Talk:Deepwater Horizon explosion/Archive 1

Same day company started trading on Swiss SIX exchange
An explosion and fire is not the sort of thing that goes well with http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=113031&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1411769&highlight=

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.232.94.33 (talk) 09:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

How deep?
How deep is the water where it sank? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.232.94.33 (talk) 20:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * About 5000 feet. Beagel (talk) 21:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Drill depth
The specifications of the rig are available right here. http://www.deepwater.com/fw/main/Deepwater-Horizon-56C15.html?LayoutID=17 Max drill depth is 30,000 feet. The 5,500 foot number in this article is clearly incorrect, especially when the maximum water depth is 8,000 feet (upgradeable to 10,000, but of course not now after sinking). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.232.94.33 (talk) 20:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Ensure that you distinguish between the ACTUAL location water depth (some 5000+ feet), borehole depth, and the maximum drilling depth (water and borehole) specifications for the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig (water depth: 8000 feet or 10000 feet with upgrades; borehole 30000 feet.) HerbM (talk) 07:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Map of oil spill
is a map of the spill, created by NOAA which should mean it is not copyrighted per being US Government created material. Can anyone convert this to a file type suitable to be uploaded and included? Aalox (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

added govtrust

Confusion
What does "Once the cementing was complete, it was due to be tested for integrity and a cement plug set to abandon the well for later completion as a subsea producer." mean? Stovl (talk) 06:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

i don't know that was said, but what it means is they intended to plug the well before starting to operate it. that btw. has nothing to do with this procedure of 'cementing' that is concerned with things around the borehole, and not inside.80.57.43.99 (talk) 11:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Lack of info on explosion and fire
I reorganized the section previously called "Explosion and rescue efforts" into two sections called "Explosion and fire" and "Casualties and rescue efforts." What this revealed is that, altho this article is titled as if it's about an explosion, there is almost no content about the explosion. Or for that matter the fire that raged for two days.

The explosion and fire, resulting in 11 (presumed) deaths and the sinking of the rig, may have been article-worthy in their own right even without the spill -- but quite possibly could be merged with the Deepwater Horizon article, a la the Titanic.

The what and why and how of the explosion and fire sections should grow. But should not be part of the article on the oil spill, which will be a growing and continuing story for a while, it looks like, sadly.Popsup (talk) 20:49, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Why is the accident described as suspicious?
It appears that this has been inserted twice without any justification. 66.147.172.7 (talk) 22:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The speculation has been removed and the persistent vandal blocked. GaussianCopula (talk) 23:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Coordinates
When I added the coordinates of the rig, I centered the coordinates to the middle of Mississippi Canyon Block 252 (that was on the day of the explosion or the day after). It's pretty good, but if anyone has gotten more precise coordinates in the last week, please add them. - Gump Stump (talk) 18:41, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Well "name" is Macondo Prospect in the Mississippi Canyon. Wikipedia article on Macondo exists. No lat/lon.

From http://www.subseaiq.com/Data/Project.aspx?project_Id=562 ''The Macondo prospect is located on Mississippi Canyon Block 252 in the Gulf of Mexico in a water depth of 4,993 feet (1,522 meters). BP serves as the operator, holding a 65% interest in the prospect; Anadarko holds 25%; and MOEX 2007 holds the remaining 10%.''
 * I have added accurate coordinates obtained from the google earth ASPECT data pack available on the EPA's spill website (direct link to data here, spill website link here). - Gump Stump (talk) 20:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Death of 11
Could someone, who can, please edit the open paragraph to include that 11 people lost their lives due to this explosion? PRONIZ (talk) 23:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a mention in the third paragraph related to the missing workers. They have not been declared dead yet although I think it will be just a matter of time. I don't see a reason to rush and declare them dead until authorities do so. At the heart of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, 11 grieving families —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaussianCopula (talk • contribs) 00:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It is mentioned in both the lead and the Casualties and rescue efforts section. Mentioned they are missing and presumed dead.--Labattblueboy (talk) 13:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

truthout.org source
I submitted a bit of information - a truthout.org piece, written by BBC journalist Greg Palast, reports that at least one worker has claimed that BP failed to inform Halliburton of the actual depth of the well, resulting in a too-small concrete cap, resulting in blowout. I'm not sure how this information should fit in, but I feel like "at least some have claimed that BP may have misled contractors ..." or something merits inclusion. In any case, I'm unreverting it for the moment. Swakeman (talk) 05:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand why this quote is relevant and should be included. But this quote is part of the following article.


