Talk:Defiance (TV series)/Archive 1

Making of Defiance
A documentary program on the making of Defiance just aired today (Apr 13) on Showcase in Canada. Might be worth mentioning this (presumably the special was made to air on Syfy). 70.72.211.35 (talk) 20:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Video game
Why is there no mention of the video game? --Matt723star (talk) 01:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That is a very good point. Considering that the whole point is a TV Series where the events of the series affect the game. I guess perhaps it is because it has it's own article. But, given that it is such a closely related topic, they should (in theory) be merged and the page renamed. Especially given that it's the first of its kind. -- MisterShiney    ✉    21:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Mutants and Votans
First off, that is a LOT of background information, almost worthy of it's own page. Secondly, I notice that quite a bit of it may be copy/pasted from elsewhere. This needs to be changed ASAP. I would, but I don't have much time at the moment. So, if anyone could do something about it that would be great! -- MisterShiney    ✉    21:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not "copy-paste" it; there's only so many ways to re-word information that has only been given once. Most of it is background information given on the official website, as well as promotional background info released on the official facebook and tumblr feeds.  It wasn't simply copy-pasted, but it would take a while to get all of the citations in order; the goal was to "get the ball rolling" for cleanup later.  Yeah, it probably should have its own page - maybe not "Votans" but "Defiance - Setting" I don't know.--173.2.197.76 (talk) 02:42, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Episodes
On line here, SyFy is carrying the pilot as one episode. we should do the same.-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  00:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Hulu is carrying it as one episode, no commercial breaks at the halfway point. Zap2it listed it as one two-hour episode. DVR listings had it as one two-hour episode. Heck, even the viewing ratings here for both "parts" are identical. 173.26.212.73 (talk) 00:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thirded, seems conclusive and reliably sourced.121.73.221.187 (talk) 10:26, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Done; we'll see if anyone complains.-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  17:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but if it's one episode, why is it number 1-2? There are also 13 episode slots shown, but if you do consider the pilot to be two episodes, then there will only be 12 "episodes," not 13."151.148.122.100 (talk) 17:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

After we discussed this and I updated the numbers, someone went back in and changed the numbering again. Now it's back to what we agreed on. Jim in Georgia Contribs  Talk  18:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I saw that, I changed it back and then Tiller54 then changed it back again. I have slapped a notice on their page. It wasn't on. -- MisterShiney    ✉    19:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the references provided, as well as IMDB, lists the pilot as two episodes. If you're going to list it as one episode, you'll need to reduce the total number of episodes from 13 to 12. Getting the total number of episodes wrong - not on. Tiller54 (talk) 20:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * IMDB is not for all intents and purposes considered a Reliable source. As for the so called other source, without you providing a link to it, I for one, don't know what you are referencing too. But regardless, the official website is the one that reigns and the one we use to fall back on when sources contradict each other. MisterShiney    ✉    20:12, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I've done it myself. Tiller54 (talk) 21:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

IMDB also has the titles of the last two episodes

Episode 3 description says: "Alak defends her, and Datak kills the attacking bugs. Alak's defense of Christie improves relations between the McCawley and Tarr families." Actually, Alak falls on his butt and Christie defends him. Later Datak tells Christie's dad Alek defended her, and she goes along with it.

Listing Votan languages in infobox
Is it necessary to list the Votan languages as one of the original broadcasting languages of the series? Granted I haven't seen the pilot yet and it is possible the languages might be used so often that it warrants inclusion, but I doubt it can be called the primary language of the series. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  23:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I waffle. I think it's significant that the producers went to the trouble to hire a linguist. I'd say let it ride for a few episodes.-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  01:03, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Songs and Music
Songs and music are often really hard to find until a soundtrack comes out, but i found this info: "...if anyone's seen the pilot when the Castithan teenagers are dancing, that Groovy song that's playing is a Bear McCreary original composition that he wrote and recorded. That will be on a soundtrack album." Bear McCreary did the soundtrack for the video game, i guess he's doing the show too. He also does The Walking Dead and the new DaVinci series. Other songs i've seen mentioned from the first episode of Defiance are "Jackson" by Johnny Cash (which i heard) and "If I Didn't Care" by the Ink Spots. That info i saw on mobile and can't find the site again. Two songs used for trailers are "Radioactive" by Imagine Dragons (also covered elsewhere nicely by Lindsey Stirling and Pentatonix) and Jamie N Commons’ "Preacher." (I saw that one too and found the song on Amazon.) So i never did this before, hesitant to just post it on the "real" wiki page! :) Raucous Rollus (talk) 01:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Last names
If someone knows reliable sources for Irisa's and Kenya's last names, it would be nice to cite them. Kenya's is probably a logical conclusion, but...-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  20:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of sources, I removed the two last names.-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  14:49, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

