Talk:Defender of the Faith/Archive 1

Word order
And is it Fidei defensor or Defensor fidei. I find both forms in Google. It seems that FD is preferred in English and DF in other languages (!?) -- Error


 * Charles has merely stated he'd like to change the title, it hasn't been changed, and neither version belongs to him yet. Word order doesn't matter in Latin, and that's the language it's in... -- Someone else 01:56 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * But word order does matter in Wikipedia and I don't know wheter I should move the page or make a redirection. -- Error


 * Well, the Pope used "Fidei defensor". But you could always make a redirect from Defensor fidei if you like. -- Someone else 03:34 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * That's what I asked. Are you sure about the Pope usage? -- Error


 * You can see the original text of the bull at François Velde's Heraldica site. Because Latin uses suffixes to indicate grammatical case, the spelling changes, but it happens to use the F word before the D word, and when Parliament legislated the English and Latin styles of the various monarchs who have used the title, the Latin wording was "Fidei Defensor". -- Someone else 22:14 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * OK:
 * Majestati tuae titulum hunc, videlicet Fidei Defensorem, donare decrevimus, prout te tali titulo per praesentes insignimus, mandantes omnibus Christifidelibus, ut Majestatem tuam hoc titulo nominent, & cum ad eam scribent, post dictionem Regi adjungant Fidei defensori.
 * There's no arguing with Popes. Thank you for the pointer. -- Error
 * Also, I don't believe anyone's mentioned this yet, but I'm not sure if the capitalization is correct. Currently the page is called "Fidei defensor". Following the Wikipedia capitalization guidelines, if "Fidei defensor" is an English loan word, it should be capitalized according to standard English practice. If not, it should be capitalized according to standard Latin practice, which I'm unfamiliar with. I suspect the latter, but not being familiar with this term, and not knowing anything about Latin, I can't be certain. 128.208.150.188 (talk) 04:00, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The part on this apge about fidei defensor being the canon lawyer commonly known as the Devil's Advocate, I believe, is wrong. The official title for the Devil's Advocate is Promotor Fidei or Promotor of the Faith. The Defensor Fidei and Promotor Fidei are not the same thing. Check the Catholic Encyclopaedia for this one, for example.


 * That checks out, so I'm moving it. (Next time, you can do that yourself, by the way.) -- Toby Bartels 16:08, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

HRE
Didn't the Holy Roman Emperor have a similar title to this too?

what a tosser
HRH Charles, Prince of Wales has said that he would like to recast the title as Defender of Faith to avoid the appearance of favouring one religion above another.

- What a tosser! The whole idea was to defend THE faith, by recasting you would be admitting failure to defend THE faith over all others!

--- @error: It is the genitivus conjugation of fide: fidei = of the faith (no plural)

October 17?
A lot of sources give October 11, 1521, not the 17th, for the conferment of the title on Henry. Alpheus

Charles modifying "Defender of the Faith"
The text currently states that modifying "Defender of the Faith" within the royal style would require a modification of the Coronation Act 1688. It is not clear why someone would believe that to be the case. The quoted statement does not say that Charles would refuse to uphold the church or administer it, or even to take the oaths related to the Church of England; it merely states that he wants to style himself differently.

The royal style has in modern times been modified by a combination of an act of parliament and a royal proclamation by the Queen-in-Council: Parliament authorizes the Queen to make the change, then she does does so. The most recent act, the Royal Titles Act 1953, 1 & 2 Eliz. 2 c. 9, appears to give the monarch carte blanche change the royal style in respect of the United Kingdom. As such, Charles would merely need to change the style through a royal proclamation. See Royal Titles Act 1953 and Royal Proclamation

Finally, the comment that the proposed change would "bring into question" whether the Defender portion of the title would still relate to the Church of England is unnecessary. The whole point is that it would not.

I am therefore removing the last two sentences of that paragraph. -Rrius (talk) 09:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

My knowledge is to small to enable me to make an alteration here. However I understand there is no "the" Latin and this should be translated as "Defender of Faith" - a much more catholic (lower case "c") view of it!Osborne 09:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC) Correction: "to" > "too".

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BetacommandBot (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

originally Latin
It's not originally Latin. It is Latin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 21:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoever wrote it was trying to say the title was originally rendered in Latin, where as it is now more often rendered in English. The construction was inartful, though, so I've effected your proposed change. -Rrius (talk) 21:33, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Contested Line
I found the following line in this article under Fidei Defensor. Since it appears to be contested, albeit incorrectly, I decided to transfer it to the talk page pending further review as per Wikipedia guidelines.
 * However, in 1544 (this can't be right: Henry VIII ruled until 1547), the Parliament of England conferred the title "Defender of the Faith", then mainly against Catholicism, so the inverse of the :original papal grant, on King Edward VI and his successors, now the defenders of the Anglican faith, of which they (except the Catholic 'renegade' Mary :I) remain the Supreme Governors (formally above the Archbishop of Canterbury as Primate).

128.208.150.188 (talk) 03:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Only date was contested, so tag added.--Yopie (talk) 13:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Suggested historical reference material / external link
Inviting contributors to expand the article using the following account / external link drawn from Henry's State Papers of October 1521: --Bhogrok (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Henry VIII: October 1521, 11-20', Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, Volume 3: 1519-1523 (1867), pp. 692-709. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=91076