
Why does Cavallo's cause of death keep getting deleted? It's cited in the Sun Sentinel article I initially linked. Rusted AutoParts 00:51, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I restored it again. If it is deleted again, I will make the Sun Sentinel the primary source, Euro block or not. WWGB (talk) 06:18, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's more than enough that the Sun Sentinel URL/info has been mentioned in edit summaries. The real problem solver would be educating the removing editor(s) as to their misguided actions. Ref (chew) (do) 08:04, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * To be clear, you were one of the recent removers of the COD, in your . —  Wylie pedia  @ 09:45, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I was unaware of that error, and can only apologise. Hopefully, the status quo has been returned. Ref (chew) (do) 16:40, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Roderick Strohl (December 2)
In case I missed it, where exactly is he mentioned in the Band of Brothers book and mini series articles? Editrite! (talk) 08:27, 6 December 2019 (UTC)


 * [//www.google.com/search?q= Roderick G. Strohl]. —  Wylie pedia  @ 10:07, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I found those wikilinks too, but they're not the redirect links being used. Editrite! (talk) 21:44, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Denise D'Ascenzo
Is Denise D'Ascenzo "viable" for a red link? See 2019 deaths in American television for her December 7th entry. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:52, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Please add this line at December 7: Denise D’Ascenzo, 61, Veteran American News Anchor, WFSB-TV CH3, Hartford CT, heart attack. WanderlustWilly (talk) 19:48, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Not done as she doesn't have an article here on Wikipedia. – Thjarkur (talk) 20:05, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * That's not the "standard" for inclusion on this page. As I asked above: Is Denise D'Ascenzo "viable" for a red link?  See 2019 deaths in American television for her December 7th entry.   Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:04, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Her death is reliably sourced with the genuine possibility of an article being created, so I would say it should be included. The entry can always be removed after the 30 day standard period if it remains a redlink.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 21:32, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Aye. Others have squeaked by with fewer Emmy wins. Eleven isn't chopped liver, even by daytime TV standards. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Baseline notability and redlink equals inclusion for at least 30 days. If an article (bluelink) has not been written about subject by that 30 day mark, the subject gets removed. Thus it ever was. Ref (chew) (do) 21:58, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I started a "stub" article. Here: Denise D'Ascenzo.  Thanks.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Was "Radio" a football coach?
The link to James "Radio" Kennedy is a redirect to the article about the film,which does not say that he himself coached football,only that there was a football coach who took an interest in helping him.The linked source obit basically says he hung around the football practices and mimicked the coaches.Is it fair to say that he WAS a coach?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 20:45, 15 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The source says "assistant coach, cheerleader and half time performer", although it's the only source I could find (this listing is not my work) that mentions any coaching capacity. I think a more appropriate term would be "figure" or maybe even "iconic figure". Editrite! (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * "Fanatic" or "fan". An honorary assistant coach, but in the feel-good sense, like a kid riding along with a cop or a cat providing moral support for dinner. Not at all like iconic figure Tom Landry's actual job. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:54, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

"Fan" will suffice. Editrite! (talk) 23:39, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Non humans
Under December the 9 there is a racehorse. Should horses and other (non human) animals really be on this list? Ahlabonde (talk) 09:42, 16 December 2019 (UTC)


