Talk:Declan Ganley/Archives/2012

Declan's Nationality
Dear Opiumjones, Wikipedia is not the place to fight a battle over Declan's nationality. He is a living person, and as such his page must be written conservatively in his favour. It must say Declan Ganley is Irish on his wikipedia page - whether it is an open question or not. It will almost require Declan to say/admit he is British before you can put it on Wikipedia. --QuotationMan (talk) 09:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

add title
He's an Irish citizen. Far more English than Irish. However, he's an Irish citizen. NOT Irish.

I think a compromise is in order. He was BORN in England which makes him English. But he IS an Irish Citizen. Fair inclusion?

ANYWAY, being born in Britain makes you BRITISH not Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthinirishpolitics (talk • contribs) 22:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

By that logic Ronan O'Gara is American.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meldan (talk • contribs) 08:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Declan's Nationality
Agreed: Irish Citizen is a fair compromise. Defining someone's nationality is not a straight-forward matter. Read the wikipedia page Nationality, it is not just where you are born, what passport you carry or how you feel. There are many aspects to it. --QuotationMan (talk) 13:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes well officially if you are born in a country you are of that nationality. I can feel like I'm from the nation of Timbuktu if I want to but seeing as I wasn't born there I'm of a different nationality. Now, if I lived there for a number of years I may become a citizen of Timbuktu. Declanmoffett (talk) 16:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

No Title
QuatationMan is clearly a Ganley supporter / Libertas member. Look at the history of his edits - adding campaign propaganda, spin and removing anything unfavourable. This page will be altered daily by anonymous users until it is locked and Libertas are prevented from filling it with their own bullshit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.116.82 (talk) 12:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I think a compromise is warranted. He is an Irish Citizen, and I think that's a fair inclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthinirishpolitics (talk • contribs) 22:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You could be born in a country and still not be a citizen of that country. A child born in The Netherlands for example would not be Dutch if the mother was not Dutch. They would need to apply for it. So where you are born is only a factor in determining your nationality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.51.123.213 (talk) 10:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

No campaign propaganda on Wikipedia. Conservative biographies
I agree that Wikipedia pages on Politicians must not be used as campaign propaganda, by displaying campaign promises and political slogans, I will not reinsert these. If you look at Barack Obama's page: under policies it doesn't say any campaign slogans or promises - only cold facts - exactly as it should be on Wikipedia. Biographies on Wikipedia must be written conservatively. Any disputes on Declan's nationality, business interests, controversies and conspiracy theories must not appear on his Wikipedia page, or anywhere else on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a place to offend. --QuotationMan (talk) 07:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

No title
It is now absolutely clear that this entry is being actively managed by Ganley supporters in order to present a benign image of him and remove what are mainstream questions about him. Persons who remove items on the basis of the lack of references also add in unreferenced comments as fact - such as the sacharine nonsense about turf-cutting.

The agression and obsessionsof the Libertas movement should not be allowed to destroy this as a forum for information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G O'Sullivan (talk • contribs) 19:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

"questions" mainstream or not, do not belong in a wiki page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.189.71.198 (talk) 14:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Questions raised in E.U. Parliament about Pentagon contracts, the C.I.A. and Libertas Funding
added section; Opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Nationality questioned by Irish minister cats may be incorrect
is also reproted that until 2008 Declan Ganley stated he was British in UK filings of Company records so cats may be incorrect see Opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed Cats plus another ref Opiumjones 23 (talk) 08:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

BLP
Would anon IP editors please use only cited information and add refs as this is a page about a living person and must comply with WP:BLP. Opiumjones 23 (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Assessment
Assessments of Irish related articles are normally made by the WikiProject Ireland assessment team members according to criteria set up for that purpose. This article does not come anywhere near being of High importance according to that criteria, so please do not upgrade the article to an importance rating it does not deserve, especially as he has not had a large impact in their main discipline, across a couple of generations. Your High rating claims this person to be of equal importance to such people as Daniel O'Connell, Cathal Brugha and Tony O'Reilly to name a few. Remember that Wikipedia requires people to be notable for them to even have their article accepted, so even a Low importance rating is a good thing and I am reverting it to that rating. If you don't agree then please bring request an assessment formally. ww2censor (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine. I mistook high media profile/current political importance for encyclopaedia rating. Let's talk about the rating again in 40 years. Thanks for cleaning up the refs. Opiumjones 23 (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe a little earlier. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 18:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Anglo adriatic, ganley group and Kosta Trebicka
More info is need on early days, Albania stock and fund raising and associates and Kosta Trebicka? You can help; Opiumjones 23 (talk) 04:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

and http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/efraim_e_diveroli/index.html

