Talk:Defense industry of Iran/Archive 2

Questionable source
I notice that there is a PDF cited in this article listing Iranian equipment. Please be careful: the full, unedited original appears to be at Tel Aviv University, but has differences in content. —Michael Z. 2006-07-21 23:00 Z 
 * After a quick comparison between the weapons lists I see no difference, other than Fajr-3 missile not being mentioned under "Weapons of mass-destruction". ArmanJan 23:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Definition of "defence products indigenously developed"
New concern and editing conflict: There is a great deal of hardware and items that are not really (IMHO) indigenously developed by Iran. i.e. A reverse engineered croatale or rapier missile is not indigenously developed. Nor are the Shabaviz 206 helicopters or the Boragh APCs. Same goes for AK47s or G3 rifles.

My suggestion is to change the leading text in this area to "The following is a partial list of defence products manufactured or indigenously developed by Iran." Furthermore, with regards to commenting, where products are reverse engineered we say so, where there is controversy (i.e. with the Hoot missile) we also say so. Upgrades are also listed, but not as the product itself but as the upgrade. Thus, the line "Chieftain (upgraded)" become "Cheftain (ERA Upgrade)" or the upgrade name because Iran does not sell the tank, but it does sell the upgrade.Tototom 06:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * When you 'reverse engineer' something, 1. you first have to open the equipment, 2. register all its parts and the place in which it goes, 3. then indigenously develop all the needed parts, 4. with the registered information, put your parts together to make your own model 5. if that succeeds, you have reverse engineered it. You then have an indigenously developed end product. The next step would be setting up the industrial operation to produce the equipment on a large scale. To say that Iran never developed a wheel because X & Y already made one in the year 1650, and Iran only copied that, is beserk. Everything that is made in this world is based on previous models that have been made better. By the way,I will re-add F-4, F-5, and F-14 under "Upgrade & repair" section. As you may read in the list, Iran upgrades those.(note: the Chieftain gets built from scratch in Iran (reverse engineered), and "ERA" is not the only thing that gets added to the new model. ArmanJan 09:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly an achievement to have reverse-engineered and manufactured a weapon, as ArmanJan notes. But it is not the achievement that is commonly understood to be connoted by the words "indigenously developed," which implies less copying and more creation. So I agree with Tototom's suggestion to note when a product has been reverse-engineered from or based upon another.

I also agree with Tototom that upgrades should be noted as upgrades, and products as products. PRRfan 13:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sensible. The AK-47 was certainly developed in the Soviet Union, not Iran.  Developing the industrial process to duplicate a product is not developing the product.  —Michael Z. 2006-07-22 15:29 Z 


 * I agree.... suprisingly. Iran may have developed the industrial process to duplicate the product, but it is only manufacturing it at the end of the day. It is not indiginously developing the product. Also check the following dictionary definitions:

'''Source: 2002 Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: in·dig·e·nous 1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment''' AND ''' Main Entry: de·vel·op·ment 1 : the action or process of developing.'''

The key words in indigenous are "having originated in" and being produced. None of the above examples "originated" in Iran, but they are produced. Thus iran is a manufacturer, but not an indigenous developer for those products. Tototom 14:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As can be read in the proof that I provided, and in "Michael Z"'s version of the same document. These weapons are listed as indigenously developed weapons. Otherwise, you should also change the status of the first few missiles and jets supposedly made by the U.S, Russian, France, and Britain (reverse engineering and stolen information from Germany to make these weapons). What "indigenously developed" "implies" in your mind is irrelevant, look up its meaning in any dictionary and you will see that this does falls under development and industry, and I should certainly know as a teacher of English. ArmanJan 21:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The document you introduced doesn't prove anything. It has no publication information, and comes from a public-upload site.  The one you call "mine" is simply what I found with Google.  It also doesn't prove anything, although at least it comes from a University web site and hasn't been ham-handedly butchered by someone trying to create their own "facts".  How and where did you find that document, ArmanJan?  —Michael Z. 2006-07-22 23:34 Z 

In your version of the document, on page 19 last line it says that Iran manufactures 2-4 Shabaviz 206's anually. On page 5, 8 lines from below, it has listed Boragh as indigenously developed. On page 6, about 15 lines from below Crotale and Rapier are listed as indigenously developed, and it is mentioned that they are reverse engineered. There you go. ArmanJan 23:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hm, I wish you would stop referring to the document from the university web site as "my version"—it's merely something I found while trying to determine the publisher of the PDF you introduced. Are you trying to side-step the fact that you put forward an obviously doctored partial PDF file?  Where or how did you find that one?  —Michael Z. 2006-07-23 18:22 Z 


 * Frankly, neither or  prove anything. There is no references in the material or any real substance - i could have made that and posted it if I wanted to. I wouldnt say it's a good source.