 * I've seen this movie before.
 * Tankers run aground, wells blow out, pipes burst. It shouldn't happen, but it does.
 * That's because responding to a spill may be easy and simple, but not at all cheap. And BP is cheap. Deadly cheap.
 * But it was all a lie.
 * And here we go again. Valdez goes Cajun.
 * I wonder if BP painted the capsule green, like they paint their gas stations.
 * In the end, this is bigger than BP and its policy of cheaping out and skiving the rules.
 * Americans want government off our backs ... that is, until a folding crib crushes the skull of our baby, Toyota accelerators speed us to our death, banks blow our savings on gambling sprees and crude oil smothers the Mississippi
 * This just in: Becnel tells me that one of the platform workers has informed him that the BP well was apparently deeper than the 18,000 feet depth reported. BP failed to communicate that additional depth to Halliburton crews, who, therefore, poured in too small a cement cap for the additional pressure caused by the extra depth. So, it blew.

All I am saying is that this opinion piece will be likely reverted as news items are relayed. If you believe that it should be included now then go ahead. It will be corroborated soon enough as news articles indicate and all that will happen is that many of these personal claims will likely disappear.

I have no issue with the quote, it is only the article which encompasses the quote, which is simply an opinionated piece. GaussianCopula (talk) 05:22, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I added something like that to the Explosion and Fire section. Let me know what you think. Swakeman (talk) 06:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Apparently this article has been cleared as a reliable source. FWIW. Swakeman (talk) 06:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I see where it's noted that truthout.org and Greg Palast are considered reliable sources in general, by at least one editor; however, this is a third-hand anecdote, period. In addition, it's from a lawyer trying to make a case against BP...hardly a reliable source in itself.   There are lots of conflicting stories out there. some from first-hand sources (who aren't lawyers with a case to sell the press).  They are all anectdotal though, and their inclusion in a Wiki article of this sort serve only to propagate rumors, not objective fact.   I am removing it on that basis. --EECEE (talk) 07:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't write that it was an objective fact, only that at least one reliable source had suggested that as a possibility. I provided a citation to the article in which that is claimed. What about it as written was not factual? Swakeman (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Even though you stated that "a source suggested" it, the rest of the paragraph was presented as objective fact: like "workers claimed," "as a result, Halliburton set the cement" etc.   These are not objective facts;, someone told someone else that workers claimed something.  That makes it a third-hand rumor, and one propagated by a lawyer trying to make a case.  It is no more worthy of inclusion in this article than any other third-hand rumor floating around out there, no matter who quotes it, and possibly less worthy because of its questionable source (the lawyer).  I'm removing it from the article and request that you don't turn this into a revert war.  If you want it included, please ask for more opinions before doing so.  So far it's two to one. --EECEE (talk) 18:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I provided a reliable source with relevant information. If you don't like the way I phrased or included that information, I would welcome your suggestions on improvement. Beyond that, I suggest you try to be constructive instead of just immediately deleting anything you think is imperfect. By the way, this isn't a democracy. Swakeman (talk) 23:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Really, what is it, a theocracy?  You continue to insert unsupported rumor as fact.  This is not appropriate for a Wiki article.--EECEE (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I continue to replace a fact, cited with the relevant reliable source, that at least one journalist has referenced this idea. As to democracy, I suggest you read: Don't revert due to "no consensus" and perhaps reverting. -- Swakeman (talk) 23:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No, you continued to present an unsupported rumor as fact. I edited for accuracy to prevent a revert war.  It's still an unsupported rumor propagated by a lawyer with an agenda and included  in an opinion piece/rant. As I suggested to your "friend" with the URL, if you want to have a section devoted to "Rumors" go right ahead, but include them all.--EECEE (talk) 23:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh and by the way, Swakeman, that "no consensus" rule just means one should state a substantive reason for a revert, which has been true in every case. Try again. --EECEE (talk) 07:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm perfectly fine with your modification as it stands now.-- Swakeman (talk) 00:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It simply makes clear this is an unsupported rumor coming from a biased source. It still doesn't belong in the article and  I'm pretty sure it will come out when the article is cleaned up or the actual facts come out, whichever is sooner.--EECEE (talk) 00:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see a leading news media source used in conjunction with the truthout.org citation. If that's not possible I have serious doubts as to the validity or appropriateness in the article.--Labattblueboy (talk) 03:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see something besides a third-hand unsupported rumor published in a rant piece, no matter who publishes it. After all, I'm sure we can find plenty of sources that have published rumors that it was greenies/North Koreans/etc. who sabotaged the rig...that doesn't make them anything but unsupported rumors. --EECEE (talk) 07:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That's absurd. Another high-caliber editor already decided on the Wikipedia:Reliable Sources talk page that truthout was a FINE source! 24.255.165.125 (talk) 03:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh please. The editor thought it was an acceptable source generally.  Nothing about rant pieces published by that source.  As you perfectly well know.--EECEE (talk) 07:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I just want to add that I don't think that any of the comments here against this quote being included are impeaching truthout.org as a source for quotable material. The fact does remain though that this specific article linked to truthout.org is a very laden opinionated piece. We can't just select part of this and ignore the rest. If we were to include parts of this article we should also include that: BP is cheap and it is deadly cheap. We should include that the previous report by BP regarding the safety of offshore drilling was all a lie. We should wonder whether BP painted the capsules green like their gas stations. And finally, we should wonder whether Becnel told the author of this article the actual circumstances which led to this unfortunate incident. We cannot ignore the nature encompassing an entire article in the selective basis of a quote. Either the entire article is quote worthy or else it is not. GaussianCopula (talk) 07:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I dunno, if the New York Times reported -as part of a regular news item - that a plaintfiff's lawyer said an unnamed "worker" told him they were performing a hula dance when the well blew, would that be a quote worth including? To me, it's the unsupported speculation, not just the source repeating it. --EECEE (talk) 00:55, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Correction: a blowout is not a fire
The section on "Explosion and fire" has this passage: 'had accumulated inside the marine riser and as it came up it "expanded rapidly and ignited", an event known as a blowout.' This isn't right. A blowout is an uncontrolled flow from a well, whether it is on fire or not. Not sure how it should be fixed, but it needs it. Marzolian (talk) 22:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request - update to Pre-spill precautions
Requesting that additional info be added to the "Pre-spill precautions" section detailing the Interior Department granting an exemption to BP from a detailed environmental impact analysis last year:

Pre-spill precautions

In February 2009, BP filed a 52-page exploration and environmental impact plan for the Macondo well with the federal Minerals Management Service, an arm of the U.S. Interior Department that oversees offshore drilling. The plan stated that it was "unlikely that an accidental surface or subsurface oil spill would occur from the proposed activities" and that "due to the distance to shore (48 miles) and the response capabilities that would be implemented, no significant adverse impacts are expected".[45]

(start of new paragraph)

After concluding that a massive oil spill was unlikely, the Interior Department exempted BP's Gulf of Mexico drilling operation from a detailed environmental impact analysis last year. The decision by the department's Minerals Management Service (MMS) to give BP's lease at Deepwater Horizon a "categorical exclusion" from the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) on April 6, 2009 -- and BP's lobbying efforts just 11 days before the explosion to expand those exemptions -- show that neither federal regulators nor the company anticipated an accident of the scale of the one unfolding in the gulf.

(end of new paragraph)

Although the BP wellhead had a blowout preventer (BOP) installed, it was not fitted with additional remote-control or acoustically-activated triggers for use in case of an emergency requiring a rig to be evacuated: it did have a "deadman" switch designed to automatically cut the pipe and seal the well if communication from the rig is lost, but this switch did not activate.[46] Both Norway and Brazil require the device on all offshore rigs, but when the Minerals Management Service considered requiring the remote device, a report commissioned by the agency, as well as drilling companies, questioned its cost (approximately $500,000) and effectiveness.[46] In 2003 the agency ultimately determined that the device would not be required because rigs had other back-up systems to cut off a well.[46][47]