Euro parties/foundations/group see my talk page
User:Anameofmyveryown has left a good rundown of these on my talk page see 

Opiumjones 23 (talk) 20:28, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Note to all editors
the subject of this page is a living person, politician and businessman. No un referenced info should be added to this main page!!!!see WP:BLP for guidence Opiumjones 23 (talk) 22:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Nationality
I am going to ask that all editors start using the talk page re comments. Declan Ganley is a controversial European figure but editors must observe WP:BLP see also WP:ISNOT

Please add comments here. "His English accent comes from the fact that he was born in London, though his Irish-born parents took the family back to live in rural Co Galway when he was 13." .

Declan Ganley was born in British and holds both British and Irish passports. Therefore he is a British citizen first and an Irish citizen second. Wikipedia should refer to him as British or both British and Irish but not as just as an Irish citizen. It annoys me when controversial figures are said to be Irish but if they have a concrete achievement they suddenly become British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by King91620 (talk • contribs) 13:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

There have two single purpose new accounts editing this page today. I will take it up at 3RR and BLP incidents boards if the pattern continues but we may need to flag the page.Opiumjones 23 (talk) 00:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Re Letter from Austria
Recent edits have attempted to mke this section appear as if this was speculation. However the reference on th page has an article in which John McGuirk of Libertas confirms the story Sunday Business Post >     2008/05/25 . According to The Sunday Business Post Ganley’s anti-Lisbon Treaty group supported a letter-writing campaign to Irish citizens by an Austrian political group Rettet Österreich (Save Austria) who are supported by some far-right and neo-Nazi groups far-right support. However Rettet Österreich (Save Austria)has emerged though the group has denied that they are an "exterme right wing group". John McGuirk of Libertas confirmed that they had agreed to the campaign.

Just so editoprs know this is confirmed info and not in contension. Opiumjones 23 (talk) 19:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
On the 25th of April user "G O'Sullivan" made several edits whose purpose was obviously to discredit Ganley. One example is the sentence "How a person in his early 20s, no business record, no capital and no knowledge of Russian could gain access to such a lucrative trade in the Soviet Union is completely unknown." that mimics a legitimate encyclopaedic language, but is clearly tendentious as well as libellous in tone and implication. I have not been able to look through the rest of the article but there are likely to be more unsourced, controversial statements in there, and so I have added an NPOV tag to remain for the time being. Barnsoldat91 (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry to disagree, but none of the edits I made were in any way libellousand their removal appears to be part of the Wiki-whitewashing effort exposed in recent days. For those not familiar with this, it has been revealed that Libertas made changes to Wiki which were then cited by a candidate on Irish radio to support a statement she was making. Frankly, the ocmments I put in are a hell of a lot less tendencious than the "he wanted to spend his life cutting turf" nonsense which is pure political positioning.

Libertas has a habit of personally abusing people who disagree with them ad accusing them of libel when they ask even basicquestions. Hopefully this will not continue here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G O'Sullivan (talk • contribs) 20:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I gave a perfectly good example of a controversial, unsourced statement, the kind of which is not to be allowed on biographies of living persons on Wikipedia. You're going to have to do a lot better than claiming a political conspiracy and reverting my edits. Barnsoldat91 (talk) 00:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, you claimed libel and have not explained this. I have not claimed a political conspiracy, just pointed to the fact that Libertas' Tuam office has been editing its wiki pages - go look at the IPs. There is no dispute on the matters I put in - none whatsoever. Een Ganley himself doesn't claim to have spoken Russian, etc in his early 20s. This is a highly controversial inividual and the attempt to whitewash it is ridiculous. Please dismount the high horse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G O'Sullivan (talk • contribs) 19:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

