Talk:Delaware Valley

This section lacks compared to other Metro area sections like Greater Boston's
I was reading Greater Boston's CSA article and it is more informative listing key universities, economics and history situated in the area and I am wondering why the Greater Philadelphia/Delaware Valley article doesn't have the same listings. They're very similar areas. This article could be much more informative than it is. Half-assed job here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.54.121 (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

This article is missing a demographic section
Please update based on the census as virtually all other metro area articles have this important section. 66.116.62.178 (talk) 13:31, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Map
Can someone who lives in the Delaware Valley provide a map, please? Eric Forste 00:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Northeastern Delaware Valley
I left in a note at the end of the first part of this article noting that "Delaware Valley" is also used for a small region in the northeastern corner of PA. If this could somehow be expanded that would be good.

Unofficial "Metropolitan Areas" vs. Metropolitan Statistical Areas
We shouldn't confuse unofficial and vague ideas of metropolitan areas with specific census-defined Metropolitan Statistical Areas. The Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Area is a group of counties defined by the U.S. Census to exist. This is what is discussed in this article. The "Delaware Valley" is a vague term used unofficially. There is no reason to suggest that it is identical to the Census Bureau's Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Area. For instance, I doubt most people would recognize Cecil County, Maryland or Cape May County, New Jersey as part of the "Delaware Valley," even if they are part of the Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Area. We need to stop acting as though the areas defined by the census area are an NPOV description of metropolitan areas in the US. For instance, the Washington-Baltimore CMSA is ridiculously huge, including almost entirely rural counties as far out as West Virginia or Maryland's Eastern Shore. Many have suggested that this definition is largely done in order to lower the government's cost of living assessments for federal workers by including lots of cheap, rural areas in the metropolitan area where so many federal employees live. I think we need to get our acts together on this. john k 04:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I've heard that theory but I don't believe it. There's a mathematical formula, mostly related to commuting, that determines what goes in which MSA. That's why Trenton is in the New York metro... NY/North Jersey's job market is a lot stronger than Philly's, so more people commute in that direction. It's not some diabolical plan to screw people over. It's fairly scientific, and commute patterns change w/ every census, which is why the metro areas change as well. Passdoubt | Talk 19:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The Bureau of the Census does not always follow its rules where they may involve Federal employees. Mercer County, NJ, had historically been included in what had been known as the Philadelphia-Wilmington-Trenton, PA-NJ-DE-MD CMSA, because the commuting patterns are as strong between Mercer County and Philadelphia as they are between it and New York (historical trivia: Princeton University is located in the county precisely because it is halfway between the two cities) AND most of the major metropolitan media that cover Trenton are located in Philadelphia, not NYC (the Philadelphia TV stations maintain Trenton bureaus but not the New York TV stations, for instance); Trenton was moved from one to the other not because of any major shift in commuting patterns but because the cost of living adjustment for Federal employees is higher for the New York CMSA than for the Philadelphia CMSA.  (A similar case of the bureau not following its rules involves the CSA that should be called Baltimore-Washington but is called Washington-Baltimore, a clear violation of bureau policy that names multicentric CSAs and MSAs in declining order of central city populations; Baltimore is the bigger of the two.)  The shift was made solely to give Federal employees working in Mercer County a pay raise without special legislation. However, the theory cited above is not correct, I think; for a county to be included in a metropolitan area, a certain percentage of its residents must commute to work in one of the counties that currently comprise it.  (Leavenworth County, Kansas, had NOT been part of the Kansas City, MO-KS, MSA for many years because of this rule; most county residents work at the large Federal prison or Army base within the county's boundaries.) Marketstel (talk) 06:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The CSA defined in the article is not consistent with the US Census definition. Cape May, Atlantic City, ane Mercer counties are not included in the Census definition. Polaron 03:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Clarifications?
There is a clear problem with failure of the article to discuss the supposed subject, the "Delaware Valley" in its usual meaning. In geography the term "XXX" Valley refers to the area draining to the river in question. As can be seen from a map, or the Wikipedia article on the Delaware River, the Delaware River Valley covers a much larger area than is discussed here, with the Delaware River starting in News York and flowing south, draining large parts of Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, as sell as Delaware.

Those finding an article title "Delaware Valley" would expect a discussion of the whole area draining to the Delaware River.