DLCruise (talk) 04:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done Text edited/added. Sorry for the inconvenience with the semi-protection. jonkerz♠ 04:29, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Was/Is
The Deepwater Horizon is owned by Transocean, even though it may be a wreck at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, at least until such time that the insurance underwriter, if any, pays Transocean for the loss. That's the law. Unless someone can come up with a citation that the payment has already been made, it should be kept in the present tense. I've changed it here and at Deepwater Horizon oil spill a couple of times already, and some editors keep reverting it.&mdash;QuicksilverT @ 16:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. International Maritime Law, and the sources cited, clearly reflect the wreck of the rig is still owned by Transocean.  N2e (talk) 18:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Deepwater Horizon is no longer a rig, its a wreck. If you want to include that Transocean still owns the wreck and have a source to do so, fill your boots. Personal interpretation (original research) of maritime law is however unwanted.--Labattblueboy (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Have another beer, Labattblueboy, and go take a long walk off of a short pier.&mdash;QuicksilverT @ 14:32, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Transocean owned and owns it until a reliable source tells us otherwise. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  20:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There needs to be a source that says something one way or the other to merit a change and frankly I haven't seen a media piece that addresses the issue regarding ownership. I entirely agree that Transocean likely still owns the wreck. However, that element of text, at current, has nothing to do with the issue or ownership but rather that the Deepwater Horizon is no longer a rig and is now a wreck. Past tense is appropriate under such conditions.--Labattblueboy (talk) 02:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is a source that says it was Transocean event: Gulf of Mexico oil spill: Transocean on the block over rig safety record in a reliable source, The Daily Telegraph (UK).  Of course, Wikipedia cannot determine "truth" -- but at this time it is as valid to say that this is a Transocean disaster as it is a BP disaster.  Here is the relevant quotation from the UK Telegraph news story:  BP says "This was not our accident. This was not our drilling rig. This was not our equipment. It was not our people, our systems or our processes. This was Transocean's rig. Their systems. Their people. Their equipment" N2e (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * BP CEO Tony Hayward can blame Transocean if he wants and surely it's going to cost that company a lot of money too. However, in this video statement he acknowledges that it's BP's problem. The oil company obtains permission from the US government to be there, and is fully responsible if anything goes wrong. Here is the plan they filed with the Minerals Management Service. the Oil Pollution Act of 1990, BP has responsibility to pay for clean up of the spill ...". This BP release refers to the "the cost to the MC252 owners". That includes BP and its minority partners, Anadarko and Mitsui. I think that makes this a BP spill. Marzolian (talk) 01:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Blowout or Suspicious?
It is inappropriate to delete "blowout" as the cause of the spill. However, if a proper source can be located, it might be appropriate to characterize the blowout as suspicious. --N419BH (talk) 21:25, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

it was in several (us)papers, among other things that a safety instrument was replaced by a testing one. if i stumble into it again i get back on it. one (us)paper even stated that it was explicitly found as a cause. some days ago though..i second suspicious for the case you make.80.57.43.99 (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Workers kept at sea, then confined to hotel rooms and coerced into signing documents
NPR had a lengthy report on surviving workers kept at sea for 15 h, then confined to hotel rooms, not allowed to contact their families and coerced into signing documents by Transocean lawyers. Does anybody have a print source on this and want to put in the article? I have real stuff I must do right now. Abductive (reasoning) 19:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm all for inclusion if we can find a source. --N419BH (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Here it is on NPR's website. --N419BH (talk) 19:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be referred to as duress?Smallman12q (talk) 02:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * These claims are denied by Transocean. Beagel (talk) 16:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

60 Minutes segment- Blowout: The Deepwater Horizon Disaster
This segment was on 60 Minutes last night: Blowout: The Deepwater Horizon Disaster. It explains some of the mishaps leading to the disaster. --Millstoner (talk) 14:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Lease rights to Deepwater Horizon
Current, states "leased to BP 75%, Anadarko 25% and Mitsui 10%", which adds up to 110%. This is impossible, citation 15, says that BP is actually leasing 65%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.2.12 (talk) 18:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The "missing, presumed dead"
must have families with merpeople by now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Athinker (talk • contribs) 15:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, they are dead. Just call them dead. Every other source is calling them dead. It looks creepy to refer to them as "missing." They are not missing. They are dead, despite the fact that bodies were not recovered. 64.142.90.33 (talk) 07:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

