Talk:Deaths in November 2019

Laurel Griggs
Griggs' listing was removed due to notability issues, but her roles in Broadway shows Cat on a Hot Tin Roof alongside Scarlett Johansson, and 17 months in Once, as well as minor roles in Woody Allen's Café Society (2016 film) and TV show Saturday Night Live, should indeed make her notable enough for this list. Thoughts? Nukualofa (talk) 23:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)


 * If she has the potential to satisfy WP:NACTOR then her listing should be restored. WWGB (talk) 23:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Died at age 13, debuted at age 6 in Cat, and had acted ever since, I would call that worthy of an entry here. As stated in a different argument above, let the Wikiworld debate over her mainspace article. —  Wylie pedia  @ 00:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

COD
According to reports on the wider internet, she died from an asthma attack. Please be aware that asthma alone is not a fatal condition. Asthma, especially a severe attack such as she suffered, constricts breathing so overwhelmingly that prolonged episodes can cause a cardiac arrest, and that would most probably be the cause of her death, rather than just "asthma" or "asthma attack". However, I haven't removed the cause in either her article or the Deaths page, nor altered it. Ref (chew) (do) 06:49, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Cardiac arrest is not a recognized cause of death in the US- which is where this death occurred. It is a terminal event that leads to death, which is not the same thing.  See here for more details specifically Line 32 part 1 . Regards. Sunnydoo (talk) 05:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, it still puts descriptions of death by asthma and asthma attack on shaky ground. Plus, if you don't reverse a cardiac arrest, you're dead. Ref (chew) (do) 08:33, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I think this is an issue that confuses a lot of editors. Yes people die from plane crashes, traffic collisions, cardiac arrest, etc.  but those arent really causes of deaths- they are all terminal events.  Usually it is blunt force trauma, smoke inhalation or exsanguination or something else, which is the true cause of death.  I guess we just pretend here that the real CoD doesnt really matter, and that is OK to some extent as there is something to be said for the detail in the death.  However Asthma is a disease like cancer or diabetes. It has a root cause based in the immune system response and while a terminal event may end it, it nevertheless is the cause of death being a disease.  In the US with more people being made aware of these things and with inhalers being made widely available now, the death rate for asthma is now down to 10 per million in the US- which equates to around 3000 people per year- even though allergic responses of all types are surging.  .Sunnydoo (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Your earlier comment is based on official U.S. government instructions on how to fill out a death certificate by medical professionals. As far as I know, Wikipedians are not bound by such rigid guidelines, and how many Wikipedians are medical professionals, anyway. As far as I can see, there are four possibilities in this case for cause of death. The one that has been used so far, "massive asthma attack" as quoted by her grandfather, complications from an asthma attack (which may be the closest) or cardiac arrest, all of which are mentioned in the article sources. Editrite! (talk) 21:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * If the one used so far is plain "asthma attack", I'll take it. If not, consider it feasible. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:32, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * My preferred in response is complications from asthma...but many editors dont like that word complications b/c they feel it isnt specific enough. As for what is official and not...that is the basis that the ME's and coroners in the US use to relate manner of death to the public and the CDC.  This is the information that you can get from them with a FOIA request.  When the press reports it, its those press reports we use to update the record with.  No one is deciding what guidelines we are using and your medical expertise is not required.  It is there in the report from the newspaper which in this case clearly stated that the ME ruled the death was caused by Asthma.Sunnydoo (talk) 23:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Are there other deadly complications from asthma aside from the so-called attacks? If so, vague could work. In either case, I agree that we can learn useful things from experts without playing by their rules, as even ethical journalists prove every day. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * From reading the reports that the family provided of what happened (which was covered in another page 6 article related by her grandfather), she was a known asthmatic and had been having trouble. That probably means she would have had an inhaler and pills to stop attacks.  The trouble is with a severe asthmatic attack, the inhaler doesnt always 100% work- which is a complication of the condition.  Even when you get to the ER alive, it can be too late for simpler measures like the bronchodilators to more extreme forms of steroids and epinephrine to work.Sunnydoo (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * And really anaphylaxis is the same way. Similar allergic reaction to asthma that attacks breathing in the throat instead of the bronchioles.  Do you call it anaphylaxis or anaphylactic shock?  Same thing as asthma and asthma attack...different wording.Sunnydoo (talk) 03:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd say the acute event form does the damage, but would understand someone stepping back and blaming the overall disease. Same with liver failure and cirrhosis. But the idea of a reaction becoming a complication of its own weaker self when it crosses a treatability line is a bit hard to clap for, or even nod at. If it's the sort of emergency that lands a name here, the catastrophic/massive/severe part is inherently characteristic of the heart attack/hanging/traffic collision part, not a subsequent occurence. Unless there's a specific medical term for an asthma attack's "next level", I pass on drawing a line between those two. Just after underlying asthma. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:50, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Ryan Costello (baseball), delete or not?
I have voted to delete Costello's article in the AfD, but...if he IS listed here, the highlight of his career was his partial season with the Pensacola Blue Wahoos,not the lower-ranked Fort Myers. (So when can we reopen deletion discussion for Ellie Soutter, an athlete known only for juvenile-age-competition success who committed suicide on her 18th birthday?) --12.144.5.2 (talk) 16:53, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The first point regarding the higher-ranked team is now ✅ at his entry here - the second point, or question, is not an issue for here but one to be discussed within the article deletion part of Wikipedia. Ref (chew) (do) 17:21, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Ruckelshaus credits
Surely being Deputy Attorney General of the United States of America is more notable than serving in the Indiana State House?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 01:02, 28 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I would have also thought that a senior Federal official "trumps" (if you'll pardon the pun), a state politician. How do others feel? Editrite! (talk) 08:26, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The Saturday Night Massacre (which ended his Deputy AG tenure) is probably what he's best known for...what did he do in the Indiana House?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 23:23, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Jonathan Miller
Listed as "humourist and TV presenter, theatre and opera director and doctor", whatever happened to the Rule of Three? —  Wylie pedia  @ 04:35, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * With luck, it finally received deserved skepticism rather than blind enforcement? -- 12.144.5.2 (talk) 05:05, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Is luck real? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:53, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