The true subject seems to be some type of economic region covering the area centered on Philadelphia, Wilmington, and related counties. Such a grouping is valid for some purposes, and there is apparently even a regional planning body using this title (probably chosen to avoid sounding too Philadelphia Centered). If this economic region is the intended subject of the article, the title should so reflect, and the first sentence should be clear as to what is being covered, and how the region is being defined for this specialized usage. (Note, the I below is not the writer of the above three paragraphs).(Ed7654 (talk) 20:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC))

I was going to clean the top of this article up a bit, but I found I didn't really know how to. What's with that first sentence? I'm not even sure what it's trying to say with the state's linked up together like that. What's a CSA? Also, what's the source for the population figures added on October 18, 2005?

Monmouth County should not be included in the growing areas list at all. Only a small section of Monmouth borders Burlington and most of the developed areas are bona fide New York City suburbs (via the North Jersey Coast Line train) that are much closer to New York than Philly. Monmouth is also adjacent to Queens County, NY, so there really is no way you can consider Monmouth anywhere close to Philly. Ocean County is a little tricker, but since it's part of the New York metro area for now, I would hesitate to include the county on the list. New York is growing rapidly as well, so I don't think it's likely Philly can displace New York for Ocean in the foreseeable future. Jps57 (talk) 15:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)jps57

I note that the article now uses the phrase "Delaware Valley Metropolitan Area," capitalized as here, as though it were an official term of some sort. It is not. "Delaware Valley" stands alone when used to refer to the Greater Philadelphia region, and when one speaks of a "metropolitan area," the term "Philadelphia" is used instead. This needs to be changed, but I think it needs to be addressed in terms of a larger reworking of the article still. Marketstel (talk) 18:37, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

suburbs
Should it be noted that the suburbs less than 10000 list overlaps with the suburbs more than 10000 list? (Example: Cornwells Heights is in Bensalem Township, Trevose is in both Bensalem and Lower Southampton Township), etc. ?

New TV/Radio table?
Any reactions/suggestions (regestions) for an addition with TV/Radio table in this article? Possible titles include "Media" or "Television and Radio" Bill D 15:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Combined Statistical Area redefinition
See this OMB bulletin. The Reading Metropolitan Statistical Area is now part of the Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland CSA. --Polaron | Talk 01:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I adjusted the map accordingly. Kmusser 12:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Reading CSA vs MSA
The topic is vague regarding whether it's discussing the CSA or the similarly-named MSA. Reading isn't part of the latter, according to current sources from BLS Tedickey (talk) 13:50, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Count Reading and one must count Allentown and Lancaster. Philly should be larger than several now above it among CSAs. 2606:9400:9F9F:E9A0:21E5:85ED:5CAF:E8F5 (talk) 11:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposed move
I would like to suggest that this article be moved to a more formal name. "Delaware Valley" should be a geographical article. Some possible names this could be moved to:


 * Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area
 * Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington Metropolitan Statistical Area
 * Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington MSA
 * Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington
 * Philadelphia Metropolitan Statistical Area
 * Philadelphia Metropolitan Area
 * Philadelphia MSA

The rest of these should probably be redirects to the new name. Thoughts? --ChrisRuvolo (t) 12:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably not a bad idea, but note that the first of these already exists. I'd want to look at it before determining what needs to be done with this one.

But even if this article gets renamed, there should be a section within it on the term "Delaware Valley," as it is widely used to refer to Greater Philadelphia. It's even in the name of the region's metropolitan planning organization (MPO), the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission.Marketstel (talk) 19:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

lexical origin - question
I remember reading when I was young that the term originated with WPVI, which still uses it. If true, that would mean KYW would eschew its use because of its origination by a competitor ... Any thoughts? Corraboration? PennaBoy 02:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Counties Around Philly Area REMOVED, justification below
I have eliminated the counties around the Delaware Valley section. If counties are added by the census, they should be listed. Speculation is worthless. The whole section seemed to imply the reach of the Philadelphia area is greater than it actually is. There is fast growth in many areas, the New York City area in particular, but that is irrelevant. The point is that we have no idea how an area will grow or constrict IN THE FUTURE. You cannot assume future growth from present growth, nor can you assume where that growth will reach. There are still undeveloped areas in Burlington and Gloucester county, for example. I hate to be mean, but that whole section (originally "adjacent" to area section) demonstrates the persistent inferiority complex of those in the Philly area have to New York City. Monmouth county, a county that borders Queens County, NY. Please. As a person who formerly lived in South Jersey and now lives in North Jersey, let me say that this complex is totally unnecessary. The Philly area is pretty nice and distinct from the New York City area. DO NOT EXAGGERATE THIS ARTICLE to include what does not deserve to be there. No articles on wikipedia, for that matter, should be speculative. Be objective people. Jps57 (talk) 03:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)jps57