This page has been stubbed
Some 60 footnotes have been reduced to 12 in reacnt edit see the page has been stubbed. Any suggestions? i will revert all the intermeditae edits by User:Qusetionmqan if no one object Catapla (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Adding deleted footnotes ^ Declan Ganley: Ireland's Mysterious Mr. No, The Independent, 10 June 2008 ^ What will international man of mystery Declan Ganley do next? SundayTribune. June 15, 2008. Retrieved 15 March 2009. ^ Profile: Declan Ganley. TimesOnline, May 25, 2008. Retrieved 14 March 2009. ^ a b c Nationality of Libertas founder was listed as British in UK records, The Irish Times, 21 Sept 2008 ^ "Declan J. Ganley". www.rivada.com. http://www.rhttp://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0922/1221998222102.htmlivada.com/about/keypersonnel/declanjganley.htm. Retrieved on 2008-05-06. ^ a b Daly, Gavin (2006-03-19). "US magazine claims Ganley set to become billionaire". The Sunday Business Post. http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/03/19/story12731.asp. ^ a b [1] CNBC Profile of Declan Ganley retrieved 2 November 2008 ^ a b c Declan Ganley - The King of 45 000 Albanian ShareHolders, Albanian Canadian League Information Service ^ [2] The Irish Times 30 October 2008 ^ Liam Lawlor Obituary by David McKittrick The Independent, 24 October 2005 ^ [3] Irish Times Breaking News, 29 October 2008, Retrieved 2 November 2008 ^ a b c "MT280907.ecl" (PDF). http://www.flood-tribunal.ie/images/SITECONTENT_744.pdf. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. Evidence of Frank Dunlop and Declan Ganley at Flood Tribunal, 28 September 2007 ^ The Rise and Fall of Albania's Pyramid Schemes by Christopher Jarvis, Finance and Development, March 2000, Volume 37, Number 1, retrieved 2 November 2008 ^ a b Ganley, Declan (December 2003). "Europe’s Constitutional Treaty: A Threat to Democracy and How to Avoid It". Foreign Policy Research Institute. http://www.fpri.org/ww/0405.200312.ganley.euconstitution.html. Retrieved on 2008-05-30. ^ New York Times, 26 February 2002 ^ a b c "Libertas and its letters from Austria". The Sunday Business Post. 2008-05-25. http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/05/25/story33134.asp. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ a b c d e "Ganley said he gave a €200,000 loan to Libertas". Irish Times. 2008-09-19. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0919/1221773888299.html. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ "On the Late Late Show, 3 October 2008". RTE. 2008-10-03. http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/av_20081003.html?2431974,null,228. Retrieved on 2008-11-08. ^ "Substantial amount of funding for Libertas came from Ganley - The Irish Times - Fri, Oct 03, 2008". Irishtimes.com. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1003/1222959300759.html. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ Libertas fails to co-operate with loans inquiry. Irish Times, 14 March 2009. ^ "Libertas: US Military Contractors Against Lisbon! - Indymedia Ireland". Indymedia.ie. http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ "US magazine claims Ganley set to become billionaire: ThePost.ie". Archives.tcm.ie. http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/03/19/story12731.asp. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ Get Ganley! BBC News Mark Mardell's Euroblog ^ "Dáil Debates Official Report -2-11-99". Irlgov.ie. http://www.irlgov.ie/debates-99/2nov99/sect5.htm. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ a b "No campaign in Ireland / Minute of silence for victim of ETA bombing". Europarl.europa.eu. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/008-37657-266-09-39-901-20080919IPR37656-22-09-2008-2008-false/default_en.htm. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ a b MEPs seeking source of Libertas funding by Jamie Smyth, The Irish Times, 23 September 2008 ^ American military ties to the Lisbon "no" camp? The Economist ^ "CIA ‘backed’ Irish battle against Brussels treaty - Times Online". Timesonline.co.uk. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4837672.ece. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ Tackling of EU crisis needs Lisbon Treaty, says Barroso by Jamie Smyth, The Irish Times Thursday, 9 October 2008 ^ John Bolton: Lisbon Treaty will undermine democracy The Daily Telegraph, 9 Jun 2008 ^ http://www.state.gov/s/d/2008/112117.htm ^ "RTÉ News: Libertas may run candidates for Europe". Rte.ie. http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1004/eulisbon.html. Retrieved on 2008-10-27. ^ [4] Miriam Lord, Irish Times, 4 October 2008 ^ Irish Examiner, 25 September 2008 ^ Irish Times, 20 September 2008 ^ a b c d e The Irish Times, 1 November 2008 ^ a b EUROPA: Summaries of legislation: The regulations governing political parties and rules regarding their funding at European level ^ The European Commission > PreLex > COM (2007) 364 : 2007/0130/COD ^ Regulation (EC) No 1524/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 December 2007. ^ a b EU in drive to make Brussels more political euobserver.com 2007-05-29 ^ Ganley launches British arm of Libertas. Irish Times, 11 March 2009. ^ Right-wing parties rally under Libertas banner. Irish Times, 12 March 2009. ^ Ganley: I'll work to win voters' trust. Irish Times, 14 March 2009. ^ New political group launched. Times of Malta, 21 March 2009. Retieved 22 March 2009. ^ Former Latvian PM to stand for Libertas. Irish Times, March 30, 2009. Retrieved 30 March 2009. ^ "It's called democracy, you know?" Interview with Declan Ganley, E!Sharp, January 21, 2009. Retrieved 18 March 2009. ^ "Libertas applies for European political party funds", The Irish Times, 2008-11-27 ^ Irish Times, 2009-02-10, "Second nominated backer says he does not support Libertas". ^ Irish Times, 2009-02-10, "Second nominated backer says he does not support Libertas". ^ a b c Ganley's dinner party was a meeting of minds, The Irish Times, 13 November 2008 ^ a b Irish minister criticises Czech president's meeting with Ganley ^ Poll: Half of Czechs believe Klaus harms Czech Republic's image, ČTK, 18 November 2008 ^ [5] Sunday Independent, 16 November 2008 ^ a b c Press Association, 2008-11-18 ^ Irish Times, 18 November 2008 ^ a b Government 'would risk collapse' in Lisbon rerun, The Independent, 19 November 2008 ^ Ganley: All citizens should have EU constitution vote, Belfast Telegraph, 18 November 2008 ^ "Ganley threatens to sue Labour TD over Libertas allegations", The Irish Times 1 December 2008

