Talk:Debbie Schlussel/Archive 2

Is this a parody?
This website, is it a parody or does it really belong to Schlussel? "Neocon" is a code word for "jew" and an anti-Semitic slur? Swastikas beside a pic of Octavia Nasr, described as a "bigoted, anti-Semitic pig ... CNN’s lying, anti-Israel ... Islamo-pandering kalbeh"? I think our Wiki article's harshest words for this woman, "provocative and controversial" may be wanting -- surely someone has described her more critically/accurately? Apologies if the site is some kind of hoax. RomaC TALK 16:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, that's the real deal. She is completely, absolutely, terrifyingly insane devoted to exposing the idiotic liberal, anti-Conservative, anti-Semitic, pro-Islamic pro-Hitler bias of about 95% of the world as we know it, a bold speaker for the few remaining humans among this race of Homo Sapiens that infests the world. Just leaf through that blog you linked to. TomorrowTime (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Is this guy kidding? He thinks hating Islam is okay but opposes anti-Semitism? Wow. 74.73.154.172 (talk)
 * Debbie Schlussel is not a "guy", unless there's something she isn't telling us.... Difluoroethene (talk) 00:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

RFC
This article relies almost entirely on primary sources, and is essentially promotional in nature. Due to Schlussel's right-wing extremism (according to the Darrell Issa article, Issa said that one of Schlussel's columns likely inspired the JDL to attempt to bomb his congressional office; Issa is a Republican, which just gives an idea of how far to the right Schlussel is), Schlussel and her views fall under WP: FRINGE. The article as it stands currently is essentially promoting FRINGE theories and needs a major cleanup. We can have an article about her if it turns out she is notable (she may not be, given the article's current reliance on primary sources), but it can't be a hagiography or an apologia for her FRINGE views. I'm seriously considering AFDing it, but I'd like a second opinion first. Maybe it's salvageable. Stonemason89 (talk) 23:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it would take just a bit of editing to achieve a NPOV, and despite the primary sources, the subject is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia.Bobzchemist (talk) 18:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Criticism
Criticism sections have been strongly discouraged by Wikipedia

So why is the section still in the article?

Is it because she is a conservative?98.204.211.159 (talk) 22:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Where have they been "strongly discouraged"? Where is the relevant policy? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 12:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Its not because she's a conservative. Its because she's been heavily criticized.  Schwang wang wang ...--Milowent • talkblp-r  17:50, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Burpelson AFB, see Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center, where Blaxthos says "Criticism sections have been strongly discouraged by Wikipedia". No Criticism section has been allowed in the article Southern Poverty Law Center. SPLC has received a lot of criticism. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?98.204.211.159 (talk) 21:43, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not every person and organization on wikipedia are identical in terms of press coverage. i.e., hitler and gandhi are not subject to the same level of criticism.--Milowent • talkblp-r 21:53, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

No kidding. Comparing Debbie Schlussel to Hitler is inappropriate to say the least. The press in America is almost all liberal, so naturally there will be more negative coverage of conservatives.98.204.211.159 (talk) 22:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding comments on other articles by Blaxthos, WP:ALLORNOTHING applies, and his is just one opinion (not an official policy, and not even an opinion of this article in particular). I do note that criticism sections are discouraged, not prohibited, because they're a sign of poor quality writing. It isn't appropriate to blank them, but rather incorporate the criticism into the article itself as this improves the quality of the article as a whole. If you'd like to attempt this as an effort to improve the article I think it would be fine, but the rest of the article will probably require revision in order to make it at least semi-linear. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 12:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What the hell, I'll just do it myself. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 13:08, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. The views and statements are all attributed to reliable independent sources or to Schlussel herself and the criticism heading is gone. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 13:18, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you98.204.211.159 (talk) 01:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Evidence of bigotry and erroneuous assumptions. ..
I would like to see some attention paid Ms. Schlussel's opinions regarding the murder of Russell Sneiderman, a Jewish businessman who was killed in Dunwoody, GA, before Thanksgiving last year, as he dropped his son off at pre-school. A sketch of the suspect was provided, and the following blog appeared soon after:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/29788/who-killed-rusty-sneiderman-check-out-the-sketch

In it, Ms. Schlussel made much of the fact that the sketch depicted a man with a beard but no mustache, and that the victim was Jewish. She stated "Yes, that mustache-less, 'Planet of the Ape Man' beard isn’t just an Amish or Mennonite thing. It’s a Muslim thing, found mostly in Sunni Islam, not Shi’ism."