 * Isn't it just a tad bit ironic for you to tell others to be objective after claiming Philadelphia has an inferiority complex to New York and that it is exaggerating because of it. In reality, Philadelphia is the ONLY metro or CSA that doesn't exaggerate its reach and in fact does the opposite, despite the fact that its reach CLEARLY goes all the way into the furthest parts of South Jersey (and at one point into Central and parts of Northern) to the Lehigh Valley and other parts of NE PA, and to eastern Central PA.  Be objective, jps.  24rhhtr7 (talk) 02:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I have personally tried to remove the assertion that Lancaster and York have some dependence on Philadelphia for services and utilities three times. This is insane. There don't even share electric companies or cable providers, much less police, fire, or hospital services. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.140 (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Terminology and regional identity
I'm not certain that the term originated with WPVI-TV, but your story does jibe with something I've heard, PennaBoy -- it was coined by a local media outlet that wanted to distinguish itself from another outlet that used the more traditional construction "Greater Philadelphia". "Greater [core city name]" is a far more common phrase used to refer to a large city and its suburban region, but the historical animosity between the city of Philadelphia and its suburbs probably helped contribute to the widespread adoption of "Delaware Valley" over "Greater Philadelphia". In that respect, Philadelphia is almost unique in having a term that omits any mention of the core city commonly used to refer to the metro; the only other widely used term I am familiar with of this type is "Twin Cities" for Minneapolis-St. Paul, but that term is used because the two core cities are roughly equal in size and importance. Saying "Delaware Valley" is "the name" for the region is IMO therefore inaccurate; calling the phrase a "commonly used term" or even "widely used term" is a more neutral description and therefore should be used here. Marketstel (talk) 06:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your assertions. I was very surprised upon coming here that the Philadelphia Metro Area is called "Delaware Valley." I mean, if anything, that implies in the importance of Delaware. And while Delaware is part of the Philadelphia region, not mentioning the major city is very strange. I don't even think "Greater" would work because that usually refers to counties on the outer fringe of the metropolitan region, places that are far away but still identify with the core city. Northampton and Lehigh counties, for example, come to mind when I hear "greater." "Greater" in Philadelphia can also refer to counties that are divided between two metro areas, such as Ocean County, NJ and Mercer County, NJ. I think the word "metropolitan" is enough. Metropolitan definitely does not imply a single city. To completely change a region's name based on differences between the city and suburbs is IMO childish. That alleged conflict can easily be fleshed out in the metro area's article, or settled in another article about the alleged conflict. I don't want to go through the hassle of changing the nomenclature, but if Marketstel does do that, I will support him in his efforts. Jps57 (talk) 01:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)jps57

Thank you, and thank you for your more recent revisions. About the place of Mercer County in the New York/Philadelphia regions: It is true that the county is indeed split between the New York and Philadelphia spheres of influence, and (as I think I noted above) Princeton University is located where it is because the New York and Philadelphia Presbyteries of the Presbyterian Church both wanted to establish a college and chose a location equidistant between the two cities. However, while the Census Bureau has indeed moved Mercer County out of the Philadelphia CSA and into the New York CSA, the county remains in the Philadelphia DMA (Dominant Media Area), a fact further reinforced by the presence of Trenton bureaus for WPVI-TV (the other three major Philadelphia network TV stations maintain no bureaus that I am aware of) but no New York TV stations. I do intend to revise this article -- which really needs a lot more work than I can do at one sitting -- to reflect this. Marketstel (talk) 18:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI - Trenton isn't halfway between Philly and NYC. It takes 50 minutes to get to Center City on the R7 and 80 minutes to get to Manhattan on NJTransit. It's 32 miles by car from Center City to Trenton and 66 miles from Trenton to Lower Manhattan. 76.116.224.228 (talk) 06:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)solibs