 * See FAQ #4 at the top of this page. WWGB (talk) 09:59, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * To clarify for the editor, animals MUST already have a dedicated article written about them in Wikipedia. Else, no. Ref (chew) (do) 21:26, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * RIP and FU to Cosmo, the youngest star of Fuller House (no relation to Cosmo (dog) nor Cosmo the Spacedog), dead by surgery today. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:42, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2019
The entry for Jud Phillips incorrectly states that he was the founder of Judd Records, causing confusion about his age. In actuality his father, also Jud Phillips, was the brother of Sam Phillips and the founder of Judd Records. 199.90.35.11 (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 20:29, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You don't need a reliable source for a clear mistake. Jud Phillips Snr., brother of Sam Phillips (Sun Records), founded JUDD Records whether you like it or not - all you have to do is research it (try http://www.706unionavenue.nl/94656937 for the "Jud Phillips" story - Sam's brother Jud Snr. was born in 1921, which would make him 98 or 99 not 71). Jud Phillips Jnr., nephew of Sam Phillips (Sun Records) only did a few things in the recording industry - in fact almost too little to be considered notable. (See https://www.discogs.com/artist/4735845-Jud-Phillips-Jr for the sum total of his contribution compared to his father.) Ref (chew) (do) 20:38, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Apparently, Phillips Jnr. was a music executive for Mercury Records too, so a little more notability surfacing. Quoting from the http://www.706unionavenue.nl/94656937 source: "Jud Phillips' son Jud Jr., became an executive for Mercury Records. On July 20, 1992 Jud Phillips died in Memphis, Tennessee. He was 71 years-old." That was Snr. (JUDD Records) who passed on back in the 1990s. Ref (chew) (do) 20:49, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Finally, the mistaken source laughably claims that the 71-year-old Jud Jnr. completed six decades in the music industry. He started out around the age of 11 then? I think not. Ref (chew) (do) 20:52, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * FWIW...here is an interview with the son about the father,making clear their different identities...https://airplaytoday.com/inside/An_Interview_With_Jud_Phillps.php (The son says his career started working in the mailroom after school in the early 1960s).--12.144.5.2 (talk) 07:21, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Clearly, the reason for the confusion with the two Jud Phillips is that they were both 71 when they died. Coincidentally, they both died of cancer. Editrite! (talk) 09:06, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Roy Johnston
I see Roy Johnston has been added to this page. Are death notices acceptable, particularly as there is no evidence the person referred to is the subject of our article? Discussion also at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard regarding this. FDW777 (talk) 22:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Since there is no mention of family in his article (Roy H.W. Johnston), apart from his father, this source info tallies with that in the obituary source. Editrite! (talk) 01:08, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If irrefutable mistaken identity becomes obvious, the subject gets removed. Or corrected, as in my recent edits for Jud Phillips Jr., who was inexplicably mistaken for his already late father Jud Phillips Snr.. Ref (chew) (do) 04:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Scot Kleinendorst & Bronco Horvath
First, Scot Kleinendorst. It seems his cause of death has been in much contention. I, for one, am in favor of keeping it at "workplace accident". This is apparently seen as too vague and "misleading". It's meant to be vague for the same reasons suicide, shot, car crash, etc are vague. It's also not misleading, the reader can assume what they want, but the reference clearly states the type of workplace accident incurred. Also, "fall from crane" is too specific and actually misleading. He survived the fall, the injuries killed him. So, in this case his manner of death should be "injuries sustained from fall from crane" and I think we can all agree it's way too specific and my reasoning behind "workplace accident" as the best alternative.

Now for Bronco Horvath. The FAQ states nowhere that Twitter is simply disallowed as a source. The Bruins Alumni is a reliable source, how they communicate information is up to them. The tweet would act as a statement from the Bruins Alumni organization. For example, if the only source we had for a death was from the official social media account of the person in question, would this be disallowed? Nanerz (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I hate the term "accident" as it implies an event that may not be preventable. I very much doubt that Kleinendorst died by accident. He leant too far, his safety equipment broke, something was not maintained or whatever. The inquest will decide. We no longer use "traffic accident", not should we use "workplace accident". I also note that the fall did not kill him instantly. I'm happy with "injuries sustained in fall from crane" or similar. WWGB (talk) 03:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The term "accident" is purely a temporary description, as the safety executive for the country is investigating the exact cause. Much more preferable than making sweeping assumptions and second guessing, I think. See my edits today and yesterday. Ref (chew) (do) 04:37, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If you look up any of the articles covering this news, you will see that the family did not wish to pursue further treatment b/c the prognosis on the brain injury was very poor. Yes, he had 12 cracked ribs, lung damage, etc from the accident, but the brain injury was the fatal blow.  Which is why i edited it as brain injury caused by crane accident.   Really the whole workplace accident has no bearing on the fact that it was a brain injury that killed him.  However, we have plenty of the same folks who like traffic collisions and plane crashes- which are the same thing...an event that leads to death, not the actual cause of death which is usually blunt force trauma, asphyxiation (whether positional or otherwise) or exsanguination.  But that is really getting into the minutia which may or may not be brought to light by the ME/coroner report.  I can simply live with brain injury until something else comes around.Sunnydoo (talk) 05:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I have to disagree with the "accident" debate. If the death was unintended, it's an accident even if it's preventable. Now onto the brain injury distinction, you could very well argue that "removed from life support" as the cause of death then as, if what you say is true, he survived his injuries and was taken off life support due to the brain injury while not necessarily being the cause of death. Workplace accident acts in the same realm as car crash, plane crash, suicide, etc as it doesn't where it doesn't tell you exactly what occurred, however it does explain the actual event that took place that led to the death. If people want to find out more about the exact cause of death, they can read it in either the reference or the biography page of the person. Nanerz (talk) 06:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As also noted,the profession given gives rise to inaccurate surmises about what his "workplace" was.Brain & crane references feel more accurate.12.144.5.2 (talk) 07:15, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

