Talk:Deh Cho Bridge

Article started
There didn't seem to be an article for the bridge, so I created a starter outline for one. I'll try and sprinkle a few more references and expand some bits if I get a chance.

The design section is mostly lifted from the Infinity article - it could use some paraphrasing and expansion.

The toll figure is calculated from Schedule 11 of the Concession Agreement. The Base Toll Rate for a Tractor-Train shall be set by multiplying $6.00 by a fraction having as the numerator the CPI in the year Traffic Availability Date is achieved and having as the denominator the CPI in the year 2002 and then multiplying this product by 38.49. The 2002 CPI is 100. The actual rate in 2011 will depend on the CPI then, but using the 2009 figure (114.4) goes as follows: $6 * (114.4/100) * 38.49 = $264.20.

NorthernRaven (talk) 11:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite
Now that the bridge is nearing completion, I propose to cut back on the backbiting, and say more about the construction. Any objections?24.108.61.172 (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by backbiting? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

"The Government of New Brunswick had guaranteed a $13.3 million letter of credit issued by the Bank of Nova Scotia to Atcon as part of its construction guarantee. When Atcon was terminated the New Brunswick government initially indicated this would likely be released back to them.[15] However, when the bank indicated it would be letting this expire as of November 2010, the NWT government arranged for New Brunswick to pay out the entire amount into an account for correcting deficiencies in Atcon's work.[16] As of December 2012, $5.6 million of this had been spent, with an estimated $3-5 million more eventually." ... A little of this information is valuable, but the legal wrangling has been allowed to overshadow the huge technical accomplishment. All I ask is a better balance.24.108.61.172 (talk) 22:26, 23 September 2012 (UTC) "
 * OK. Other than the silly "As of December 2012..." how would you change it? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Replacing sections 4,5 and 6 with something like

"Actual construction began in June 2008, with an opening date then estimated as late 2010. Work was completed on the approaches and support piers, although the final approved designs for the superstructure were not yet complete. The four piers on the south side were put in place in 2008, and the four northern piers during 2009 .Due to safety concerns the superstructure was redesigned, which involved replacing general contractor Atcon Construction with Ruskin Construction (Dec. 30, 2009) ; Atcon's subsequent bankruptcy revealed that the New Brunswick government had guaranteed the company to the tune of $13.3 million. The partnership with Deh Cho Bridge Corp. was also ended (June 2010), the Territorial government assuming all the responsibility. The need for special-quality steel from Structal-Bridges led to a delay in shipment, thus the superstructure could not be finished until winter 2011, so paving and grouting had to be put off until warm weather (summer 2012). Completion is expected before freeze-up at a revised cost of $202 million, not unreasonable for a structure of this magnitude. Money has been saved by keeping lighting to the necessary minimum (which minimizes light-pollution and protects migratory birds) and by giving the metal a mere protective coating, not a decorative paint job."

I don't think encyclopedia-users need every detail of the dirty linen, a precis should suffice - you can see that I have not engaged in any cover-up. However, I do take a certain pride in this huge bridge (with which I have no connection).24.108.61.172 (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine to me. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 13:27, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Done. I will need to provide more references, I do know where to find them. It would help if people involved in the construction would contribute to this page, they have posted some beautiful photos at the official site. Maybe I will try posting one to see if I can get away with it. I will also add some more details about the construction.24.108.61.172 (talk) 19:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No don't do that. If you do then someone, probably me, will delete it and you will get a warning about copyright violations. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 20:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Restoring
I've substantially restored the article to its previous state. An article like this provides comprehensive information on all aspects of the project, and isn't merely a paean to the construction process. Unfortunately, for the Deh Cho Bridge, a significant portion of its notable events deal with difficulties. The information presented isn't "back-biting", but relate to various multi-million dollar consequences in what is (for the NWT) an immense capital undertaking.

