Talk:Delayed sleep phase disorder/Archive 1

Severe confusion in the problem description
"internal body clock runs well above 24 hours".. I believe this is entirely confused. That would imply elongated circadian cycle. The cycle is actually naturally over 24 hours, but it gets automatically adjusted -- mostly by daylight -- to around 24 hours with around 8 hours of sleep. The actual numbers vary greatly. Now what DSPS is about is actually a systematic retardation of the adjustment which causes the victim to fall asleep perfectly well in normal cycle, but much later than what average people do. They will still sleep a normal night's sleep and wake up relaxed. Of course they will also wake up much later.

The length of the day does not vary and the clock is not wrong. It is the daily circadian (and circa does mean circa, not precisely) adjustment that acts in an inconveniently slow fashion.

There is natural variance in this as well. The "larks and owls" of people. It starts to be a disorder when it becomes inconvenient.

In contrast, ASPS seems to be correct. It is the same effect, only in the opposite direction. Most of this page on a second looks seems to describe more normal kind of insomnia or other inability to enter sleep.

I intend to try to fix the article if there is no opposition. --blades 00:47, May 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * out-of-date with regard to the current version. —Darkaddress 04:12, 22 August 2004‎ (UTC)

General Discussion on the Article
"Using this strategy will generally become difficult or impossible after two or three decades."

Why would it become impossible to sleep according to a certain schedule when you turn 30, but not before? Or is it that after 2030, you won't be able to sleep this way anymore? It's both ambiguous and seemingly unscientific. If you can provide some empirical (not anecdotal) evidence, and want to rewrite this sentence, feel free to add it back.

"A growing body of evidence suggests that the problem is genetic, and may be inherited."

Could someone please add references to this "growing body of evidence". Note, this article seems pretty fine, and doesn't ring my BS detectors very strongly. However, the above phrase is often used in "health food"/related articles, the difference to accurate articles often being made by pointing to valid references.

In other words, I'd love to see some decent references by anyone who has worked on this article, to prove that it is as good as it looks. 130.232.120.145 20:25, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have added a reference to an academic article. The article is rather non-committal ("These data provide some preliminary support to the notion that eveningness, and thus DSPS, may have a genetic component"); but I guess it could be seen as part of a "growing body of evidence". TomH 21:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

-- Not a scientific article, but I read a BBC News article about the genetic basis for DSPS, here is the link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2996364.stm

"For some, vitamin B12 helps normalize the onset of sleepiness. For other patients, acupuncture may be a solution."

Are there any studies that supports this? I have not found any.

Re: Vitamin B12 study at http://www.outsidein.co.uk/res_slee.htm also mentioned as possible treatment at http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome.htm http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/dsps/treatment.shtml http://sleepdisorders.about.com/cs/dsps/ht/DSPS.htm if i had to guess, i'd say that the idea has mostly come from a single case study:
 * Okawa, M. et al "Vitamin B12 treatment for sleep-wake rhythm disorders" Sleep 1990 Vol 13(1): pp 15-23. (abstract available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2305167&dopt=Abstract )


 * As anecdotal evidence, I had DSPS and non-24 hour sleep phase syndrome for a few years. It is a real pain in the [...]. My cycle would go all the way around once every month or two. Sleeping pills didn't do a thing. At some point I found a mention of treatment with vitamin B12 in the internet. Note that very large doses are required - on the order of 1 mg/day ( recommended daily value is 6 mcg/day ). At the same time, 500 and 1000 mcg vitamin B12 pills are freely sold over-the-counter in the US, and the vitamin has a very low potential for toxicity.
 * After a few months of taking vitamin B12, all my symptoms went away. I haven't had any cycle deviations for over two years. --Itinerant1 17:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm removing the statement about acupuncture as no sources can be cited. I mean, acupuncture? Come on... it might as well say "Rubbing oatmeal on your ass may be a solution." Just because it MAY be a solution, doesn't mean there is any evidence to support the idea. --Bri 15:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

"Another solution could be to move to another timezone where the night coincides with your sleep hours, then you instantly become a normal person without any treatment. Unfortunately this 'solution' only last for as many days as it takes to 'recover' from jet-lag."