The source used describes him as a "theatre director, writer and actor". Editrite! (talk) 08:18, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Someone can take part in more than three notable events, and that's where decisions are made by consensus (hopefully) as to the three most notable for inclusion. When someone is equally notable for "being" four or more "things", what can you do? You have to void the Ro3 for such rare occurrences. (Miller was a truly multi-talented person - the only contentious part would be the "doctor" description, which might be removed because, like Graham Chapman, he never practised fully in that sphere, never mind his qualifying.) Ref (chew) (do) 20:05, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with cutting "doctor"; and "theatre director" can cover opera, as well, just as stage actor can mean plays or musicals. —  Wylie pedia  @ 23:01, 28 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Good - then English humourist (Beyond the Fringe), TV presenter, and theatre director - it is. Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:08, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Consensus wins again. Ref (chew) (do) 23:16, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Pat Sullivan - Is mention of pro teams necessary?
On the November 30th death notice for Pat Sullivan, there are references to the Atlanta Falcons and Washington Redskins pro football teams. While descriptions of his pro career with Atlanta and Washington are appropriate on Sullivan's Wikipedia bio, I would respectfully argue that his collegiate playing career shined much brighter than did his pro career. Therefore, it should be at the least considered that the mentions of Washington and Atlanta on the Deaths page are not necessary, and that the wiki-links for them should be removed.

Thanx-A-Lot, Fgf2007 (talk) 20:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Top level achievements always trump those of a lower level in earlier careers. Ref (chew) (do) 00:06, 2 December 2019 (UTC)


 * His college coaching career at Samford was as long as his pseudo-professional playing career (no stats at all online for his Redskins brevity), so I think his notability as coach also needs mentioned (as the third, rather than the 'Skins). —  Wylie pedia  @ 01:16, 2 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Sullivan's professional playing career was never the success that his college playing career was. His collegiate coaching career produced more losing seasons than winning ones, albeit by small margins. In Sullivan's case, the 3-year period of 1969 to 1971 at Auburn outshined anything that followed. That's all I'll say about this. Thank You. Fgf2007 (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The current link that just says "Hall of Fame" will be misinterpreted by readers...he was in the College,not NFL,HoF.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 14:35, 2 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Which is why it's bluelinked if there is any confusion, as most notable HoFs are. —  Wylie pedia  @ 07:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)


 * That the bluelink says nothing but "Hall of Fame" is what makes people confused as to what it will lead to.(I think the three words by themselves should be reserved for the Hall of Fame for Great Americans,since they invented the HoF concept and everyone else is a copycat).--12.144.5.2 (talk) 15:20, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * All great halls are just longhouse ripoffs, and finding out which is which is fun. In an edutainment way. Kind of. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:09, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As long as the important thing goes first or last, I don't think mixing pro and collegiate hurts. Mixing teams from different sports still seems wrong. Call me old-fashioned. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:44, 3 December 2019 (UTC)