While any large engineering project (not to say one in extreme climate conditions) is a major accomplishment, none of the troubles takes away from the Bridge as a bridge. Certainly the design section can be enhanced, and some of the construction process added here, I'd suggest "Design and Erection" if that didn't pose certain problems as a heading... :) My layman's understanding is that a bridge of this size is longish but not exceptional, challenging because of the arctic environment, and notable for some aspects of Infinity's superstructure redesign (the long continuous deck without expansion joints, the hybrid "extradosed" backstays).  Even here, though, the issue of the original design will eventually have to be addressed, although it is hard to get any sort of candid commentary from those involved.

The article has grown by accretion, and certainly can be improved by smoothing and reworking - I did a little as I restored things. But don't simply remove the detail on the spurious ground that it is "unneeded". Expand the initial summary, perhaps, to be longer and provide an overview. NorthernRaven (talk) 05:40, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Comments
Just some comments on 124's text - I incorporated mention of the lighting and weathering steel in the Design section, but removed some problematic pieces:

Due to safety concerns the superstructure was redesigned, which involved replacing general contractor Atcon Construction with Ruskin Construction (Dec. 30, 2009)

No, this involved hiring Infinity to redesign the superstructure, after receiving a design review report from BP-TEC/T.Y. Lin - this was more like spring 2009. Presumably as Infinity's redesign neared completion DCBC was negotiating with Atcon to get a price on the revised Phase 2. They couldn't agree on a number, and DCBC let Atcon go; they'd had problems with them before that, and may not have been terribly disappointed to see them go, but in theory there was no reason Atcon couldn't have built the superstructure (assuming DCBC didn't know they were a few months away from bankruptcy).

The need for special-quality "weathering" steel from Structal-Bridges led to a delay in shipment, thus the superstructure could not be finished until winter 2011

No; as the referenced technical memo points out, weathering steel is apparently a mainstream alternative for bridges, and in fact the memo touts "faster fabrication time" as an advantage of using it! The developer's report for the original design, dating back to 2004, indicates that the superstructure would consist of "4,750,000 kg non-painted weathering steel", so this wasn't new to Infinity's redesign. The obvious assumption is that Structal simply blew their fabrication and delivery schedule, although it is possible that some sort of unknown changes by the GNWT or its team were to blame. But delays happen - the interesting thing is the result. The original schedule called for the trusses to be done by the end of April 2011, and then all the warm weather work. The steel delays kill that timing, fine, but surely a full extra year should be more than enough to get you to that same point by spring 2012 without difficulty. Yet most of that last $10 million overrun is claimed to have been applied to "extra manpower, equipment and materials to meet the schedule" and open the bridge before the end of the year. The GNWT isn't forthcoming on just what sort of change orders or difficulties were involved, but it can't simply be the late arrival of the steel.

a revised cost of $202 million, not unreasonable for a structure of this magnitude

I confess, I'm not sure how one would evaluate what might be "reasonable" for this particular bridge. But presumably then the DCBC was grossly negligent either in the original $162 million construction cost, or the small $7 million total contingency amount.

Money has been saved...by using steel which develops a longer-lasting protective coating, rather than doing a decorative paint job

As mentioned, the weathering steel seems to have been part of the original design, and Google informs me that painting this sort of steel is somewhat self-defeating. The GNWT's tech memo indicates they are coating certain specific moisture-prone areas only - I doubt if there was ever any intention of painting the entire bridge, and no savings from this source.

Just as a note, even if they bring it in for the $202 million or whatever already allocated, that's the cost to the GNWT, not the total spent on construction. The $10 million or whatever the final number is to remediate problems from Atcon's work is separate, coming out of that $13.3 million the NB govt was forced to cough up. The $1 million for the tolling infrastructure is also separate, and there will eventually be costs (unknown, but perhaps high six figures) to remediate fish habitat (seriously!). NorthernRaven (talk) 07:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I should point out that the (replacement) Port Mann Bridge will cost 2.46 BILLION - that's the bloated south for you. I think the territories have done very nicely to get a bridge for less than 10% of that cost, and in much more difficult conditions. There was no money left for PR, hence all the griping.24.108.61.172 (talk) 22:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I should also point that the bridge has been awarded an international prize, alongside a vast bridge in China. That proves it is a remarkable achievement. 24.108.58.1 (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

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