I'm going to delete the last sentence of this paragraph because I think it isn't true.

I suffer DSPS. I got a delay of 12 hours. So my body's "low energy" hours are about 10am (european time GMT+1). If I move today to Los Angeles my "low" hours would be at 1am (GMT-8). And since I've been unable to change this "low hours" for years, I'm pretty sure that it would not espontaneusly start changing.

I'll explain what I've learned from my case these years:

My body got 2 main "clocks", one for the brain sleep, and another for the body sleep. The brain sleep is easily changed, delaying your sleep time an hour a day and taking cafeine you can delay your sleep hours to any other hour in the day in less than 4 weeks. That is the only "clock" that chronotherapy is able to change.

The second main "body clock" is the one that regulates the body temperature, heart and breath rate. This clock is very hard to change, it isn't affected by chronotherapy at all.

For example: I've been able to change my sleeps hours with chronotherapy, but my body clock stays fixed at about 10am. That means that even if I get to sleep 8 hours at night, when it gets to 10am I start to feel very tired, my breathing become more intense and regular, I feel a little more cold and I feel my heart beating with more intensity. If I hold this situation for more than a week I start to feel very bad and tired at all hours of the day. The only solution is to delay the brain sleep hours so they match with the body low hours, then I really recover all my energy when I sleep and I dont feel tired at all the rest of the day. But that involves sleeping during the day.

Conclusions:
 * 1) 2 main independent body "clocks", one for the brain sleep and other for the body "low energy" hours (heart,temperature,etc).
 * 2) The brain sleep hours are easy to change, the body clock is very hard to change.
 * 3) You only recover all your energies when the two clocks match, this is when your sleep sleep hours are at the hours that you feel tired.

Note that feeling tired is not the same that feeling sleepy.

Am I crazy?
So last night I stayed up online...until 2AM. Then I studied for an hour and went to bed. And I didn't sleep. And didn't sleep. Have you any idea what it's like to lie in bed for hours and then hear your alarm go off after not having slept at all? Then today I sat for three examination papers. (And I think I did well. I hope that's not just the lack of sleep affecting me.) Am I crazy? My eyes feel a bit tired, but no less tired than last night, when I couldn't sleep at all...


 * I generally find if I'm not on the point of collapse upon retiring to bed I can't sleep at all, even if I stay in bed for hours and hours. --86.135.217.213 01:29, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I call it my breaking point of sleep. I've been diagnosed with many things so far. My problems started at about 7, progressed throughout the years. At 16 I got mononucleosis and the shit hit the fan. Before I was diagnosed, I was sleeping for hours after school, only to wake up for an hour to eat or maybe do homework. After I was diagnosed, I slept 22 hours a day for two weeks, and around 14 from then on. Now I'm on a schedule that I go to bed around 2-9am and wake up from 12 to 4pm. Hardly effective for the world we live in. I have gotten depression because of my inability to work with the normal world. I'm on the brink of not making it into college as well, a big downer for me. I'm glad I know I have the skills to do what I want, college or not. 72.153.5.86 03:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Better take melatonin dude. I can't tell you for sure, whether it's the best method, but as a person, suffering from this (and of course terrible working shift, including night stalking till 3 or 4 AM) I find it good for me to use melatonin. It's not a sleeping pill, but I can tell you that after a week of taking it I'm completely happy with my state of sleep. I usually take it at 9PM and go to bed in 11PM. I am awake at 6 or 7 AM. Sometimes I take it even in 8:30 and go to bed at 10:30. This is good, because I can sleep longer, better and I am awake at early hours, able to do my university duties and stuff. The side effects are that I am awake at no time. Today I took it at 8 and fell asleep at 10. Now, I'm awake at 3AM and I don't think that I will be able to sleep anymore. Which is not that bad, because medicaly our organism rests the best between 10PM and 12AM in the evening, but now I am completely awoke and I feel well, but... it's half past 3. Generally, in the article it's written that melatonin helps for "our" state. In every person is different, but I feel ok with my night regimen, taking melatonin. Painbearer 01:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