External links

Catapla (talk) 10:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Making massive reverts
There was a very large revert earlier today, to an old version that had been significantly altered over time. The edit was done by an IP at the Irish parliament and switched to a very politicized and unneutral version of the article. If this happens again I'll contact an administrator. Midos (talk) 11:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Midos, the edit was in fact wise as the Libertas people editing the page have removed a huge amount of information that has been backed up by statements backed up by WP:RS's which is really not on. I think the best solution is to try and put back the innfo so that it does not violate WP:BLP but this page had 58 footnotes to newspapers and other very good secondary sources until recently, now it has twelve sources and footnotes, several being the Libertas website. That would seem to me to be a complete reversal in the usefullness of the page as an encyclopedia entry. I have posted an ANI about this page but I think itis time to rebuild from scratch. Catapla (talk) 11:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Catalpa. I appreciate your points but before we have a consensus can you please refrain from making reverts to an old version of the article? We should be erring on the side of caution in this article and a blanket revert to a weeks-old version is not a good idea - we don't want to get into an edit war here. The version you have reverted to is inferior in structure, so please try to add to the current version (that is, the version that has been used before the Oireachtas IP address's revert this morning) rather than just making reverts. The version you have reverted to is politically charged (for example, the 'Nationality controversy' section) and is not nearly neutral enough to satisfy the WP:BLP requirements. My feeling is that we should stick with the more conservative pre-revert version. Because I want to avoid an edit war, I'm filing for a dispute resolution. Midos (talk) 12:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact that so many references that conform with WP:RS have been removed by a few IPs and users is of note. A check user will reveal socks i fear. Catapla (talk) 12:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:RS is less important than WP:BLP here, and you should be erring on the side of caution and favourability to the subject. Some of the stuff in the reverted version is potentially libelous, I'm afraid, and the whole tone of the article is highly anti-Ganley, which is totally unacceptable for a biography of a living person. The request for editor assistance is here Midos (talk) 12:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Controversies
Please stop adding sections and comments about controversies and what people think or have said about Declan to his Wikipedia page. You can dispute his nationality, business connections and funding of Libertas many other places on the internet, but not Wikipedia. Just read [| Biographies of living persons]  --QuotationMan (talk) 11:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Well why are you removing relevant sections from his business interests? I think a €240 million deal should be mentioned. Also, I provided three highly reputable links from the Irish Times questioning the sources of Libertas's political funding which is relevant and you deleted them.

