Talk:Dee Palmer/Archive 1

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This is a really unusual issue: Pronouns of people who WERE male but are now female. How should it be treated? its misleading to say that "she" was a member of Jethro Tull, because that implies that Palmer WAS a she at the time.


 * Jethro Tull's official website, http://www.j-tull.com/musicians/pastmembers/davidpalmer.html, uses "he" when describing his/her past work, so I suggest Wikipedia follows suit. Bondegezou 15:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

It has become convention on Wikipedia to always use pronouns related to the target gender of transsexual people, even when referring to their pre-transition life. Dee Palmer, like most other transsexual women, probably always had a female gender identity, even when she was living as a male. For this article, I think it will be best to use whatever pronouns reflect consensus, and I, personally, would prefer to use female pronouns. Another option would be the gender-neutral pronouns sie and hir, but the problem with those is that most people have never heard of them. Andrea Parton 18:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

This convention stinks. It's better to call David an "it" now that he's had his genitalia removed.
 * Well, the issue seems to have been solved by just referring to him/her as Palmer throughout the article, instead of using pronouns...--HisSpaceResearch 09:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

One's sex is encoded in every cell of one's body, a matter of chromosomes, and can't be changed--at least not yet it can't. If most people have never heard of sie and hir, it's likely because they are not part of the English language and never have been. TheScotch 09:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, there are some people who have chromosomal karyotypes inconsistent with their physical and psychological sex and do not even know it. Other than by karyotype testing, which is expensive and rarely done in the absence of certain intersex conditions or other genetic conditions linked to the sex chromosomes.  Dee Palmer is a woman; she has always been one psychologically and even though she was born with male genitals, she has had corrective surgery now and has a clitoris and vagina.  I do not know for sure what sex chromosomes she has, but it really does not matter.  Caroline Cossey actually has a karyotype that is not typical for either males or females; her sex chromosomes are XXXY; this is a condition called Klinefelter's syndrome.  She was born with male genitals but a female gender identity; at the time she started her transition, she had a very feminine body for a gonadal male.  Chromosomes really are not a very useful way to define sex, at least in my opinion.  Andrea Parton 04:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "psychological sex"; the notion is patently absurd. You'd might as well speak of "psychological limbs". Gender is properly a grammatical term only (see Fowler). Cases in which someone has other than XX or XY chromosomes are very rare, and, in any case, an entirely separate and distinct matter and should not used to so as deliberately to obfuscate the matter the at hand. I don't know the physiological particulars of Palmer's case, and last I checked (admittedly over a year or so ago) Palmer hadn't divulged them; the reference was to "sex-change operations" in general.

The great (and completely heterosexual) jazz tenor saxophonist Lester Young characteristically referred to (completely heterosexual) males of whom he especially approved as "lady", and I haven't read of any of them objecting. If this article were of sufficient length that it would prove awkward continually to refer to its subject as "Palmer", rather than replacing that name from time to time with a pronoun, and if it could be definitively established that its subject preferred to be referred to with feminine pronouns, it would seem a reasonable course to do so whether or not Palmer had undergone any sort of surgery, whether or not Palmer were male, female, neuter, a hermaphrodite, or a non-carbon-based life form from a distant galaxy. The article is not of sufficient length, however, and since Palmer's biographical sketch (many times longer than the present article) at the Jethro Tull website uses masculine pronouns throughout, such a preference does not seem to me definitively established. TheScotch 03:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Eithe way, it is Palmer's business and we mustn't say or imply anything that is hatemongering against her. She was a member of Jethro Tull and has always been involved with them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.174.137.160 (talk) 21:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC) Dee Palmer was a man when she was in Jethro Tull. I think it makes perfect sense to call her she in the article after the transition and he before the transition. Certainly the transition is an important part of the article and of dee's life in general, and gendered pronouns color the reader's imagination of events. It will appear as if Dee palmer was a man when she was in jethro tull, which is just not true. TastemyHouse Breathe, Breathe in the air 19:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Dates and apostrophes, eg. “1970’s”
Andrea Parton: This is strictly a question of stylistic preference. Whichever style you personally prefer, it is inappropriate for your edit blurb to call these “misued [sic] apostrophes”.

John Hodes and Mary Whiteman: Harbrace College Handbook, 136: "Either the ' or s may be used to form such plurals as the following:.... the 1970's or the 1970s".

Margaret Shertzer: The Elements of Grammar, 99: "The 's may be added to figures, signs, symbols, and letters of the alphabet to form the plural. ...In the 1900s (or 1900's) technology spread through every aspect of human life, from transportation and cooking to in vitro fertilization." TheScotch 03:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)