One further comment, perhaps a bit nit-picky: I'd always understood the construction "Greater [city name]" to refer to the region that includes the named core city and its suburban hinterlands. For instance, where I grew up, "Greater Kansas City" encompassed the core city's home county (Jackson in Missouri) plus Clay and Platte counties in Missouri and Johnson and Wyandotte counties in Kansas (the city's suburbs and the adjacent city of Kansas City, Kansas). It's since grown to encompass several more counties in both states. Marketstel (talk) 18:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

edge cities
Edge city definition doesn't come close to any of the locations cited TEDickey (talk) 23:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

supposed peacock terms
Under the "counties making up the Delaware valley section, "relatively wealthy" is marked as a peacock term, in the sentence "Mercer County, a relatively wealthy county located on the northern fringe of the Delaware Valley MSA, is home to both New York and Philadelphia commuters". It strikes me as a little strange to call this a peacock term; whether or not the county is affluent is a clearly verifiable fact (see |04000US34|05000US34015&_street=&_county=mercer&_cityTown=mercer&_state=04000US34&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=050&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=ACS_2007_3YR_SAFF&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null&reg=null:null&_keyword=&_industry= the census bureau's demographic data on Mercer county, not an opinion or a promotion of the county. I suppose you could make it more specific or add a citation, but it's not exactly a peacock term.173.66.1.160 (talk) 23:57, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect claim that Del Val is the fourth largest metro
All of the recent information U.S. Census reports and reports from other groups point to the fact that the Del Val (Greater Philly) has been passed by Greater Houston in the rankings. Philly is now 6th, not 4th, in size of the metro areas in the U.S. In American BizJournals, in a column called "On Numbers", G. Scott Thomas, on March 7, 2011, listed the current size of the top metro areas in the U.S. Philly is clearly number 6 and there no citation for the incorrect claim that Philly is 4. The Greater Philly area only grew by less than one half of one percent in the last decade. Houston grew by well over 25%. What follows is a short piece of information from the Thomas article in BizJournals: Metro or micro area Population (estimated as of March 7, 2011) Rank (of 940 metros and micros)

1.New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA 19,199,668

2.Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA.............. 12,961,505

3.Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI ................9,673,948

4.Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX ....................6,712,303

5.Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX .....................6,108,060

6.Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD.. ......6,018,573

7.Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA................. 5,700,894

8.Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL.............5,620,115

9.Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV........5,602,583

10.Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH ....................4,638,656

Read more: Metro area populations (as of March 7, 2011) | Business First  --Palmtree6600 (talk) 14:19, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * So - provide a reliable source which matches the statement you're attempting to support. So far, not close.  For instance, the latest provides 2011 estimates which doesn't actually provide a ranking, which doesn't match the 2010 census statement.  I've corrected the title for this discussion. TEDickey (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Not sure where BizJournals is getting its data, but I couldn't match it to anything on the Census site. The most recent documents I could find that give Metro rankings used 2009 estimates which place Philly 5th .  Data from the 2010 Census isn't conveniently ranked, but looking up the individual counties via the Factfinder that doesn't look like it's changed (I got 5,965,343 for Philly and 5,946,800 for Houston). Kmusser (talk) 21:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the last edit appears to be aimed at just using BizJournals, whether or not the statement happens to be based on a reliable source TEDickey (talk) 00:05, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

id like to know what the population of philidelphia region would be if Atlantic county, new jersey was including and if that would change where philidelphia region ranks on the list. im not saying to change the artical or anything atleast not until its official that the philidelphia region starts including new areas. 76.211.5.253 (talk) 02:07, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Wilmington
I know that Philadelphia might think Wilmington is a suburb, but it really isn't, and somebody needs to make that known. It is its own major banking center, has its own significant companies, and history.

There is more about King of Prussia and Cherry Hill than there is about Wilmington Delaware, which really is unbalanced. Somebody reading this article would assume that Wilmington, DE is just an extension of the suburbs of Philadelphia, when in reality, it is a parallel smaller metropolitan area which happens to be attached to the Philly metro area.

For example, go on Careerbuilder, and search within 50 miles of Philadelphia, and you will find that Wilmington has more listed jobs than Cherry Hill, King of Prussia, and Trenton combined. It also has the oldest Church in the area, headquarters huge companies, has special tax advantages to the entire region, and was essential in providing gunpowder to win America's wars. It even shared a railroad with Philadelphia and Baltimore. Yet it's listed as if it were an afterthought.

If I had permission, I would edit it myself.