Furthermore, the fact that it says Iran is "Manufacturing (indigenously developed)" doesn't mean much and is open to interpretation: What it could be trying to say is that 1) Iran developed the manufacturing ability indiginously, OR 2) iran is indiginously developing the product. To me that remains unclear, however I prefer the first definition because it says iran indiginously developed RPG-7s... which last time I checked were Russian. Tototom 14:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If you go to the website of Tel Aviv University, you would see that this is actually from Military balance 2003-2004 with certain additions by Tel Aviv University. There is a lot more explanation on their site. (The "Military Balance" book is even used by government officials (I saw Blair with a copy in his hand), it is also used as reference on many Wikipedia pages. ArmanJan 14:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Armanjan once said:

The rules Verifiability state that ""Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source," and Reliable_sources specifically mentions, "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." This source isn't from a reliable place, it has a high probability of being self published, it references no-reliable other source. Lets just drop it from the argument. Tototom 06:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * (Further clarification of "indigenous development") Indigenously developed means that one has, with one's own abilities, reached a (end) product. For that reason, "production under license" is separated from "indigenous development". When one produces a weapon under license, its technical specifications, plans, and its industrial procession is explained in detail so that the end-user (i.e. Iran) may freely produce (under license) at his own digression. For that reason, 'RPG-7' is listed as "indigenously developed" (also see source). ArmanJan 14:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, ArmanJan, but the fact simply is that "indigenously developed" is widely understood to mean developed more or less from scratch, not reverse-engineered or developed from transferred technology. PRRfan 16:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry Arman... Im siding with PRRfan on this. HOWEVER, as a compromise: If you feel so strongly about it I would be happy to see (indigenously developed manufacturing ability) next to some of the products. Tototom 06:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to apologise, I never had any doubt over your motives or position. As for Verifiability, it is verifiable because not only did I give you the online version, but so did another person. This book is cited by many wikipedia articles, and it is accepted as a verifiable source. For example see List_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops "All data is from the 2003-2004 Military Balance, unless stated otherwise.". What proof do you have that "indigenous development" does not include Iran in this case? My proof is any good dictionary.
 * de·vel·op
 * v. de·vel·oped, de·vel·op·ing, de·vel·ops
 * v. tr.
 * 1. To bring from latency to or toward fulfillment : an instructor who develops the capabilities of each student.
 * 2. a. To expand or enlarge : developed a national corporation into a worldwide business.
 * b. To aid in the growth of ; strengthen: exercises that develop muscles.
 * c. To improve the quality of ; refine: develops his recipes to perfection; an extra year of study to develop virtuosic technique.
 * 3. To cause to become more complex or intricate ; add detail and fullness to; elaborate: began with a good premise but developed it without imagination.


 * Synonyms: development, evolution, progress
 * These nouns mean a progression from a simpler or lower to a more advanced, mature, or complex form or stage : the development of an idea into reality; the evolution of a plant from a seed; attempts made to foster social progress.


 * The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


 * develop (GROW)   /dI"vel.@p/ verb [I or T]
 * to (cause something to) grow or change into a more advanced, larger or stronger form.


 * development   /dI"vel.@p.m@nt/ noun
 * 1 [U] when someone or something grows or changes and becomes more advanced: healthy growth and development
 * The program traced the development of popular music through the ages.
 * The region suffers from under-/over-development (= having too little/much industry).
 * a development project (= one to help improve industry) in Pakistan
 * 2 [C] a recent event which is the latest in a series of related events:
 * an important development in the fuel crisis
 * Phone me if there are any new developments.
 * See also development at develop (START).


 * ''Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

ArmanJan 08:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the consensus is against ArmanJan. Less chatter, more editing! —Michael Z. 2006-07-24 08:57 Z 

Reverse engineered weapons

 * 1. Western countries do not give away weapons licenses to Iran. (illegal,should not)
 * 2. Western countries do not sell weapons to Iran. (illegal (should not))
 * 3. Iran does not make 'duplicates', it reverse engineers a weapon and makes a better model under a different name.


 * Example: What is listed as "RPG-7" is not actually the RPG-7 that you are familiar with, Iran makes their own model.
 * In Iran they get called by a different name, but it takes time to find all these names, so just give the page some time and i'll figure it all out.


 * ArmanJan 16:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, RPG-7 is one of the few weapons that still does get called "RPG-7". However if you see a picture of one of Iran's RPG-7's you'll see that they are slightly different.
 * ArmanJan 16:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems as though we could deal with this in several ways; for example:

When we don't know the name of the Iranian product, but do know its genesis: or
 * 7.62mm rifle, reverse engineered from Heckler & Koch G3
 * Heckler & Koch G3 knockoff

When we know the name of the Iranian product, and its genesis:
 * Shahab-1, based on Soviet SS-1/Scud-B

When the Iranian product has kept the name of the thing it was copied from:
 * RPG-7, reverse engineered from Soviet RPG-7