OMG! So this is what is wrong with me!
For years and years I thought I was lazy... guess being told that by my whole family made me think that. Last night, I finally had it and was searching online for a name... just the name of what could be wrong with me. At about.com, I found an article on insomnia (which I don't have but thought that is the closest thing to this) and there, there was a mention of DSPS. I thought well this sounds like it might be it...a quick search on yahoo brought me to Wikipedia and once I read the article, I knew right then and there that this is IT!

If I am left alone, I sleep at 5 AM and wake up at 1 PM. I have had to put up with this for 14 years now. The only other person in my family that probably has this, is an uncle of mine. I just feel this sense of total relief that I am not alone... and I am not lazy. For years throughout college and grad school, I did my own chronotherapy. And sometimes I did changed it by not sleeping for 2 days in a row. I have found that I can adjust... although, even after an 8 hour sleep, waking at 5 or 6 AM is really difficult since that's when I'd like to go to bed. And once I have a few days off, my sleep goes right back to my natural rhythm.

I like to know whether light therapy could actually change my natural rhythm. If it does, then I would like to try that. Otherwise, I am just gonna stick to my own chronotherapy. I just finished grad school and I don't have extra $ to spend if it doesn't help. Any comments are much appreciated.

P.S. I have taken melatonin in the past, and that does not help me at all.

My doctor recommended http://www.litebook.com and it's helping.--Sonjaaa 04:29, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

General improvements to the article
Hi everyone,

I'm in the process of trying to improve this article. By way of introduction, I wrote one of the first web pages on DSPS (http://www.geocities.com/delayed_sleep/). Here is a plan I am planning to follow over the next few days, weeks, or months - unless of course someone beats me to it!

1) Divide the article into sections by adding headings; reorganize the content without changing it. I just did this.

2) Add a disease infobox.

3) Add references, and move the "Original Research" template to the individual sections that require it. I think the article needs to distinguish what parts of the article are scientifically solid and what aren't.

4) Improve the statement that, "Research into DSPS... is only a couple of decades old and by no means conclusive. Many doctors reject its status as "incurable", while others see it as "shifted phase", i.e. that a normal pattern exists but has been suppressed." This statement bothers me because it seems to imply a lot but doesn't really say anything. What findings, exactly, are inclusive? Why do the "many doctors" reject its status as "incurable"? If any doctors know of cures (as opposed to treatments), then I would like the article to say what they are. If doctors have differing opinions about whether DSPS is a real condition, the reasons for those opinions perhaps should be discussed in the article.

I plan to make several small edits over time instead of big ones, so everyone stays comfortable. Please comment on this plan. Kla'quot 06:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)Su-Laine

For those who are interested, there is a mailing list for sufferers: niteowl mailing list My view is that if you've come as far as looking up what you've got, you've probably beaten yourself up about it long enough. If you've got this, you aren't lazy or even particularly bohemian or even contemptuous of 'society', you're just wired up differently. Just my opinion: work for yourself! Be creative. Don't make morning appointments, either... SiennaLizard 23:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Deleting the section on recognition in the medical community
I deleted this from the article:

''"Similarly anti-depressants, which are often prescribed for insomnia, may delay sleep onset even further in DSPS." ''

I removed this statement because I can't remember seeing it reported in the scientific literature. Can anyone provide a reference for it?

--Kla'quot 06:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I just removed the "Original Research" warning entirely. As far as I can tell, the article doesn't have any right now. It still could use some cleanup and footnoting though.