The source headline says "workplace accident", so what's the problem? "Traffic collision" isn't specific and neither is "shot" nor "suicide" and so on. Consistency is key. Editrite! (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Consistency in vagueness doesn't inform.(For Erica Tishman,I'd say "head injury").--12.144.5.2 (talk) 19:31, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

That's the way the deaths page has operated, at least since I've been associated with it, rightly or wrongly. If you want more information, that's what the linked article is for, to find more detail. In the case of Erica Tishman, she doesn't have an article yet apparently, so unless one is created soon, it will be deleted after thirty days, anyway. Although it's likely that she died from a "head injury", we don't know for sure just yet, so I think "hit by falling debris" would be more appropriate, at least for the time being. "Head injury" also doesn't tell you how it was incurred. Editrite! (talk) 20:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * "workplace accident",on the other hand,tells you only circumstance and nothing about cause.A "suicide" usually specifies where known (gunshot,hanging,etc).--12.144.5.2 (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Suicide is one of the 5 manners for death in the US (the others being- homicide, accident, natural and undetermined) and is different than rulings on accidents. It is generally regarded with the method of death instead of an underlying cause- which the other 3 have.  In an accident as stated above,  it usually is blunt force trauma, exsanguination or asphyxiation that is involved as the cause of death.  Undetermined is either a ruling where the cause could not be determined or is still under investigation.  See this info  starting at page 11 for a more in depth look.Sunnydoo (talk) 19:34, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Rashied Staggie
In regards to Rashied Staggie's age:

I saw that the listing said he was 63. Where did that come from? There are some sources that say he was 58. source #1 source #2 source #3 Then there's a source that says 56. source #4 I'm tempted to go with an age of 58, since that's the age that keeps repeating, but I wanted to get feedback first. Snickers2686 (talk) 16:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Pressreader.com is the only source that I could find which says he was 63. Most of the sources, as you have found say 58 which seems a safe bet on the sheer weight of numbers. However, he had a twin brother Rashaad who died in 1996. If you could find out his age when he died, and add 23 that would confirm it (or otherwise) i.e. if he was 35 at the time. By the way, his article says he was born in 1961, which would probably make him 58 (unless he was born in the last 18 days of the year, which is unlikely). Editrite! (talk) 01:27, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

The Diarra debates
There certainly seems to be an edit war going on about the cause of death of Ibrahim Diarra.I gather multiple sources in multiple languages are saying different things that are interpreted differently by different people while which particular source is linked has changed?...anyway,why isn't it being talked out here rather than edit-warred?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * This one is complicated. There are so many conflicting claims about the cause of death, that the best option is to leave it blank for now, until we have the results of the official autopsy (if there is one). Editrite! (talk) 08:16, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Where a clear, reliable and obvious cause of death is quoted by a decent source, we should use that. Speculation and second-guessing need to be left out. Where there is confusion and difference from source to source, no matter how reliable they seem, care needs to be taken and diligence shown in removing possibly incorrect (or badly-translated) information. Our duties as editors are not to just insert the source as reported, but to make sure the truth be told or assumption withheld, especially in matters of human decease. Ref (chew) (do) 13:04, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, when I said "claims", that included sources. "Our duties are . . . to make sure the truth be told" is why I recommended waiting for more info to come through to clarify the actual cause. Unfortunately, at least one editor sees it differently, re "Cue Alzheimer's isn't a killer" above, and I quote "we publish based on verifiability, not truth". Editrite! (talk) 23:55, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As you may agree, one man's verifiability is another man's untruth. If one source is plainly wrong, then find another source to verify for true information. That's all from me in this section. Ref (chew) (do) 15:40, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Rich Rundles
Why was the original "Rich Rundles" talk entry entirely removed?