Joe84323 (talk) 15:27, 9 July 2011 (UTC)Joe74323

I second Joe84323's comment: Wilmington, DE, merits inclusion in an article on the "Delaware Valley" as a metropolitan center in its own right. Cecil County, MD, is part of the larger region because it is in the commutershed of Wilmington, not Philadelphia, and the reason SEPTA's Wilmington/Newark Regional Rail line operates into Delaware at all is because the Delaware Department of Transportation contracts with SEPTA to operate the service for commuters into downtown Wilmington - that some Claymont users may commute into Philadelphia is an afterthought. Marketstel (talk) 14:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Images of Upper Delaware Valley
Here is a good source of freely licensed images of the Upper Delaware Valley:--GrapedApe (talk) 04:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we should reverse the redirect and make this a disambiguation page?
Recently, the head of a local economic consulting and forecasting firm wrote an essay calling for the retirement of the term "Delaware Valley" as a reference to Greater Philadlephia, a move I support.

As the writer pointed out, the term is geographically inaccurate and slights the region's core city. Most metropolitan areas with one dominant core city are usually referred to as "Greater [city name]" or "Metro [city name]," even if the region has other satellite cities that function as lesser cores (e.g., Wilmington, Del., in the case of Greater Philadelphia).

It's also topographically inaccurate for the bulk of the territory encompassed by the term, for once it leaves the Piedmont and enters the coastal plain, which includes most of its course through lower Bucks, Burlington, Camden, Delaware, Gloucester and Philadelphia counties, the Delaware is not in a valley.

Finally, I've seen stats that suggest that Internet searches on "Delaware Valley" in search of information on Greater Philadelphia have been declining over the last few years.

Yet I note that the former article "Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area" now redirects here.

Since the "Delaware Valley" fits better as a geographical term referring to the basin drained by the Delaware River than as an economic/cultural term describing the metropolitan region centered on Philadelphia, I'd like to suggest that this article ultimately be revised to one on the Philadelphia metropolitan area under a title reflecting that fact and "Delaware Valley" be changed to a disambiguation page pointing to two articles: one on the Delaware River Basin and the other on metropolitan Philadelphia. Marketstel (talk) 12:18, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

questionable source and interpretation
Several issues: peakbagger appears to be a borderline source - not WP:RS, since its content is community-edited. Berks County isn't in what consensus would agree as "Delaware Valley" except in the secondary sense (social). Geologically - doesn't seem plausible. There are probably better sources, and better contenders, e.g., Kittatinny Mountains at 1800 feet - and geologically part of the valley. Finally, highest point in a valley is incongruous TEDickey (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that Peakbagger's not the best source. Until a better one is found, I've changed the highest elevation to 1080 ft (329 m) in accordance with Chester County's Welsh Mountain, which seems to be the highest point within the core counties of the metro area. I've also added a reference to a topographic map of the Welsh Mountain area, although the map doesn't denote a summit quite that high. –Reelcheeper (talk) 05:31, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Trenton
Ummm... Trenton is NOT part of the Philadelphia CSA... It is part of the New York City CSA. This needs to be fixed. 72.229.24.231 (talk) 01:50, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * This is true, and it was an error in the article, which I've corrected. While Trenton is not part of the Philadelphia CSA as currently defined, though, it is part of the Delaware Valley cultural and economic region.  Marco polo (talk) 01:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

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undiscussed move from Delaware Valley to Greater Philadelphia
I would think such a move would have been discussed here before being undertaken. While I agree that use of the term "Delaware Valley" is somewhat questionable, I'm not sure I've heard the term "Greater Philadelphia" much, either. A more neutral term such as "Philadelphia metropolitan area" would be better, and I think this move should've been discussed before it was performed. Famartin (talk) 17:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I live in the Philadelphia area and do not hear the term "Greater Philadelphia" used too much to refer to the area. However, many media sources do use "Delaware Valley" to refer to to Philadelphia area. Therefore, the article should be moved back to Delaware Valley or to Philadelphia metropolitan area, the latter which would make it clear what the article is about.  Dough   4872   02:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I moved it to Greater Philadelphia because the term Delaware Valley is incorrect as it describes a river which flows from the Delaware Bay to Upstate New York, which is nowhere near Philadelphia, which is the principal city of this metropolitan area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Episk123 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

"Delaware River Valley" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Delaware River Valley and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 3 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Mdewman6 (talk) 23:43, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Infobox has way too many cities
Quickly counting, there are currently 61 municipalities in the Infobox. I highly recommend limiting the list to those that are largest or most economically or culturally significant. StillWatchesCartoons (talk) 20:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I checked the Hampton Roads article, and that lists independent cities plus counties, so maybe list the counties here rather than all of the cities? Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2024 (UTC)