--Kla'quot 06:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Copying content from http://www.geocities.com/delayed_sleep
I am gradually copying content from the pages at http://www.geocities.com/delayed_sleep, into Wikipedia. Just so nobody is alarmed, this is not a copyright violation. The content I'm copying is under Creative Commons License. Anyone may now copy it to Wikipedia (see: http://www.geocities.com/delayed_sleep/aboutsite.html), but please give me a week or so to do it so I can integrate things smoothly.

Kla'quot 07:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

A note to all editors: insomnia
Today I corrected a couple of erroneous references to insomnia from the article. Please editors, note that DSPS is not a type or form of insomnia, which is an inability to sleep regularly or at all. Insomnia can be caused by DSPS, for instance when the sufferer denies his or her circadian rhythm by trying to adapt to socially accepted timeframes. Being afflicted with DSPS is not the same as suffering from DSPS - it is theoretically possible for someone with DSPS to lead an almost normal life with regular periods of sleep entirely without 'suffering'. 212.178.112.106 22:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

FYI--Technically, according to clinical standards, if you are able to lead a good life with no complaints of a delayed phase, you don't have the delayed sleep phase SYNDROME. The complaint is critical in diagnosing DSPS.

If you have a job that lets you get up later in the day you could do absolutely fine with even severe DSPS. If you don't complain about problems related to DSPS maybe it would be harder to diagnose, but that DOESNT mean you dont have it! Its not like DSPS goes away if it isn't causing you problems, you just have learned to work with it. --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.241.238.179 (talk) 22:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal of section
I took out the section on combination treatments as it wasn't sourced, and it read like a list of "treatments" for finding it tough to get out of bed. "drinking two full glasses of water" will only wake a DSPS sufferer in the middle of their "night", it won't change their circadian rhythm. The rest are equally poor, especially the downright hazardous "take double doses of sedatives". Darkaddress 18:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Good call. Kla'quot 02:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

General Discussion on DSPS
So since this is the discussion session I have a question to all you people with DSPS: How do you all cope with friends, family, work, etc with this condition? I have been chaistised by all of these individuals saying that I need to 'train my body to go to sleep' or 'you need to do better' and have given me nothing but further frustration and angst.

Like many people with this I have tried so many things and they have all failed miserably. If it were up to me though I'd go to sleep around 3-4 AM and get up around 10-Noon but in the working world that cannot happen. When I am at school I can just adjust my classes for the semester to a time that suits me and doesn't interfere with performance. I have also suffered from depression in the past and still have some of that combined with anxiety. Comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.162.5.12 (talk • contribs) July 19 2006.