PRRfan 17:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * 7.62mm rifle, reverse engineered from Heckler & Koch G3 and RPG-7, reverse engineered from Soviet RPG-7 are acceptable to me (second one is a bit lame). Maybe: (reverse engineered, makes own version)
 * ArmanJan 17:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a good approach. It makes moot the whole question of what belongs under the heading "indigenously-developed" by simply offering more specific information about each weapon, where it is known.  It may be worth mentioning that many of the details are obscured by official military secrecy.  —Michael Z. 2006-07-24 20:06 Z 

ArmanJan the only thing I edited was your misunderstanding of wiki markups. If you indent with the space bar then your comments are unreadable and boxed when saved (see the word "and" above). If you want to indent a line use the colon ":" each colon used indents a little more.L0b0t 15:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What I do or do not intent is none of your business, do not touch my, or anyone elses comments ever again. ArmanJan 15:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The word I used was "indent" referring to indentation of sentences. If you INDENT with the space bar then other users can not read your comments. You "INTENT" is none of my concern and I will not nor have I ever edited anyones comments for content or "intent" only style, spelling, punctuation, and grammar.L0b0t 16:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

You were warned but you do not heed. Touch my comments one more time and I will complain about you on the Admin board. ArmanJan 17:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I am only editing your comments for format. As i have told you if you markup incorrectly then your comments can not be viewed by other people.  Don't you want people to read what you write?L0b0t 14:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Arman, just give it up and stop being such a pain in the ***. Tototom 05:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

CLEANUP TIME!!!
I think this page needs a big cleanup. We've listed dozens of products and weapons systems, however there are very FEW sources and references that Iran is actually domestically manufacturing these.

My gut feeling is that many of these actually need to be on the Iranian Military's hardware pages as opposed to the military industry page.

As a result, ive stuck the cleanup, original research, and accuracy flags on this. Any opinions?


 * I think you are right. Every day it seems as if there are more redlinked weapons with silly names on the list.  My feeling is that lists of things should be avoided if at all possible.  Maybe a para about each weapon type and a link to the hardware article?  The dislike of lists purely subjective however, and I would love to hear some other opinions. L0b0t 11:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Anon edits to the list of equipment
Please do not add anything to this list without also citing sources. Several anon editors keep posting unverified weapon systems, and equipment. It is starting to get out of hand. L0b0t 16:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup suggestions
I have done some clean up on the missile section of this article. I strongly suggest that the naval missiles are also included in this section since they are essentialy surface to surface missiles. I did not remove the fajr rockets- they are not missiles and should not be included here. I also added air to surface and air to air missiles as they are being indeginously produced (or manufactured) in IranUser:Ali Soltani 0:38 am October 26 (UTC)

Untagging and cleanup
I've moved all the unsourced calims to the section below. These should now be easy to either source or delete. Thanks for last source Smackmonkey, it was a good read. Cheers. L0b0t 18:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Helicopters

 * Shahed 274

Unmanned aerial vehicles

 * Sahand UAV
 * Faraz I
 * Faraz II
 * Sabokbal

Intermediate range (IRBM)
Intermediate range missiles are considered to have a range between 3000 and 5500 kilometers.


 * Ghadr-110 - two-stage solid-propellant strategic IRBM with a range of 3,000 km

Medium range (MRBM)
Medium range missiles are considered to have a range between 1000 and 3000 kilometers.
 * Fajr-3 - triple-warhead MRBM

Short range (SRBM)
Short range missiles are considered to have a range up to 1000 kilometers.
 * Zelzal-3
 * Zelzal-1
 * Fajr-2 - artillery rocket
 * Oghab - artillery rocket

Anti-tank missiles

 * Toophan 1
 * Toophan 2
 * Toophan 3
 * Towsan 1 - copy of Soviet AT-5 Spandrel

Surface-to-air missile

 * Shahab Thaqeb - copy of the Chinese HQ-7 missile system
 * Saeqeh our wiki is unsourced

Armoured personnel carrier

 * Sayyad
 * BTR-60 - upgraded copy of Soviet BTR-60

Artillery

 * Raad 1--- our wiki is unsourced

Pistols

 * PC9 - combat pistol

Misc

 * Gas masks
 * Bullet Proof Vests

Destroyers

 * Mowj

Frigates

 * Sina-1

Submarines

 * Ghadir
 * Sabehat-15
 * Nahang

Patrol craft

 * Ashura-- this is a demon and a holiday.
 * Paykan--- this is a CAR!!!
 * Tareq
 * Zulfaqar
 * MIG-S-1800
 * MIG-S-1900
 * MIG-S-2600
 * MIG-S-3700 LCU

Naval missiles

 * Kowsar---our wiki is absolute nonsense
 * Fajre-Darya - video camera-guided missile
 * Nasr
 * Thaqeb --- our wikiarticle is also unsourced

Electronics

 * Fire control system - for T-72 MBTs
 * Radio transceivers - copy of U.S. models
 * Training simulators - for aircraft and tanks
 * Hasib radar
 * Basir-110 AD radar
 * HMS-100/200/400/500 - electro-optical surveillance systems
 * Imaging camera - for satellites
 * Laser detector
 * Night vision systems