Talk:Deaths in November 2015

Jihadi John / Mohammed Enwazi
I notice that Jihadi John (or Mohammed Enwazi) has not been added to the list. Sources state that his death is 99% certain. Must we really be so pedantic as to not include his death on here? --Laughingboy2015 (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2015 (UTC)


 * If by "pedantic", you're speaking of "high degree of certainty", then yes. But all is not lost as he has been added, just not as JJ . —  Wylie pedia  00:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps "high degree" is simply British English for "99%"? In any case, he didn't die by being "reported killed". That only works in cartoons. We've had similarly uncertain, albeit less famous, drone strike deaths (usually a "second-in-command") listed here in the last few months, and haven't tiptoed around them. 99%/high is certain enough for Wikipedia, I think. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, so Jihadi John has been added to the deaths section now. Changing the subject here, what about John Cantlie? When was the last time he was heard from? Why is he not listed on his own page as being in "Possibly living people" instead of "Living people" as he may well actually be dead already? If he's a hostage and hasn't been heard from in a while, there is a considerable possibility he is already dead.--Laughingboy2015 (talk) 09:40, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * We tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, until reported otherwise with at least a "fairly high degree" (67%, maybe) of certainty. For all we really know, J.D. Salinger was killed decades ago. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * He should be listed under his actual name. The nickname is controversial and offensive, and has in fact been banned in its entirety from the local newspapers here in London (where the Emwazi family lived): "it is altogether too playful, given the shocking images we’ve seen in our national newspapers, on television screens and most graphically of all, on the internet". Further, the identification of Emwazi with the individual is not entirely certain. By analogy, when William Joyce was hanged, it would not have been appropriate to put him in the list as 'Lord Haw-Haw' even if his story had been under that article title, because the nickname was used for him and for others. In this case the article covers the nickname and mentions others speculated as being behind it, so it is not actually Emwazi's biography but simply an article which contains it. Under those circumstances the 'use article names' rule doesn't apply. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:41, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * That's from the local newspapers here in Hampstead. And only the Archant weeklies. There seems to be one of those. While the alliteration is admittedly a bit fun, the "Jihadi" part isn't so cute. If it were, the massive global scaremongering sector of the press wouldn't have cared for it. Nor would the US Army, who also officially billed him as a "human animal", whatever that's supposed to mean. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:47, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a chain covering a wide area of North London. And their decision not to use the nickname was widely endorsed. There may be a transatlantic split on this as the Emwazi family never lived in the USA, so there are vanishingly few people in the USA who knew Mohammed Emwazi before he went to Syria, whereas there are people around where I live who did. I don't think the point about the US Army goes anywhere and as far as I'm concerned there are 7 billion human animals. Sam Blacketer (talk) 13:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Never lived in a lot of places. Many huge British sources regularly use "Jihadi John", often without "the quotes". Same with the other English-speaking countries. Elsewhere, millions of animals read about "Jihadista John" and ""John le djihadiste". It may have started in the US, but it's since gone much wider than North London. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * There is a long-standing tradition on this page to use the article name to refer to the deceased. For example, on October 13, we reported the death of Skatemaster Tate, not using his birth name Gerry Hurtado. In the interest of consistency, we must list this person as Jihadi John. If any editor feels strongly on this matter, they should seek to rename the Jihadi John page to Mohammed Emwazi. WWGB (talk) 11:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Are you really considering a nickname given to an unidentified murdering propagandist the equal of the stage name of a professional entertainer? The two situations have absolutely nothing in common. Sam Blacketer (talk) 13:52, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Both cases are examples of WP:COMMONNAME, hence that is how we report. WWGB (talk) 02:23, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

BUT it is not correct to introduce a text name (Mohammed Emwazi) as the lead-in, without linking it. That is another "long-standing tradition" you know exists. The best answer would be to go with "Jihadi John" as the lead-in linked name, and bracket the following: "(given name Mohammed Emwazi)" in just text. Whatever is chosen, lead-in names never stay unlinked (and please note it is Emwazi not Enwazi!). Ref (chew) (do) 14:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Firstly, anyone objecting to his nickname being the title of his article needs to take the discussion to his article. Secondly, despite the subject's alleged history, let's keep things civil here. Thirdly, out of respect to those who may be offended with the nickname, I would support using the given name as the entry. However, some casual visitors who live under a rock might need the nickname somewhere to make the connection. —  Wylie pedia  14:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If people are offended, then sorry, that's really their problem. Jihadi John is his most common name and that's how he was referred to, and thus that is his article name. I doubt an article name change would go through due to the common use of his nickname instead. Rusted AutoParts 14:49, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Again the name of the person who died has been removed. This is a stupid edit. I have half a mind to remove the entry entirely on the grounds that nobody by that name died on that day. Some users are putting heavy strain on the limits of 'comment on edits not on editors'. Please include the man's actual name. Please. Pretty please. Sam Blacketer (talk) 16:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * We go by article name, dumbass. That's been the way it's been done for a long time. Rusted AutoParts 16:35, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * A number of editors, including me, are bemused by the bizarre insistence of other editors on implementing (non-existent) "rules" over this, when it is plainly obvious that there would be no disbenefit, and plenty of benefits, in adding the words "(given name Mohammed Emwazi)" after the words "Jihadi John".   Jihadi John was not his name - it's a stupid nickname popularised by sensationalist media.  We are an encyclopedia.  And WP:AGF applies, obviously.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * We go by article name. And it's really not difficult to click on the link to find his real name. Unless you're lazy, then I have no sympathy. Rusted AutoParts 17:09, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You can't please all the people all the time. If you were to go with "Mohammed Emwazi" as the Wikilinked lead name, the outraged would cry 'too much respect to his creed' (apart from any article naming convention). If you go with the current styling of nickname "Jihadi John" (in line with current article naming convention), we have the (as is already apparent) offended folk who say 'not enough respect to his family'. No winners on this particular subject, nor those of a similar vein. 86.113.142.39 (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * So, have both names, with only one linked - as several of us have suggested. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

A Google search for Mohammed Emwazi scores about 1.8 million hits. A search for Jihadi John scores about 11 million. It is clear which name satisfies the policy WP:COMMONNAME. So that is the name we use. We do not also publish "LESSCOMMONNAME" (real name) for every actor, DJ, rapper and gangster who has a better-known alternative name. WWGB (talk) 23:40, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

death of flutie dad precipitated death of his mom

 * death of flutie dad precipitated death of his mom- why has that not been added? http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14163864/former-nfl-quarterback-doug-flutie-parents-die-same-day it might even be red linked for now but that does not change the fact that someone might write up the wiki to unred link it before 30 days on wiki --68.231.26.111 (talk) 01:32, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a sad story but notability is not inherited, which is probably why they haven't been added. I don't see any notability outside of them being his parents. Connormah (talk) 01:41, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a newspaper, 68.231.26.111 - see WP:NOTNP. That would have been the only premise under which you would even think that a "story" such as this could appear in a 'Deaths' list. Even notable individuals who have died during an infamous "event", such as the Paris attacks or the Tunisian beach shootings, both of which were deemed important enough to warrant their own Wikipedia articles, have to be listed individually within a heading on this page, and have to have a starting point of believability as possible notable persons. Tragic though the Flutie story is, it can't qualify. Ref (chew) (do) 12:06, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

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