 * Hi there. I and a few million other people have lots of empathy for you. For your family, friends, and work, send them to this Wikipedia article and maybe it will enlighten them. DSPS is a tough disorder to treat and really tough to live with too. As for jobs, some require early mornings and some don't. May I recommend the Niteowl support group ? There are few easy answers, but at least you'll know you're in good company. Best wishes, Su-Laine Su-Laine Yeo 06:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I'm fortunate in that I've managed to fairly successfully adapt. For one thing, I have a career that's very friendly to this sort of thing: I weave.  I have a big weaving loom in my house, my boss gives me bags full of yarn and my orders, and I turn finished throws in at the end of the week.  Since I work at home and I can basically put the hours in whenever I want so long is everything is done by the due date, it's easy to just work when I happen to be awake.  Of course, I do face unrelated drawbacks; the hours (though flexible) are long and the pay is low.  As for friends and such, I practically live online (working at home and not having a car tends to limit one's real-life social interactions) so I just make friends on IM with people in exotic time zones. 68.35.129.180 07:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Not too much luck here. I find it hard to sleep before 7AM.  I might also have a touch of non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome, as this time often increases, but I can usually regulate sleep around 7AMish.  I don't have too much trouble with my friends.  My family thinks I'm lazy.  Work -- is a nightmare.  I'm currently in the process of getting a new job... the only problem is that the only jobs I've been able to find also start at 8AM.  I recently worked an 11hr shift on one hour of sleep and only had one five min break during the whole thing.  It sucked.  I used to have quite a bit of luck with marijuana but I can't use that now because it impairs my memory too much for the job I'm working at... meh.  --Animus9 11:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I just want to thank the editors here for a breakthrough moment for me upon reading the article. I've had the same 3am-11ish sleep pattern for the last 23 years, with occasional episodes of N2HSS, and only lately have found a line of work compatible with that pattern.  I'm a music composer for tv shows and films, so I work on deadlines.  I'm very excited to learn more about this, and get started on a treatment plan, because it would be nice to not have to always schedule meetings in the afternoon. Cheers!  Davwood 22:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I just had a similar "breakthrough moment", in reading this article. If I'm left to my own devices, I'll sleep a similar 3am to 11am cycle.  I can't tell you how much that impacts on the rest of my life.  I've ended up doing a less than challenging job because I can do it from home and get up when I'm ready.  I've had trouble developing a relationship with partners because they're ready for bed at 9pm and I'm just starting to get to my creative "thinking" stage of my day.  I've been called lazy, and a sleepyhead, because I don't operate very well before 11am, even though I get less sleep than everyone else, and I know myself that I'm not lazy.  It makes such a difference to be able to put a scientific basis to this, instead of just calling myself a "night owl".  Cheers x2 ! Wampusaust 06:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Drugs, both permitted and not by law haven't helped. They work for a few days or weeks, but I just get used to them and fall into my regular early morning-afternoon schedule, and my thought processes end up hampered (as well as my dexterities).  Jobs at 9am have just resulted in either insomnia or oversleeping.  I still need a full night's sleep, but I can't get it until I've been awake for 18-20 hours, which leaves me at a deficit every night.  I can't believe there's a drug company (the name of which I can't remember) promoting a sleep-aid that is non-habit forming.  That's BS.  If it knocks me out, I'll take it, and chances are I'll have a habit for it before it stops working.  (Warrenreport 10:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC))