"presumed dead" is factually correct. stating that they are dead (implying fact) cannot be verified. just because their whereabouts haven't come to public attention doesn't mean they are dead. there may well be good reasons why they don't want to be found. if i were in their position i would possibly fear being found by the responsible companies, not from my wrongdoing (assuming i were innocent) but from mistreatment and legal threats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.23.146 (talk) 07:38, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Spill flow rate internal reference
I agree that the wording in the lead should be clear that there is much debate and a wide range of estimates, but citing another section of the same article is extremely bad practice. There is a link to that section (which I just fixed) directly below where Aalox added this internal citation, which should be sufficient. Any citations must adhere to Wikipedia's policy on verifiability and guideline on reliability, which a circular citation to Wikipedia fails completely. There are other ways to resolve disagreements about content.--~TPW 15:47, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Aalox post the following message to my talk page, which I am copying here to keep the discussion in one place:
 * Would you mind replace the reference you removed from the lead of Deepwater Horizon oil spill. That particular sentance has been the focus of a great deal of controversy, and I wanted to make it as clear as possible where those numbers are coming from (a summary of all the estimates detailed in Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill).  The reference isn't even that cicular, it is the lead referecing a subsection.  I know that it isn't standard and proper to do so, but I really wanted to WP:Ignore all rules and have that in there until things calm down on this article.


 * By having that reference in there, I think it will stop people from going back and forth in a circle fighting about it that sentance, and productively moving forward with the expansion and refinement of this article.


 * Thanks, -  Aalox (Say Hello • My Work) 15:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ignoring all rules is definitely the way to go if you achieve consensus here to do so. I don't think an inline citation achieves your goal of making sure that the lead reflects the entire, broad range of credible estimates.  Instead it harms the credibility of the article by saying, "we did our homework by looking further down the page."  Citations are only used for citing reliable sources, not as a way to provide a link to another part of the page.  Is there a news source which discusses how diverse the estimates are?  That would be the best option in my opinion.--~TPW 17:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't notice the conversation you started here. A news article discussing the diversity of the estimates would be very good and I'll keep an eye out for one.  Barring that, if it happens again, I support adding a temporary internal reference if others agree. -  Aalox  (Say Hello • My Work) 17:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't use an inline citation, since it's not necessary. Just link "numerous estimates" to the appropriate section and you will have the same effect. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 08:00, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Ownership needs to add up to 100%
Under the Background, deepwater horizon heading it states  "the rig was owned by Transocean Ltd. and leased to BP 75%, Anadarko 25% and Mitsui 10% until September 2013"

It should say "the rig was owned by Transocean Ltd. and leased to BP 65%, Anadarko 25% and Mitsui 10% until September 2013"

The existing does not add up to 100%. After reading reference 15, I decided BP 65% is correct.

Wog400 (talk) 22:45, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done -- &oelig; &trade; 01:09, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The rig was to leased to BP who was the only operator of the Macondo Prospect. The Macondo prospect was owned by BP 65%, Anadarko 25% and Mitsui 10% under a federal lease. Please do not confuse these two things. Beagel (talk) 03:50, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Casualties: victims' names are subjects of civil and criminal investigations and lawsuits, and so belong in Casualties section
I think deletion of the names of the victims is premature and ill-advised. Their names will be prominently figured in both civil and criminal investigations and litigation for years to come and so the mention of their names in this article helps ensure WP relevancy. Deletion of the two references establishing both who they were and what their roles were on the rig is inappropriate (and, I think worth noting, especially insensitive to their survivors in any case, as the first source cited below makes abundantly clear). Already discussed: Talk:Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill/Archive_2#Casualties

I acknowledge the very helpful edit summary that "even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be. Unless news coverage of an individual goes beyond the context of a single event, our coverage of that individual should be limited to the article about that event, in proportion to their importance to the overall topic" (section 5 of WP:NOTNEWS) and also that "Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others" (section 1 & 4 of WP:NOTDIR), but respectfully submit that the names of these human beings in the Casualties section are at least as important as the names of the threatened species in the Ecological effects section. Suggest revert if we can achieve a consensus that these names are indeed an exception to these WP guidelines (not laws), and for the above reasons. Anyone else have an opinion on this question? Paulscrawl (talk) 20:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The 11 men killed in the explosion were: Jason Anderson, 35, Midfield, Texas; Aaron Dale Burkeen, 37, Philadelphia, Mississippi; Donald Clark, 34, Newellton, Louisiana; Stephen Curtis, 39, Georgetown, Louisiana; Gordon Jones, 28, Baton Rouge, Louisiana; Roy Wyatt Kemp, 27, Jonesville, Louisiana; Karl Klepping, 38, Natchez, Mississippi; Blair Manuel, 56, Eunice, Louisiana; Dewey Revette, 48, State Line, Mississippi; Shane Roshto, 22, Franklin County, Mississippi; and Adam Weise, 24, Yorktown, Texas. Jones and Manuel were employees of M-I-Swaco, while the other nine worked for Transocean.

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