Just curious? 2600:8800:784:8F00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 23:53, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * A reliable source quotes death from "natural causes". To query that is just raising a conspiracy theory which does not belong here. WWGB (talk) 01:51, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to raise any conspiracy theories --- but just plain deleting the original entry could be interpreted by some as just that.


 * However, I put the original entry in since I find it hard to believe that someone as young as 38 could die from "natural causes."


 * That's all. 2600:8800:784:8F00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 05:04, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Such discussions belong on the Rich Rundles talk page, not on this talk page. WWGB (talk) 05:50, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

RE: Stanley J. Stein
What is a "Brazilianist"?

My online research shows only one obit that uses that term --- and only in the article's title.

From what the article says, Stein was not an expert on Brazil, but was learning all he could about the country by reading and taking classes/courses.

From the other articles in my research, Stein wrote mostly about Latin America and Iberia and was considered an expert in those areas --- especially their history (just not exclusively Brazil).

For the entry, I suggest (after his age) -- "American writer of Latin America and Iberia histories."

Thoughts? 2600:8800:784:8F00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 05:15, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Anyone who took a look at his Wikipedia article would plainly see that he was an historian (that's how it describes him). Changed. Ref (chew) (do) 07:03, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Sports for Hartnett and Cooper
"Football player" in the text implies a player of gridiron football,though those who both played and managed other kinds such as association football have at times been identified as such generally with the kind linked if necessary...but Graham Cooper played Australian rules football and Connie Hartnett Gaelic football in countries that also compete internationally in association football...Cooper even has his bio link specify that sport...their obits should link to their sports as well.And aren't their players all "footballers"?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 14:05, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Generally, we now refer to players of Association football as "footballer" - unless they are also being mentioned as notable football managers, in which case they become "football player ([clubs]) and manager ([clubs])". That's my only observation on that. Ref (chew) (do) 16:13, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly...so instead of "football player" Cooper should be a footballer while Hartnett should be a footballer while "footballer" not linked to a specific other sport indicates association football.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 06:03, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I changed the description of Martin Peters to "footabller" and it's now been changed back to "football player", with an edit description of "restore common adjective". What should it be? --Bcp67 (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Calling someone a footballer and manager is too vague. Manager of what? In such cases, we write "football player and manager" to remove vagueness. WWGB (talk) 09:47, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you, can see the difference now - "footballer" on its own is ok, but when its someone who managed as well, "football player and manager" - got it! --Bcp67 (talk) 10:15, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Georgeta Snegur, deceased on December 23
She was not a politician, only the First Lady, which can hardly be considered a politician. And she was not the First Lady of Moldova. Moldova is a province within Romania. She was the First Lady of the Republic of Moldavia. Once, these 2 were one state/province, but not anymore, they are distinct now. --Sfântul (talk) 17:16, 23 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't know where you get your info from, but all the sources that I have seen say MOLDOVA. Even your linked article for the Republic of Moldavia redirects to Moldova or Republic of Moldova! Editrite! (talk) 20:29, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * WAS a province within Romania, perhaps. The article (and the rest of the world) states that Moldova is an independent republic. It has its own football team for goodness sake. Join the modern world and, more importantly, stop selling fake news making it appear you're advancing some kind of nationalistic propaganda. Ref (chew) (do) 06:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Tessa Majors
I assume that Tessa Majors can be added in, for December 11 ... correct? I believe, at some point, we had the consensus that "piped links" were acceptable, if the deceased individual was directly named in the article title. Yes? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:56, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * What makes her notable? Editrite! (talk) 08:19, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * She has an article about her. See my above comment. Thanks.     Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:12, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * She has an article which involves her. There is a difference between that and a true bio. Piping should not happen in this instance - an article in her exact name should be set up as a redirect to the "event" article you are pointing us to. I'll let other editors decide if they want to do that and add her. Ref (chew) (do) 17:12, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I understand the difference between an article about her and an article about her death/murder. Yes, I understand that.  For the third time, now, read my original question.  It says: "I believe, at some point, we had the consensus that "piped links" were acceptable, if the deceased individual was directly named in the article title."  