When, a few days ago, a man resembling the sketched individual was arrested, he turned out to be of Israeli ethnicity (and the boss of the victim's wife). As such, it became clear that Ms. Schlussel's assumptions about the likely ethnicity of the murderer were as flawed as they were bigoted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.131.14.129 (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You might want to submit that to Media Matters; it seems like something they'd be interested in writing about. For future reference, Wikipedia talk pages aren't really the right place to bring that up. Stonemason89 (talk) 21:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments on rape?
Recently, Debbie Schlussel posted that she all but celebrated the rape of broadcaster Lara Logan using the phrase, "As I’ve noted before, it bothers me not a lick when mainstream media reporters who keep telling us Muslims and Islam are peaceful get a taste of just how “peaceful” Muslims and Islam really are. In fact, it kinda warms my heart. Still, it’s also a great reminder of just how “civilized” these “people” (or, as I like to call them in Arabic, “Bahai’im” [Animals]) are:" http://www.debbieschlussel.com/33031/how-muslims-celebrate-victory-egypts-peaceful-moderate-democratic-protesters/


 * I've added this to the article. Robofish (talk) 02:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

False accusations on role of Polish people in German Holocaust effort
I propose to add information about Ms. Schlussel opinion on Polish nation which does not correspond to historical sources: http://www.debbieschlussel.com/50114/poles-were-complicit-in-holocaust-outrage-over-obama-gaffe-is-fraudulent-ignorant/

According to trusted historical sources the quotation below is entirely false: "Poles murdered millions of Jews, they maintained several death camps, and they wiped out almost all of both sides of my family, as well as those in hundreds of thousands of other Jewish families."

Please compare historical sources referenced in Holocaust in Poland article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.154.167.106 (talk) 09:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

How has this hatred spilling not been added to the page? If these sort of bigotry filled comments were made against Jews....then this entire page would be labeled "Anti-Semitic" with cute little images & crests. Stop the double standards Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.17.189 (talk) 23:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

On June 6, 2012 she wrote on her Facebook page: ''Some Polish website is sending 4,000 Jew haters an hour to my site and they took my site down. Lots of traffic for me and a ton of anti-Semitic comments and e-mails (and I was locked out of posting for most of the day), but they told me they are working on getting the site back up. Should be back up soon. Thanks for your patience. Y'all come back now, ya hear?''

Then she followed with: ''All Polish Jew-haters GET OFF my fan page. I know you like to deny that you helped the Nazis murder 3 million Polish Jews after centuries of pogroms you committed against them. But lie about it somewhere else. I am deleting you. If you cannot comment on the topic of the post and refrain from anti-Semitic, violent, depraved sexual comments, YOU. ARE. NOT. WELCOME. HERE. This ain't Auschwitz. . . or even the Warsaw Ghetto. Go away''. Miropress (talk) 17:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Adding information about False accusations on role of Polish people in German Holocaust effort to article about Debbie Schlussel
Kindly ask for adding information about False accusations on role of Polish people in German Holocaust effort which Debbie Schlussel tries to spread by his blog webpage: http://www.debbieschlussel.com/50114/poles-were-complicit-in-holocaust-outrage-over-obama-gaffe-is-fraudulent-ignorant/ In my opinion, this information should be included on wikipedia just as a fact to be noticed when reading the articles of influential political commentator. Her views can be as harmful, as Holocaust Denial. This request can be done in not biased way by someone who have neutral point of view on this case (I have negative feelings about all the case, therefore cannot provide neutral point of view on the case). Moreover, this information will fit to the article, because there are more information about other controversial opinions in section "Professional life and views" of article about Debbie Schlussel.