I agree with you that as a biography it should be fair and objective, but removing points which you may consider negative is nothing but pure bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthinirishpolitics (talk • contribs) 10:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Solution found
Have reverted and removed weasel words, rather than revert please highlight any unsourced info here and we can work on the page that way. If the page is stubbed again I will not be happy as the rest of the material on there conforms with WP:BLP and WP:RS

Any problems drop a note on my talk page

There has been too much editing that is WP:POV, WP:COI I will request Check User on any new users editing in a dramatic fashion.

Cheers Catapla (talk) 12:03, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Censorship by Libertas/Ganley
Why are the admins allowing Ganley and his minions from deleting information from the article? 89.204.237.254 (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Disputed
I have added dispurted templ;ate to the article as the page is being edited by two users who are POV pushing, huge amounts of references facts have been removed wiothout discussion. We need to have a check user of the various editors to ascertain if they are socks and which of them are IP 91.189.71.198. This IP is likely to be Rivada Networks/Libertas and has been used to make extensive deletes prior to User:Quotationman and User:Midos's edits. I will assume good faith but I fear these later users are working as a tag team on the page. One of them is likely to be  Catapla (talk) 17:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding the template. Feel free to do a check on me, I can assure you that I am a real person, and I have no connection with Libertas (nor have I had any contact with the other user you refer to). Please keep your speculation about me to yourself unless you have evidence to support it. In terms of the 'huge amount of referenced facts' that have been removed, my attention was drawn to this article this morning when the unregistered user 213.94.210.30 (IP address from the Oireachtas, which would suggest political affiliations!) made a revert to an old, long-since-modified version. That is not polite behaviour on this site, and the version reverted to was highly slanted against Ganley. Please remember that this is a biography of a living person and the rule is that we have to err on the side of the person being written about. That means that the previous page, with points about Ganley's nationality, irrelevant points about Libertas (save that for the  Libertas page!), and several other irrelevancies. Wikipedia guidelines on  this topic clearly state that "When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic." The fact that some parts of the larger artice were sourced isn't in dispute (although many were not), the point is that the article was slanted against Ganley in a way that is inappropriate for a biography of a living person. Midos (talk) 18:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Midos, can you explain why you edited out so many good sources and info that is both part of the subjects biography but is also part well sourced , uncontroversial and from secondary sources that are approved papers of record, evidence at judicial tribunal and parliamentary committees? Wikipedia pages are not supposed to reflect a PR agency view but rather conform to WP:BLP with references conforming to WP:RS. You are not seeking consensus here. Own websites eg Libertas.eu are not the best sources when there are hundreds of articles about Declan Ganley from Irish national, and international independent media to use. You are incorrect to assume that own websites with self promotion are the best sources. Please note the sources on this version, can you explain why each one is not good? ?

You also reverted while I was leaving a note here and I was removing contentious info from the longer more complete version with the good sources. i think you must explain that also. So
 * 1 Early life
 * 2 Nationality controversy
 * 3 Business life
 * 4 Liam Lawlor and the Mahon Tribunal
 * 5 US Foreign Policy Research Institute
 * 6 Libertas
 * 7 The Libertas Party and 2009 European Elections
 * 7.1 Ganley's political position
 * 7.2 Libertas application to the European Parliament for official status as a pan-European party
 * 7.3 Controversy over EU Registration of Libertas


 * 8 Visit of President Klaus
 * 8.1 Joint Oireachtas Committee


 * 9 Legal threats to Irish politicians
 * 10 See also
 * 11 References
 * 12 External links

What is wrong with each of these sections? As we deal with them we can re add them better we can just revert to the longer better sourced version and remove any issue quickly as I had started to do. Note the sources conform to When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic." Again Wikipedia is not a PR agency for election candidates.

