Talk:Deaths in September 2011

Yaroslavl plane crash victims
Pavol Demitra is listed twice, and Alexander Galimov is reported to have survived the crash. --David7581 (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I see this has been cleaned up, but I am now seeing reports that Galimov died at the hospital, so he can be re-listed. --David7581 (talk) 15:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No. There are conflicting reports for many players, and none should be added without specific, definitive, confirmation.  I added Demitra only because his agent specifically stated he had died.  There is no official confirmation on anyone else, so far as I know. Resolute 15:29, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Victims teams
DjSasso has repeatedly failed to grasp the reason why i insist on two examples. As on my edit summary, if someone played for the Capitals, Blues, Ducks, Predators and Islanders, would you submit them all? That would take up space. I added two examples to several of the deceased players to signify parts of their lengthy or unfortunately short careers. I also fail to see how childishly removing these examples because i didn't let you have your way would solve ANYTHING. Dj, i respect you, but please understand my reasoning. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 19:09 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Except they are not provided as examples, they are provided in a list form. A person has no way of knowing looking at them that they are just examples. What you are doing is tricking the editor. Yes I would list all four teams if a player played on four teams. And in the rare case that a player played on a lot of teams yes I would accept that the odd entry might be long. Or I wouldn't list any at all and allow the reader to click on the link to the article about the person to find out for themselves. But to pick and choose examples is by the very definition point of view and should not be done. I would also note it has nothing to do with having my way. There is no inbetween with NPOV which is our most important policy. You either have to have all or nothing so that you don't present a bias. You didn't like the all option so I then presented the none option. -DJSasso (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * With the link, this is how adding all their teams would result:


 * Ray Skinner, 52, American ice hockey player (Washington Capitals, Anaheim Ducks, St. Louis Blues, Nashville Predators, Columbus Blue Jackets), brain hemorrhage. that is excessively detailed, so excuse me for trying to avoid that.

Also, tricking? So, for example, Wade Belak didn't play for the Toronto Maple Leafs? Gee, i am sure stunned! Rusted AutoParts (talk) 19:17 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The only real problem I have here is that they were all Lokomotiv players. We're not talking about an aged veteran who dies at 75 and was best known as a Maple Leaf.  In most cases, they were active, and so the most representative example was their current team.  The rest is superfluous.  There is also a bit of a POV/Bias issue, as why only list a couple teams for former NHLers? Why not the rest? Resolute 19:20, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That isn't very long....takes up not even half the width of my screen. But an example of the bias introduced is this edit where you changed a team for no reason. You can't say it was because he is more identified with that team for example because he actually played for the team you removed longer. Its these sorts of issues that the all or none seeks to avoid. As to Resolute I would agree with just listing Lokomotiv since they were active with that team. -DJSasso (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it's obvious they all played for Lokomotiv, it's in the part that says Notable ice hockey people killed in the 2011 Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash, i was merely submitting prior teams so we don't have to add Lokomotiv Yaroslavl to each entry. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 19:22 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S., im not biased, i just tend to remove duplicates. Colorado Avalanche was submitted as an example for Karlis Skrastins. I have OCD, so things like that tend to make me alter them. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 19:24 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Degree of detailing of the crash victims' background
I've been trying to get the death list of the crash victims to look a bit more filled out, but have been reverted without any discussion.

I honestly think the list looks awkwardly thin in its present state, and think it should be a bit more fleshed out.

In the edit summary of his revert, BurienBomber asked "Positions played for team sport players are never listed here. Why would this be an exception?"

Why? Three are reasons.
 * 1) No where else is it said that a person is just "Japanese" or "French" or "Chinese" or "American". Everywhere else it is said "America Nobel laureate", "French painter", "Norwegian author", etc. Let me ask this question: Why would this be an exception?
 * 2) It does look awkwardly thin with just the name, age and nationality.
 * 3) Take a look at Deaths in April 2010. It lists every notable victim of the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash with a short description – not just name, age and nationality.