The historical information about the Holocaust made by Germans in Poland can be found on wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Poland


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Please tell me the exact text you want to be added.  Mdann52 (talk) 17:33, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

At the end of the section: Professional life and views please add the following information: "In 2012 Schlussel wrote article(reference:http://www.debbieschlussel.com/50114/poles-were-complicit-in-holocaust-outrage-over-obama-gaffe-is-fraudulent-ignorant/) in which she made a comment regarding Barack Obama apology for mistake he made in his speech (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/01/us-obama-poland-holocaust-idUSBRE8500QL20120601) regarding using the phrase "polish death camps" for nazi Germany death camps which were located in occupied Poland. Schlussel described apology as "the feigned shock and fake moralizing over his comments, yesterday, about German Nazi death camps in Poland being a Polish death camp." Moreover, Schlussel blamed Polish nation as responsible for Holocaust: "Poles murdered millions of Jews, they maintained several death camps, and they wiped out almost all of both sides of my family, as well as those in hundreds of thousands of other Jewish families." "

Just to make side note, there is no evidence for Polish people maintaining death camps for anyone, Jewish families included. I didn't included this information to avoid any accusation on violationg POV rules (however, I think that this information is necessary). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.230.165.183 (talk) 18:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

89.230.165.183 (talk) 16:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  Mdann52 (talk) 15:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Current description on the page sounds really cold. It is written "but there is no evidence to support that", but I would say even more, that there is evidence refuting it! I know about neutral point of view policy, but according to our knowledge of history Polish people
 * were the nation which suffered the most (more than Germany) during world war II and it concerns not only Jewish population, but the nation and country as a whole
 * Polish army was the 4th biggest Allied army (after USSR, US, UK) fighting nazis on almost every european front. Created the biggest and the best organized underground army, which gathered a lot of intelligence information (also about the holocaust, which Americans (also American Jews) didn't want to belive ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski ), helped people (also the Jews) and undertook guerrilla warfare.
 * Polish underground army executed people collaborating with Germans and helping Germans to catch the Jews.
 * Poland was one of not many (I heard the only, but can't prove it, some trustworthy source is required) where for helping the Jews people were either killed or sent to concentration camp (what often also meant death). Despite of this Polish people received the most Righteous among the Nations awards for helping Jews during WWII (and many more deserved it, but died helping Jews)
 * Debbie said that Polish collaborated with Germans - I would like to point out, that most of nations conquered by Germans collaborated with them and often even created military units dependent on Germans (examples: Hungarinas, Ukrainians, Lituanians, Estonians...) but Polish have not created such a unit! There were also Jewish organizations which collaborated with Germans ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBagiew).

To sum up it seems to me really unfair to blame Poland for holocaust. Debbie also says that Jews where killed in Poland since centuries, but probably doesn't know, that Jews were unpopular in many west european countries as well, and in the times of the First Republic of Poland (I Rzeczpospolita) there was no religious murders in Poland (in contrast to some western countries). Maybe they didn't love each other, but Catholics, Orthodox, Jewish and Muslims lived together in one country.

I have written all this because not everyone dares to read details and can be confused by what Mrs. Schlussel says. In many countries history is not well taught and it would be good to prevent Mrs. Debbie mystification.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.74.102.119 (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I would like to fully agree with the comment above - unsigned comment added by 89.74.102.119 (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC) I would like to suggest adding links to other articles like History of the Jews in Poland and The Holocaust in Poland to give the readers opportunity to get some background knowledge. I haven't added it myself, as I rarely correct/update wiki entries, and I am not sure how should it be done properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KubicaPOL (talk • contribs) 13:39, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: I have done this to support the above request - not everyone can be happy! Until you give me non- Wikipedia sources, I can't change it Mdann52 (talk) 15:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Non-wikipedia sources needed? citation from the book: "Whatever the figure, it does seem clear that tens of thousands of Jews were saved by Polish individuals or networks like Zegota. Moreover, it is equally certain that thousands of Poles were executed or died in concentration camps for trying to help Jews."
 * "Altruistic Personality: Rescuers Of Jews In Nazi Europe", Samuel P. Oliner