Catapla (talk) 00:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Pages of Politicians
The Wikipedia page of Barack Obama is an example of how a perfect Wikipedia page of a politician should be. On Barack Obama's page - there is nothing about Acorn, nothing about the fact that he doesn't swear allegiance to the flag, nothing about Obama tossing the rose at the 9/11 memorial etc. All these things are facts that can be well sourced - still they are kept off his Wikipedia page to protect his privacy and reputation. WP:BLP

In exactly the same way there should be nothing about national controversy, Mahon Tribunal or US military connections on the page of Declan Ganley. --QuotationMan (talk) 07:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

There's a hell of a difference between not swearing allegiance to a flag, tossing a rose and a spun story about Acorn involvement. Stop using Republican talking points. A political leader who desires to alter the EU would be fantastic. But I don't want a leader who has connections to the CIA and DoD. I posted links on those connections, you removed them. They were factual and neutral. Facts do not have a bias. Truthinirishpolitics (talk) 08:31, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you have it wrong there, you should stop editing until we settle this. What is controversial about Ganley giving evidence to a corruption enquiry? It is very important and was news in Ireland, ditto his links to the US military. You can not airbrush these facts from his biography. What is wrong with his connections with the US military? Many people serve proudly for the US military? You may not like Obama , that just proves further you have not got a NPOV as Ganley is seen as being in with the GOP and George W. Bush's government. Again stop editing until resolution is achieved is the best idea. I want to request a check user to see if you are the Tuam, Ireland IP that has deleted info previously from this page.

These item are reported news and part of Mr. Ganley's biography. You mention Rivada Networks but not that it is a US military contractor? Is Libertas embarrassed about Mr Ganley making his living from the US military? You are displaying a POV that is PR led not encyclopaedia led. Re Mahon that was a tribunal into corruption at which Mr. Ganley said he employed Liam Lawlor that is a significant fact and part of Mr Ganley's biography. What does Charles Manson's page say that he liked puppies and was kind to his mother? Catapla (talk) 09:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Business Interests
If the fact that he ran a jewelry website is relevant to his business careers, so is the fact that he is participating in trade with US defence companies to the tune of €240 million, i.e. almost a QUARTER OF A BILLION. That large sum cannot be ignored in a section dealing with his business interests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthinirishpolitics (talk • contribs) 10:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Rivada
Rivada sells telecommunications equipment to be used by National Guard, Northern Command rescue teams etc. to communicate after natural disasters have struck. Labelling Rivada as a US Military contractor, or saying "Declan has links to US military" leads readers to think Rivada sells equipment used for war - it does not. Declan Ganley and Rivada have never been involved in war business and nothing on his Wikipedia page should hint otherwise.

--QuotationMan (talk) 10:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That is just silly, Rivada contracts are all with the US military; Have added the bare facts and sources so do not remove Catapla (talk) 10:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting how you only edit Libertas related pages during working hours isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthinirishpolitics (talk • contribs) 22:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * talk the vice president of the EU raised questions about Mr. Ganley at the EU parlimant;that is worthy of mention.

As to Rivada it would seem that most of it's contracts are with then US military Rewrite the sections using the sources that comply with WPRSCatapla (talk) 00:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Have added Rivada info, position on board, military contracts and recent appointment of Gen Richard Meyers to the board with refernces to Irish Times; Rivada Networks site and Fed Spending site; The language is nuetral and info accurate. Catapla (talk) 10:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Controversies