I will just go ahead and add her in, later.  When I have a free minute.  Thanks.     Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:18, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Maybe someone can go back and find the discussion, where we came up with this consensus. If I remember correctly ( ... I said "if" ... ), I think this occurred when Ian Brady died (May 15, 2017).  And we had an article that was pretty much about him, but not exactly (the Moors murders).  And we debated about whether or not he should be included as a "death" within the scope of this article.  I think we came up with the consensus that I mentioned above ... namely, that "piped links" were acceptable, if the deceased individual was directly named in the article title.   That's how I remember things winding down.   Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:18, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * (1) I added Tessa Majors to December 11. (2) There is already a "redirect" from Tessa Majors to Murder of Tessa Majors, as someone had advised above.  (3) How/where do I find the old archives of this Talk Page?  I looked around, and I was not able to find anything anywhere.  I'd like to find that discussion about Ian Brady (or whichever individual it was) that led to the consensus I described above.  Thanks.     Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:30, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Here is it: Talk:Deaths in 2017/Archive 1. Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:33, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Discussion regarding Brady was in May 2017; previous discussions regarding similar listings included one from June–July 2014 and another in August 2014, as well as the more recent one linked immediately above. Vycl1994 (talk) 19:44, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks. So, yes, I re-read all of those links again.  Thanks.  So, it appears, my recollection and my understanding of the situation were indeed correct.  Namely, that "piped links" are acceptable, if the deceased individual is directly named within the article's title.  Therefore, the Murder of Tessa Majors -- or the (now) re-named Death of Tessa Majors -- makes the named individual, Tessa Majors, eligible for inclusion on this list.  Thanks.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:54, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That's redirect, rather than pipe. WWGB (talk) 23:24, 26 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Semantics, I guess? I call this --->   Tessa Majors  <--- a "piped link".  No?   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:57, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, but  Tessa Majors  is what should be listed here. This list only pipes when disambiguation or honorifics are needed, for the same reason simple citations are used, to cut down on page load times. Vycl1994 (talk) 15:41, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * OK. Thanks.  I did not know that.  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:51, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I did try saying, above, either use an existing redirect in preference to piping, or consider creating one (I regularly do that). Ref (chew) (do) 23:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Status of Ari Behn
He was married to and divorced from a princess.He never had a royal title.At different times he has been described as a former royal,his relationship not mentioned,and now most recently as a royal.I don't think his children by the princess,though in the line of succession,have titles.I think that if his royal links are mentioned,even though they are what made him famous,it should be made clear that he was (and ceased to be) an in-law,not blood.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 08:30, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, title or not, he was a member of the royal family plain and simple. As Mike Tindall is a member of the British royal family by his marriage to Zara Phillips, who has no title either. Ref (chew) (do) 08:42, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Are there explicit definitions of members of the family?...as in the recent loss of royal styles of the children of Prince Carl Philip of Sweden and of his younger sister?(They kept titles but are no longer "royal family",I believe).--12.144.5.2 (talk) 09:09, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The children of Prince Carl Philip and of Princess Madeleine are still members of the Swedish Royal Family, but not of the Swedish Royal House. They do not have the title HRH anymore, just Prince/Princess. --Marbe166 (talk) 10:11, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

By direct blood relation; by marriage; even by adoption. Being part of a royal family is no different to being a part of any other family, in the eyes of the laws of most lands. Titles mean nothing, as in the case of the Queen's blood relative already given as an example - her grandaughter Zara Phillips (daughter of the Queen's daughter Princess Anne, herself still 13th in line to the throne). She has no title of any kind, yet is a firm part of the British royal family and always will be. Royal family and "royal house", as just mentioned, are two different things, and there is no claim here that Ari Behn is or was part of the royal house of that country. Ref (chew) (do) 14:37, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

The idea of "not inherited" has disqualified many mothers, brothers and widows from a mention of their famous flock lately. If a royal family is indeed just a family, an ex-husband is no different in having to rest on his own laurels. Then again, Christmas is an arguably special time of year for familiar exceptions. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Relevance is no other one way or another. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DA:CF15:F482:3151:67B7:F9E3:836F (talk) 22:32, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Exactly what do that bunch of words put together mean? It's cryptic, and for some reason I can't figure out what you are saying. Ref (chew) (do) 04:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC)