St. Louis
Not counting the Arch, which parts of St. Louis are above ground?-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  20:56, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I recall seeing a tall building with a plague on it reading "Darby Building 1932" in the back of the speech stand. I can't find much online, but this link mentions a Darby Building at 5th and Olive.--  Auric    talk  01:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah that is what I saw also. The official website isn't very specific, it just ""on what used to be St.Louis" -- MisterShiney    ✉    08:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Oddities
I watched what I assumed was the third episode on April 30 at. What I saw does not match the plot of "Devil in the Dark". I can only assume I watched the episode "A Well Respected Man". As such I have posted a short summary.-- Auric    talk  18:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Categories
I went in to add the category "2010s American television series" and "2013 American television series debuts", only to discover that the later category is already there, but commented out. Why? --Suttkus (talk) 04:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Revision
Species section keeps getting deleted, I didn't add them, but I saw they were removed for not having citations, people can't add citations (from official site and official social media pages) if some dolt keeps deleting them. Just saying. Sue/Ban me. 67.175.38.234 (talk) 00:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, anon, and not worth banning/lawsuits/drawing-and-quartering, etc. I removed the species material for two reasons, one of which you pointed out was uncited. I have a sinking suspicion that a lot of the material was garnered from the online game which, while tangentially connected to the series, is not actually part of the series. You noticing the info about a given race isn't citable enough for inclusion. If some reviewer, speaking explicitly about the television series were to note details about the different races, then we have a citable source by which to add info - and only the info that is cited about the races in the tv series. Of not, we are out of luck.
 * The other reason is that the section was huge. It overpowered anything and everything else about the series, which the article should not do. Even if cited, it was far, far too long to remain in the form it was in. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:00, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Well done Jack. I wanted to do that ages ago but didnt have the cahones to remove such a large chunk of text. lol. I commend and approve of this edit. --  MisterShiney    ✉    19:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Separating race pages
I think based on the amount of info for each race, the fact that we have a season 2 coming and more info from the game, I think the race pages can be separated to maybe one of their own or separate pages. 122.150.167.84 (talk) 06:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea. But sources need to be found. -- MisterShiney    ✉    20:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've removed the section on races (twice now). This isn't because I don't that that the section might not have value in some form, but in its current, uncited form, it's overlong and threatens to overwhelm the rest of the article. If its pared down hugely and cited, it can return. Not until. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 11:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The section in question has just been restored by an IP-only editor. Since the initial removal and subsequent restoration counts as the start of the WP:BRD cycle, all editors are politely requested not to remove the section again until discussion takes place here as to the issues identified above.Vulcan&#39;s Forge (talk) 16:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, IP editors usually don't actually take the time to read the talk page, so I am guessing their revert was a knee-jerk reaction to the MMPORG game details being purged fromt eh article about a tv show. We need sources before that material can be re-added. This is not a fan-site. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, Jack, get this straight: this is *not* "information from the video game" - it's a combination of stuff they've said in aired episodes, and information given out on social media.  They've been striving to make it "multi-platform", and what happens is that after every episode they update the official Tumblr and Facebook feeds with information tidbits about the different alien races.  Though of course, your insistence on separating the TV show from the MMORPG is a bit odd given that one of the main selling points behind "Defiance" is that they're both in a shared universe (though I actually know nothing about the video game).  I'll come back with sourced citations later; yes, even I agree that the Votan section was becoming long enough to sustain its own article, particularly given that season 2 has been ordered.  The fact that you "removed it. Twice." is meaningless when others felt you were wrong to remove this information the first time.  I don't see the need to argue, though, as the information hasn't been lost but still exists in the history tab.--173.2.197.76 (talk) 07:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Rather than complaining I went ahead and made the page (seriously it took like 5 seconds) Species in Defiance Gosun (talk) 08:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC).