 * CIA
 * Rivada
 * nley International
 * attacking Poles Slovacks

Nationality
I have changed "English" to "Irish Citizen". There is a dispute over his nationality Irish vs. English. But no dispute that he is an Irish Citizen. I think it is a fair compromise to write that Declan is an Irish Citizen, and not write anything about the dispute on his nationality. We can keep the references to Irish Times etc. that dispute his nationality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by QuotationMan (talk • contribs) 09:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Rivada
I have removed the label "Defence Contractor" from Rivada in the Declan Ganley page. But kept the "Military, Police, emergency services". Rivada does supply US miltary so this can be mentioned. But the firm must not be labeled as "Defence Contractor" which is a weasel word - e.g. negative associations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by QuotationMan (talk • contribs) 09:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Its main clients are the US military therefore they are a defence contractor. Please revert your edits. See Catapla (talk) 10:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

"it's not a question of whether the US military are a main client. The term "defence contractor" leads people to think of "war business". It is therefore better to simply explain - as the article does now: that Rivada makes telecommunicatinos equipment used against natural disasters, and then naming US military as one of its clients.

It says: military, police and emergency. Military is named as the first one - as it is the biggest (i don't know if it is in fact the biggest client, but we'll assume so). It must be absolutely clear to any reader- that Rivada in no way is engaged in war business.

Do we have someone neutral who we can get to settle this particular dispute? --QuotationMan (talk) 11:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The US military is in the business of defending the US. Therefore, people who do business with the defenders are defence contractors. You can think negatively of it all you want, its not your place to define. That's why we put references, unlike you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthinirishpolitics (talk • contribs) 18:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Early Life
I want to expand the section "Early life" with references to the biography in his book, and his CNBC profile. It will look like this:

Until the age of 13 Declan Ganley lived in Watford, England and attended different Roman Catholic schools.[1] At the age of 13 Declan Ganley returned to Ireland and attended school in Coláiste Sheosaimh, Glenamaddy from where he got his Leaving Certificate in 1987. [2] While living in Galway, Glenamaddy and attending school from age 13 to 18 Declan Ganley rented a bank of turf which he cut and sold at the local market. [2]

Upon receiving his Leaving Certificate at the age of 18, Declan Ganley moved to London to find a job. He initially worked on building sites but soon found a job as a tea boy at an insurance company. In 1988 after a trip to Russia, Declan Ganley made his first attempt to launch a business. A company to insure Western communication satellites launched on Soviet rockets. Declan Ganley also made his first trip to the USA to find customers, but was unsuccesful and his business never launched.[3]

Shortly after Declan Ganley moved to Russia. During the fall of the Soviet Union the Ruble (Russian Currency) had depreciated and Siberian aluminum was undervalued. As a result aluminium in Russia was far cheaper than in the West. Declan Ganley saw an opportunity to exploit the price difference and made contracts to buy the aluminium at the equivalent of $30 in Russia and sell it at $300 in the West. The aluminium was then shipped to Rotterdam via Latvia. Declan Ganley didn't need to raise much capital for this business idea because he was able to make contracts where he would pay for buying the aluminium only after he been paid for selling it. [4][5]

Please give feedback, comments. --QuotationMan (talk) 11:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If it is from a biography in his own book I imagine it wouldn't be a reliable source as it's self published but I may be wrong. Smartse (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Under Biographies_of_living_persons it says: autobiographies that have been published by reliable third-party publishing houses are treated as reliable sources, because they are not self-published. --QuotationMan (talk) 08:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok. I think that is too long still but it could be included. The info about the aliminium trading is a little too promotional in my opinion too. One problem still remains - I don't have the book this info is supposedly from which means that I can't add anything. What's the book and what is the CNBC? Smartse (talk) 15:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The book is funded by the subject Declan Ganley and therefore is a vanity publication. It would be useful for the subjects point of view but hardly as secondary source facts. NB the Irish Independent says it is a Ganley publication Ganley to publish his 'vision' in new book "Libertas founder Declan Ganley has copied Barack Obama by publishing his political vision in a book which sharply escalates his extraordinary feud with Fianna Fail's "Mr Europe" Dick Roche." etc Not a good source re contentious issues  Catapla (talk) 00:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It might not be a good source to use on all issues - but as a source for events in his personal life - there is no better source. This is the CNBC link - --QuotationMan (talk) 07:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I have inserted the section i suggested here earlier to "early life". Smartse wrote the Aluminum trading part in his opinion is too promotional. How would you suggest editing it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by QuotationMan (talk • contribs) 12:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Contracts worth EUR 240 mill
This piece of information is taken from a very weak Irish Times article - that says: Maybe up to as much as 240, from an in-company source they keep secret. The reference is not good enough for Wikipedia.