 * In Norway, the definition of the Royal family is the monarch with spouse, the monarch's siblings with spouses, the monarch's children with spouses (where Ari Behn could be found), the monarch's grandchildren with spouses and so on. The Royal house is the ruling monarch with spouse, and the immediate line of succession with spouses (Harald, Sonja, Haakon, Mette-Marit and Ingrid Alexandra). Nukualofa (talk) 04:53, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Kelly Fraser
I see another edit war here over whether she should be described as merely "Canadian".It appears that she performed Inuit music and largely in the Inuit language and was nominated for awards for that genre of music...the reference is not just to her ethnicity(which may not be pure as she shares a surname with the Frasers of Saltoun and Lovat).Is it that different from calling some UK people "Scottish" etc?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 04:28, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's not a genre, they just get their own category because competing with English pop would doom them in the general Canadian scene. The language is the difference, "Inuktitut singer" could get that across. We didn't call the French singer Monique Leyrac anything special, though (Quebec being Canada's Scotland). InedibleHulk (talk) 04:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If you notice her article, it says Inuit ACTIVIST. That means she would self identify as Inuit not Canadian, but b/c of the rules here, both get listed.  This is one of the indigenous rules.  Someone has changed to a new article, but there is a better quote here- "”She believes that contemporary music in Inuktitut will increase pride in Inuit identity. By sharing her own personal struggles, Kelly brings hope to Indigenous youth who are struggling like she has."