HandsomeFella (talk) 08:09, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Looking "awkwardly thin" is never a good reason to go against established consensus. Recent deaths always report five facts: name, age, nationality, reason for notability and a reference. In the case of the ice hockey disaster, the last two facts are the same for every person: same notability, same reference, so that information is reported in the stem of the notice and not pointlessly repeated for every player. In short, the current format reports all the necessary facts, so it is consistent and correct. The only alternatiive is to add "ice hockey player" beside every name ad nauseum. That would just look, well, awkwardly bloated. The Polish article is quite different: the deceased all had different claims to notability. WWGB (talk) 09:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It would be better if you addressed my latest attempt, using their role, specifically to avoid ad nauseam, as the later edit shows that I accepted that point. Second, the deceased in Poland/Russia did not all have different claims to notability; nine of them have exactly the same claim: "member of the Sejm", for instance.


 * As this page is now, it's hard to make out who's what in the list. McCrimmon, fine, few people play hockey on the elite level at 52, so he must be one of the coaches. But who's the other (or the others)? Well, Karpovtsev maybe, at 41 – but Chris Chelios played the better part of his forties. Or is the expression in plural by mistake? Who knows?


 * HandsomeFella (talk) 12:12, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Good point, coaches added. Regards, WWGB (talk) 12:26, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I initially added positions myself on the same argument - it just looked awkward as presented. Why go against consensus? Because this is an unusual situation.  My thinking was that adding the player positions in this case both fleshed out an entry that truncated suddenly, and gave added depth to the scope of the devastation to the team.  But, overall, meh. Resolute 15:08, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, whatever. Thanks for the support, though. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Saw that Olympic and World Championship Gold medalists are indicated on the Locomotiv player list. Perhaps also worth noting then are those that are also Stanley Cup Winners?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.202.248.68 (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:58, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Russian air accident casualties
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on something i've thought of. Using the film United 93 as an example, one section of the page has "Awards and Nominations". In order to view it, you must click on the [show] option. Would this be an ideal thing for the casualties list? Please give honest opinions. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 0:01 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Per WP:COLLAPSE you aren't supposed to hide article content behind a collapsible box. -DJSasso (talk) 00:05, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The ice hockey players and coaches are dead, notable and belong here. Why would you want to hide their names? WWGB (talk) 00:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't want to hide them persay, i thought that to save space or something. Oh well, forget it. My intentions were obviously bad again. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 0:55 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No, your intentions are good, but there isn't really a problem with showing the names as an expanded list. Suggestions are always welcome, even if they get mercilessly shot down.  ;) Resolute 01:14, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

John P. Carroll
I understand that this dog was relatively famous, however is this page the place for the deaths of animals as well as humans? Akjar13 (talk) 15:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yup, as long as the said animal is deemed notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, prior to their demise. It therefore probably rules out your late lamented guinea pig.  Sorry, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:26, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This is an unending unwinnable fight. A lot of people think animals should go. Williamb (talk) 20:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? Could you provide a link to a discussion where "a lot of people" have expressed the opinion that it is not appropriate to include the deaths of notable animals with corresponding Wikipedia articles? --Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 20:18, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you Derek for defining how this works, and sadly my guinea pig died 14 years ago and is not recent anyway. Akjar13 (talk) 20:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Conflict on Vesta Williams' age at time of death
The link near Vesta Williams under 22 says she was 48. An ABC News link at her article says she was 53. Which is it? B-Machine (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * According to "U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1" at www.ancestry.com we have the following:
 * Name - Mary Vesta Williams -  with a birth date of 1 Sep 1959 Topcardi (talk) 23:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Anwar Al-Awlaki
Apparently the Yemeni Defense Ministry says he's been killed and at least one major news organization (CNN) is running the story: http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/30/world/africa/yemen-radical-cleric/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.228.177 (talk) 10:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

✅ by another editor - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I've changed his entry to state that he was an "al-Qaeda member" rather than an "al-Qaeda terrorist", citing WP:TERRORIST and the thought that labelling someone a terrorist isn't WP:NPOV. Can someone suggest a better wording other than "al-Qaeda member", which I feel is a bit flimsy? Cheers,  matt (talk) 17:05, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

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