 * I don't see how that is going to help matters, apart from changing the location of the problem, Gosun. The info is still uncited. The anon makes several comments above in support of inclusion which should probably be addressed there - chief amongst them the problems of Synthesis; ie, taking facts noted in different episodes and stringing them together like pearls on a necklace. We as editors do not get to do that; we use sources that do.
 * My issue with having to remove the data twice is that after I removed it the first time, I came here an initiated/contributed to discussion here. Some reverters did not, which was the problem. Hopefully, it won't continue to be one - Jack Sebastian (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Episodes
As someone already stated, I think it's better for the episodes table to be removed to a new page since it's too long. And with a second season coming next year it will be even longer. What do you think? TeamGale (talk) 15:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I would agree with this. I've written a significant portion of the episode synopses and tried to keep them as brief as possible, without generating a copyvio by using verbatim episode descriptions from TVTimes or the like.Vulcan&#39;s Forge (talk) 16:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that would be the best solution for now. A new page listed only the episodes would be great so the main article won't be so long. And maybe later a seperate page for each episode can be created with more details. This will take some more time to be done. I could do it slowly if you agree to copy the synopses you already wrote for each episode and paste them to the new page. TeamGale (talk) 16:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that's premature. As the section title suggests, they are supposed to be edit summaries, not condensed version of the summaries. Let me see if I can shorten them down a bit before we get ahead of ourselves and start creating a slew of subsidiary pages. Lots of series wait until a second season is well underway before creating sub-articles. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've drastically shortened those episodes that I have personally seen, the intent being to summarize the episode without providing more than a summary. I have a feeling that there will be some who feel that I have purged too much. To those I suggest that perhaps writing an article for a given episode would be a good way to encompass all of the plot points and production information. Look at FA-level articles that detail episode summaries; they are exceptionally short. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You have taken far too much out of the summaries. Template:Episode list clearly states that summaries should ideally be between 100-300 words. With a few exceptions, the summaries you reduced were well within those guidelines (usually around 200 words or so). The summaries as you have them, most under a hundred words, are vague to the point of absurdity. Using examples of other FAs doesn't mean anything in particular, either. Just because other articles do it, doesn't mean we have to. I agree that the summaries would definitely have benefited from a little trimming, but you've gone way beyond that and now they are ridiculously short and unhelpful. I'm sure you also know that creating an episode article just to have a more detailed summary fails to meet the sufficient notability guidelines. If the episodes already had separate articles then I would be more inclined to agree with you. But there is no other place to put more detailed summaries at the moment, and the summaries you removed were, for the most part at least, well within the 100-300 word guidelines and didn't need to be touched at all. I would seriously reconsider what should and should not be included before you continue butchering them to the point of incoherency. -- SchrutedIt08 (talk) 06:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * My suggestion that we look to FA articles for examples of how better articles than this tend to lean towards brevity, not an argument about Other Stuff Existing. Respectfully, you are possibly misapprehending the purpose of episodic plot summary within an article. They are supposed to be exceedingly brief. They are not supposed to cover every tiny detail about the episode. It is the broad strokes, the main point of the article - period. While the 300 word limit is not absolute, it does serve as a guideline where common sense won't. While compared to the previous, bloated version, they would appear to be 'incoherent'.
 * The first episode article trimmed prior to my edit was 535 words; afterwards, it was 102. The second ep was trimmed from 252 to 56. I could go on, but the point is both well-made and obvious: the previous versions were clearly the result of someone writing them with a failing eye as to the maximum limit allowed. Mine reflects the idea that this is an encyclopedia, and brevity is the byword here. Were it a fan wiki, something else might pass for allowable. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