--QuotationMan (talk) 13:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Well I trust the paper of record more than I trust your opinion of the paper of record.

VANDAL PARTISAN —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthinirishpolitics (talk • contribs) 18:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The idea that the Irish Times is less than a paper of record does not bear comment. Furthermore there is a list of the 240 Eur mil contracts in the link to Fed spending site. It is not a point that is in contention it is what we regard as a fact. Catapla (talk) 20:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Tags
I'm not sure why there are three tags on this article - I can just about see why a neutrality tag might be required but the other two (more references and dispute over factual accuracy) don't seem necessary. There is only one on the article - and this seems pretty obvious based on other Libertas articles. Everything else seems to be well sourced. Can anyone point out which other claims they think these tags are related to? I'd like to move towards removing them. Smartse (talk) 15:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Definitely keep the neutrality tag Catapla (talk) 00:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you agree that the others can be removed though? Smartse (talk) 08:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Furious
The description of Higgins' attack on Ganley as "furious" is editorialising as it is a matter of opinion. Under NPOV we should simply say what he said, not add in our own descriptions. I have removed the sentence and edited the sentence to say what he said and avoid commenting on the nature of how it was said.

It is also incorrect to list birth place alongside dates, though some people on this site do that. (We really need to start enforcing the standard structure more, rather than haphazardly adding in different variants in different articles. FearÉIREANN \(caint)  05:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Also the word "branded" is NPOV. Just write:, incumbent MEP Jim Higgins called Ganley a 'puppet of the US military'.

The idea of mentioning 3 times in the article that Declan has ties to US military and then finishing off with an attack from Jim Higgins callin him "puppet of the US military" is quite an NPOV choice of facts to include. —Preceding unsigned comment added by QuotationMan (talk • contribs) 07:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Surely the mention of ties to the US Military are relevant, given that (1) they are factual and (2) they show his self interest in his opposition to Lisbon?

Also, is it worth mentioning in the final line that 9% of first preferences, plus 3% of transfers - which is what that poll suggested he would get - is nowhere near enough to get elected? 86.43.172.249 (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I provided 4 links stating Ganley was British and they were vandalised by QuotationMan 78.16.22.171 (talk) 08:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Declan Ganley says he is Irish and he is an Irish citizen. Declan's page must be written conservatively favouring his privacy and reputation. The dispute on his nationality does not belong on Wikipedia. See Biographies of living persons for guidelines. --QuotationMan (talk) 13:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This: favouring his privacy and reputation is incorrect - the article should be written truthfully not to suit anybody's agenda. Personally, it seems like a pretty petty thing to discuss - if he was born in Britain and now has Irish citizenship, does that not mean he is both?! Smartse (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

He is Irish (if has always said he is)
If he considers himself and has always said he is Irish then he is Irish. I was born in London to an Irish mother and an English father. I moved here when I was 5 years old. I consider myself both IRISH and an Irish citizen. I like England and i like to see them do well, but I am irish. Once you have the right to be legitimately considered one or the other then it comes down to a personal choice as to which country you hold more affinity to and where the culural bond exists. Please check out Wikipedia's article's on Nationality and Citizenship if you dispute this. (However if Mr Ganley previously said he was British and is just saying he is Irish to appeal to the Irish psyche then I would take back my assertions) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darwhi (talk • contribs) 16:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Added nationality of Irish
He is an Irish citizen. Nationality has been added to infobox.--Bagration1944 (talk) 17:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality tag
This has been tagged since May as bein not neutral, there doesn't seem to be any talk on why this tag is in place. Please list any problems or I shall remove the tag in a week. Smartse (talk) 09:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No comments so I've removed the tag. Please list specific points that are disputed before replacing the tag, Thanks Smartse (talk) 09:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)