Gerald Kaiser citation from the website: "This is a bit of personal history in an otherwise professional context, and for that reason I was somewhat reluctant to include it. I do so only because it is an inspiring tale of courage, love and sacrifice at an otherwise horrible time and as such it deserves to be widely known. I was the fortunate recipient of these gifts in 1942 - 45, aged 2-5, and will be forever awed by them. They are all the more remarkable because the people you see in the photos risked their own lives and those of their families to save a complete stranger, for no apparent gain -- a member of a tribe considered by many at that time to be evil and despicable. A central question in my life has been whether I, or anyone I know, would measure up to this standard under similar conditions. I’m afraid the answer cannot be known until such conditions arise, as we have learned once again from New Yorkers in September 2001."
 * http://www.wavelets.com/pages/stories.html

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/statistics.asp#detailed (as for 2011 - 6,339/24,355 (more than 1/4) are Polish)
 * Statistics of "Righteous among the Nations":

I could find thousends of resources (links, books etc.) to support what I have written previously. If someone has something interesting to add please do it!

BTW. there are already pages on Wikipedia about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Poland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Polish_communities_during_the_Holocaust

There is tons of resources which prove Mrs Debbie Schlussel to spread misinformation and trying to falsify history. Unfortunately in the Internet era People can easy get misled - information is widely available, but not all the resources are credible and people tend to believe in everything what they read without further investigation. It's hard to be surprised - we are constantly flooded with information.
 * http://www.pacwashmetrodiv.org/events/holoc04/moor-jankowski.htm, it says a lot about how it looked. - Vorpal Saber (talk) 16:47, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/poland.htm - (in the footer it says "Research for this article was taken from The Forgotten Holocaust by Dr. Richard C. Lukas, and Jews and Poles in World War II by Stefan Korbonski. "), it is very informative, especially percents of people lost: "During the period of the Holocaust of World War II, Poland lost:
 * 45% of her doctors,
 * 57% of her attorneys
 * 40% of her professors,
 * 30% of her technicians,
 * more than 18% of her clergy
 * most of her journalists.

Poland's educated class was purposely targeted because the Nazis knew that this would make it easier to control the country." - the amounts seen are staggering, and I would doubt they indicate that the Poles were complicit in the Holocaust as Debbie stated. Vorpal Saber (talk) 17:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/data.show.php?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=107 - even here it says that "after the Jews and the Roma (Gypsies) the Poles were the most tormented national group. Millions of Poles were murdered by the Nazis during WWII. " Plus:

"Most were passive witness who did nothing to aid their neighbors nor did they assist the Germans in destroying them. (...) A minority of Poles co-operated with the Germans by turning in Jews who were in hiding to get rewards of money or goods. A different minority became the so-called Righteous Gentiles who risked their own lives to save Jews. A majority of the Righteous Gentiles honored at Yad Vashem are Poles." It also says about anti-Semitism in Poland at that time, but it is said clearly: "It has been pointed out that anti-Semitism is not the same thing as mass murder. Polish anti-Semitism never envisioned wholesale murder." while the same cannot be said about Hitler's plan for Jews and Poles (in both cases, complete extermination). - Vorpal Saber (talk) 17:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The part of the page you are on about details THEIR BELIEFS, NOT FACT OR FICTION Mdann52 (talk) 14:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And why are her BELIEFS marked in the article as CONTROVERSIAL, and not RACIST? This is a FACT: talking about killing 1.8 billion Muslims in no uncertain terms, calling whole nation of Poland "anti-Jew haters"? If this is not a factual racism, I don't know what is. Racism in her posts is absolutely visible with NPOV - it conforms to the dictionary definition. If not, then please tell me what it is. In any time or any culture calling for a complete physical extermination of a whole race would be considered racist. - Vorpal Saber (talk) 08:30, 12 June 2012 (UTC)