About the episodes...I had created a seperate article where all the episodes of both seasons (since the second one is something that we know it will happen for sure) would be added. I had added on it Season one (List of Defiance Episodes) and later Season 2 could be added too on the article. I would also start making articles for each episode where everyone could add more infos about the episode, if they had any. But like I said in a previous comment, this would take few days to happen for all the episodes. But the list was removed from the original article and the table with the episodes added back and some of the summaries were already shortened. I am not going to remove the table again cause I don't want to create a "Races-repeat" situation until there will be an agreement here first. Personally I believe it's better the episodes to be in a list article on their own since it's happening with almost all series that have 2 or more seasons. I know Season 2 is not going to be aired soon but still, we know it's going to happen. TeamGale (talk) 11:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not against the idea of a separate article for episodes, but wherever the episodes land, they need to be a lot briefer than they were ( see my comment to SchrutedIt08. above ). When Fringe first started, there was a little resistance to creating episode article for a new tv show. That isn't the problem here; the problem is instead one of actually creating an article and filling it with enough detail (see any Doctor Who article for a guideline as to the level of detail that can be added) to warrant inclusion.
 * An edit summary is not the place to add a lot of detail; if anything, it should be the bare bones of the plot. If it is notable enough to have sourced detail available (and really, that's the only real hurdle to inclusion), then it is ready to have its own article. I welcome the addition of episode articles. They start small, but get larger over time, as DVD extras are released, interviews start happening (and now that the series has been renewed, that will very likely occur). Fighting over the length of a episodic plot summary in the parent article is a non-starter, really. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I have seen other series that don't need a separate episodes page until at least after the first season. If editors would keep the summaries short, it shouldn't be a problem. I've shortened the summaries for episodes 6-9, trying to avoid an overly descriptive "this happened, and then.... and then... and then..." Ryan8374 (talk) 04:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree on shortening the summaries and thanks for doing it. Just one objection from me...I think some of them (especially ep.6 & ep.8) are extremelly short and not informative about the episode. I mean just a sentence or two to describe an episode of 45min it looks weird to me. But that's just a thought and my personal opinion, maybe it's just me :)
 * Info: I started making articles about each of the episode where we can add a full plot and other information in the future. For now I only made the first two episodes but it'll take some time to make all of them since I'll have to re-watch the episodes to be able to write a "full" plot. I'll continue with the next ones the sooner as possible. If any of you has something to add on these episodes, or even create a page for one of the next ones, feel free to do it. Is there anyone who disagrees completely about making those articles? If yes, why? Because the creation was mentioned in the past and no one said that it wasn't necessary to make them.
 * Something last: I also made a list of the episodes and added it in the past on the article, but like you said, because it's only one season, it was removed. I only made it because it was announced and we do know that there will be a second season. So, just an info that the list exists for the future. Thanks TeamGale (talk) 12:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Fionnula Flanagan
I am just dropping this here because I saw that the actress was already added twice in the main cast after she was removed the first time and I don't want to remove her again before discussing it. The actress is not mentioned in the credits of the show as main cast but she is added to the "guests" when she is appearing in the episode. I believe the right thing is to remove her. TeamGale (talk) 16:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * IF she isn't mentioned in the credits, she doesn't get a listing. That's pretty much as per MOSFILM. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Just saw your answer and was going to remove it but, seems that it was already done. Hope the anonymous user won't add it again. TeamGale (talk) 09:00, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Species in Defiance
For those concerned with editing this page, we're having a bit of an argument over on the Talk page for "Species in Defiance". Jack Sebastian argues that information about the setting and aliens released on the official Facebook and Tumblr pages is not a "reliable source"...even though, as I argue, they're official promotional materials and thus blatantly a "reliable source". For that matter he's making blanket statements disregarding citations I've made from the official website itself. Even episode citations seem to baffle him. If you're invested in this page, please weigh in over on "Talk:Species in Defiance", this is turning into quite a problem.--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for adding this, I was looking for the species listing/description and found a bad link in the summary. I corrected the summary link to the Votans to the proper page and will add in my comments on the talk page you mentioned.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Made my comment there in the speedy deletion section. From an extremely brief view of the citations, there is indeed a bit of unintended (assume good faith first) synthesis present. Inline citations for each part taken from a different citation would work to remove the problem. A lot of work, but worth the effort to retain encyclopedic quality to an article. Initially, I would have run afoul of the What SYNTH is not problem, but I did read it much later and it explained why some articles have so many inline citations, even in a single sentence. Doing it otherwise does end up being true WP:NOR, as you researched the information and assembled it that is cited in no other place in the world, which is by definition, Original Research.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Minor word change in episode text
Changed "does experiments" to "performs experiments" for better flow.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Setting Section
Can someone explain where all the information in the Setting section has come from, none of this information has been revealed in the series and yet this section goes into great detail about pale wars, colonies, exploding fleets, arkfall etc etc. Can someone either cite a reference for this or remove it.


 * Actually, all have been mentioned in the series proper. That said, citations should be present, as mention from memory is OR. While I do follow the series, I do not follow its presence online, hopefully one that does have as authoritative as can be such for a work of fiction can help here. I'd try, but family medical issues do not grant me enough time to even attempt due diligence.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Australian Free to Air Premier
Defiance premiered on the 12th Feb at 10:45 on Channel Seven Australian Free Tv instead of on the 19th (which as you might expect was episode 2), so I have modified the "Broadcast" section thusly. 58.107.70.160 (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Webepisode
I believe there has to be mentioned something about the 5min webisode that was released... webisode TeamGale 00:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)