Thats what makes her Inuit. So too long story short- Canadian Inuit is how she should be listed...Country and Autonomous region which in this case is her tribe.Sunnydoo (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't dispute her race or its particular struggles. But if you're active through songwriting, you're a songwriter, not an activist. Plenty of writers appeal to and inspire their own, be they black, white, red, yellow or Juggalo. There are whole trees of subgenres promoting people power. Maybe Buffy Ste. Marie, Jeff Foxworthy or Ice T has made it "their thing", but someone mostly known for translating radio stuff isn't quite there yet. In any case, Leyrac was just as officially Quebecois, by subnation rules. And the Inuit aren't technically a tribe (but your point remains). InedibleHulk (talk) 06:09, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * My 2c. We include culture/tribe/race/language etc when the deceased is known for being a writer/activist/singer/linguist in that area. When Cher can no longer turn back time, we won't describe her as an American Cherokee singer. WWGB (talk) 06:31, December 27, 2019 (UTC)
 * And how do we tell if a singer is known for being in a racial area? InedibleHulk (talk) 09:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Usually there is either a body of work or self evidence.  In this case, there are more than a few articles talking about her and the things she did for her people as well as the quote mentioned above.  Another good example in the US as far as indigenous peoples was Russell Means the actor.  And its not really a race/culture thing...it can be an oppressed people thing which would include such locales as the Six Counties in Ireland and Hong Kong/Tibet for China.  The criteria for me personally is whether you are doing a disservice to the person by not mentioning their contribution or even causing offense to them by declaring them something they were not and stood against.  Another good point of reference is the person's Wiki article.  Usually the editors there have a closer opinion than just the general ones we form on fly bys.  Fraser's article has her listed as Canadian Inuk in her tag line.Sunnydoo (talk) 21:18, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Currie did things for his people in Prince George's County, Maryland, one of the richest black counties in the country, but we don't call him African-American. Jones was all about those civil rights after seeing white-on-black bullshit, as his article describes, but no mention of his tribe's colour. Don Imus crossed over to TV fame specifically by insulting black women as a white man, but do we call him white?
 * Compared to those three, Fraser hoping "her people" would appreciate her album on a personal level isn't much at all. There's no indication any Inuit actually were inspired or otherwise affected. She just believed they might be (and yes, they might be). It's a dedication in the sense most albums have, a service to fans, but not the sort of contribution one makes through perseverance and commitment to a cause. Her main contribution was in Inuktitut language songs. Saying so simply adequately conveys her race at the same time, because no other oppressed people use that language for anything.
 * I think I agree with the criteria, but applying them to this case, I just don't see the need to make an exception to the "plain old citizenship" standard. But I won't revert her entry if someone wants to change it. I'll just quietly find it (not the editor) a bit casually racist. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:10, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The problem with your analogy is that Prince George County is a settled part of the US. Indigenous tribes have special status in the US and Canada.  In the US for example local and federal police are not allowed onto any Reservation.  Any requests made to the Indian tribes have to go through the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the US Senate who are responsible for negotiations.  It is on a whole different level of things just like the other examples I mentioned.  I think you are getting to wrapped up in the racial aspect and need to look at it from the other angle.  The other thing is that it isnt about the result.  That would imply a judgement on our part.  Its about the effort and that effort being noticed...as the first two articles indicated that were posted before the Euro guys flipped them over to a worldwide copy.  This is the Guardian cite for example  that relates some of the things she was doing for activism.Sunnydoo (talk) 04:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, reservations exist in Canada, too. So do petitions, marches, meetings, speeches, strikes, road closures, letter campaigns, vandalism, sabotage, assassination, kidnapping, arrests, hunger strikes, election campaigns, pointed suicides and whatever else one traditionally associates with social activism. But that Guardian articles notes none of it (also Nunavut). Says she wrote/translated songs in Inuktitut, sang them in a studio and then woke music reviewers with a press blurb about why her target audience might want to check out her sophomore effort. Remember, Gord Downie and Secret Path were hot at the time, so a mention of residential schools made sense, commercially as well as culturally. Did you catch how she died in Winnipeg, a city very much settled by whites and reds alike, akin to PG County with its blacks and whites? She was Inuit by subnationality, but there's no indication she rejected her broader Canadian status, or ever incited rebellion. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:27, 29 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The fourth paragraph explains her or her producer's vision of the pop album or political advocacy better than I should try. Inuktitut and throat-singing are key, but appropriating the same cultural elements Rihanna's producer had to steal from Shakira's producer (droning drumlike noises and English) were crucial to this ancient groove's survival as a posthumous release.
 * Is it wrong that English rules in Canada, despite a hundred other languages being born here? Yes. But it happened. It's happening in China and India, too, to name but a few places. If a poor girl can rise up from the north to fit in down south, then die young and be heard even beyond the Peace Bridge (hell, across both oceans), simply by using English, is it right to say the significant language in her career was the one proven unviable in her chosen field? I think that's a tough question.
 * Any objection to "Canadian English-Inuktitut pop singer and songwriter"? InedibleHulk (talk) 12:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, English is unnecessary. WWGB (talk) 12:17, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * "Translator" float your boat, mon frere? InedibleHulk (talk) 12:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Since you took three minutes with the hard question, I'm taking your eighteen minutes on this easy one as a "Whatever". InedibleHulk (talk) 12:40, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry - I've read all of the above (and her article), and I can't see "translator" anywhere. That would of course be notability through a paid occupation, not just converting one set of lyrics into another language. That's just part of songwriting. Ref (chew) (do) 18:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As a songwriter, I assure you I have never translated a set of lyrics into another language. It would be too difficult to retain the rhythm and rhyme, while getting across the same meaning. Plenty of great European bands remain big in Europe precisely because their English lyrics make far less sense and sound weird trying. I'd give her credit, in a perfect world. She may have only made YouTube money from her retelling of "Diamonds", but we know it was enough to launch her careeer and we know people know the original. What did Jean Blot ever translate, as part of his normal writing, that people should remember him as a translator? It's cool, though. Cheers to partying like the worst of the last twenty years in music is finally over! InedibleHulk (talk) 13:43, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Country of birth
I see that an editor is calling Jack Garfein "Ukrainian born". The problem is that when he was born (which is all we should be interested in), it was in Czechoslovakia. Although it's part of the Ukraine now, you can't rewrite history. I'm sure that he wouldn't be too impressed to know, if he was still alive, that he wasn't really born in Czechoslovakia at all! Editrite! (talk) 01:25, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Elisabeth Sifton (December 13)
Where exactly is Elisabeth Sifton mentioned in the redirect articles? Editrite! (talk) 23:48, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Nowhere. Redirect now reduced to a holding page, for that reason. Ref (chew) (do) 00:11, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
 * And reverted back by someone, as you can't have a blank page. Even if it redirects to a nonsense location. So I've redirected it to Serenity Prayer, an article with which subject matter she was closely involved and had some influence over. Ref (chew) (do) 17:46, 4 January 2020 (UTC)