 * Hee hee. I think I have this condition. I haven't been feeling tired until 2 AM since I was taking my GCSEs. Now I'm 20, doing Creative Writing at university and I hack it fine. I don't WANT it cured!!! [/soapbox] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lady BlahDeBlah (talk • contribs) 23:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I have considered that I may have DSPD, and that I do want to go see a doctor about this, but one thing puzzles me: Alot of you have said, and is stated on the article, that many will fall asleep around 3 am and wake up at about noonish. The same is not for me, at least at the awakening hours. I often now when waking in the morning shut off my alarm with little memory of doing so, and very rarely do I actually sleep through it. If left to my own devices, I will often be woken up at around noon by various people, but then go right back to sleep. If I'm not woken up at all, I'll often sleep in til 3 or 4 in the afternoon. During one summer, my sleeping cycle changed slowly but it increased to the point where I fell asleep at around 7 or 8 am and woke up at around supper time (5-6). Its not like that anymore, but I'll wake up very late on the weekends. I'm actually very wary of online diagnosis, but DSPD is the closest thing I've seen that "describes" me, because when I do sleep, I sleep very soundly, so insomnia seems rather ruled out. But it is nice to know that this sort of thing does have a name. I've had this since I was younger (although it wasn't entirely this late, it was just really late for kids my age at around 3 or 4). :) 204.112.155.232 23:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I also have this condition. I understand how DSPS can pose problems for us socially and professionally. The biggest challenge I have is establishing routine and discipline in my daily life. Being an entrepreneur helps, since I control my own time. But what I'd really like to know is if it has health implications. Does our sleeping time affect cell regeneration and repair? Will sleeping earlier help us live longer and healthier compared to regular late nights even if we get sufficient amount of sleep? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.104.176.96 (talk) 18:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I definitely have and always had the "symptoms" of this "disorder" and when looking at my family members I know where it comes from... Some of us could more or less manage to get used to the times of "normal" social life, but I don't think that's a healthy solution. When still at school, I suffered so much from headache and frequent colds and similar illnesses because of the lack of sleep. When I started university with subjects which mostly didn't force me to go to class in the morning, it was becoming just like paradise! Headache is reduced phantastically and I don't get colds more often than other people (about twice or three times a year), although I suffer from chronic asthma. As I was able to continue work at the university up to now and I managed to make clear that my work is much better and more efficient when I'm not forced to begin before noon, there's at the moment only a problem if there is a congress or library research with fixed or limited time. But, most important of all: I don't believe it's a disorder at all! Think: Perhaps you can't cure it successfully just because it is a normal biological thing coming down the families genetically, no disorder you have to cure! Hey, we just want to sleep at another time! Should we take drugs just because society is not able to adapt to some people waking up later and working into the evenings? What kind of crazy thought is that! Who does tell us what order and disorder regarding sleep means? There is no possibility to measure all the same way. Scientist did realize this. They know that there are people who are biologically shaped to wake up early and other people who stay awake long and need to sleep in the morning equally form biological reasons. And there are a great deal of people in between. To state that this is a disorder is just a kind of social terror against people who do not fit a socially defined norm. Nature is not that strict! And I don't think you can do yourself any good regarding health and life-time, if you are constantly living against your inner clock and against your nature. I think, it's the other way around: social rules force us to live in a way that makes us ill and shortens our life-times because we are not able to get the right amount of rest in sleep when we sleep at the wrong time. By the way: It's about 20% of all people who must be declared "chronically ill" if we measure this way. That's the number of people staying awake longer at night and being in need of sleep in the morning. But how many people do you know who had the opportunity to experience their own rhythm at all? How many people do KNOW about their own needs in this regard? We are brought up in a way that makes us ignore our needs or, if we know them, not to show them to other people, because sleeping in the morning is "lazy". Oh, yes, definitely! Don't you see how silly this is? How many people do you know you can get along a whole working day without excessive or at least considerable consume of coffee? Is that the right way? Filling ourselves with drugs (which coffein certainly is) to manage the lives we (human beings) needless impose on ourselves? All of you who think we should not tolerate to being forced to take drugs and to sleep in a way we become ill of; all of you who don't like to be labeled "ill" because of the difference between your natural needs and those of the majority; all of you who only want to get a new idea how you could think about your "disorder": please, visit this page: http://www.delta-t.org/. Best regards! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.183.222.81 (talk) 22:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that after 20 or so years of trying to change my sleeping patterns, I finally managed it by A) giving up caffeine and B) taking a holiday for a week in a sunny country that was a couple of hours ahead, just when British Summer Time kicked in. Since then I've been able to get to sleep about midnight instead of past 1AM, and have completely turned around my working day which used to start around 10 in the morning. Now I get in about 8.30 and it really freaks some of my co-workers out :) Try it! At least you'll have a holiday! Fractos (talk) 19:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Social vs. medical
I deleted, "Some sufferers deny the existence of any problem and refuse to accept that they may not be suited for a 9–5 lifestyle." From what I've seen, lack of awareness is very common, but most sufferers who learn that DSPS exists immediately acknowledge that they have it.

Kla'quot 09:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a strong social aspect involved. Sufferers who can manage combining the odd sleeping and waking hours and some kind of a social / work life would maintain that the problem is with social acceptance rather than their perception of the condition as a disorder that needs to be cured, whereas (many) other sufferers try to adapt. 212.178.112.106 00:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's definitely my point. For example, I like to stay awake until about 2 or 3 a.m. What about people who go to bed at ten or eleven in the evening? Are they lazy, because they don't want to work at night? Are they undisciplined? Do they annoy me, because I want to phone them just the time a problem arises - perhaps at midnight? No, it does not work this way around. But that's only because the are social conventions are the other way around. People who are not able to live their lives because their kind of work is not manageable with their normal sleeping hours suffer most. What choice do they have? But in a civilization which gives that much importance to individuals and the rights of individuals (what we all are), it seems quite cruel to force people to live totally against their own nature. We don't do this with other groups any more. And the problem of work would in many cases be less difficult, if there was more social acceptance and less silly thoughts like "people sleeping until noon are lazy". That's pure prejudice! And that's a thing which makes late sleepers suffer even more: They are forced to live an unhealthy life and to be tired all the time or they get no jobs and on the top of all they are told that they're lazy or unwilling to discipline themselves or they're ill, there is something badly wrong with them, they have to be cured. Why not let us be? Most work is not even necessarily done between eight and five. It's just a convention. And human beings love their conventions. But if they are harming people, one should think it over quickly! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.183.222.81 (talk) 22:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Acupuncture
Re: this edit:

Should acupuncture should be listed under Treatments?: I completely agree that complementary and alternative medicine techniques such as acupuncture should be included on this page if there is a reasonable amount of anecdotal evidence to support their use. Many Wikipedia articles do this, such as Asthma which is a featured article.

However, after doing some digging around with the links provided in the current version of the article, I can only find references to acupuncture for insomnia, not for circadian rhythm sleep disorders. Insomnia is a symptom of DSPS, but treatments for DSPS are very different from treatments for insomnia. Can you give any references or links that discuss acupuncture as a treatment for DSPS? If not, I think it would be better to move the references you mention to the Insomnia article. Su-laine.yeo 02:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing the acupuncture section and reference from the article and copying it below. If anyone can provide any good reference to support using acupuncture for DSPS, I'll be in favor of mentioning it.

Google Scholar Search for 'acupuncture' and 'sleep'
 * Acupuncture can be used to manage the condition. Several treatments may be necessary before results are seen (up to three session over the course of three weeks). Likewise, after treatment is stopped, the effects will take time to fade, and delayed sleep habits will again occur. For those of a scientific, dogmatic mindset, it should be noted that the lack of evidence does not preclude effectiveness; to assume otherwise is a logical fallacy, regardless of whether the methods of action are understood or not. There may just be a lack of funding. To exclude this option for those in need would be remiss, even if it may be the option of last resort. (Effects of acupuncture therapy on insomnia., Journal of Advanced Nursing, Volume 44, Number 4, November 2003, pp. 375-384(10), Sok S.R.; Erlen J.A.; Kim K.B.); (Effects of individualized acupuncture on sleep quality in HIV disease., J Assoc Nurses AIDS Care. 2001 Jan-Feb;12(1):27-39., Phillips KD, Skelton WD.); (Acupuncture Increases Nocturnal Melatonin Secretion and Reduces Insomnia and Anxiety: A Preliminary Report., J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci 16:19-28, February 2004, D. Warren Spence, et. al.); (Acupuncture and insomnia., Forsch Komplementarmed. 1999 Feb;6 Suppl 1:29-31., Montakab H.)

Kla'quot 04:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence, "Acupuncture works for at least one person." As there is no further explanation or reference, I would guess that the person who wrote it knows someone for whom acupuncture works. Please let me emphasize (again) that I have nothing against acupuncture and that I strongly wish there was more investigation into treatments for DSPS. However, including a "this works for me" kind of statement is simply not allowed on Wikipedia, according to No original research. If you have a novel treatment of DSPS that you think is effective, I encourage you to try to persuade a journalist or medical researcher to write about it. Wikipedia can then quote that journalist or researcher. Kla'quot 03:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Cannabis
I deleted this: "however many who suffer from it regularly use cannabis immediately before bed, which they say allows them to easily fall asleep, not forcing it like most medications." Some quick Google searching brought up this article: which indicates that marijuana may or may not be useful for insomnia. However, as with acupuncture, I can't find anything that says cannabis has an effect on circadian rhythm sleep disorders. If a reference can be found linking cannabis to treatment of DSPS, I have no problem with mentioning it. Kla'quot 16:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC) --- I am the user who added that line before it was deleted. I have no problem with it being on the discussion page for a little while, however I would like some others to comment on it, and if no one does, I wouldn't mind if it showed back up in the main article. I am afflicted with DSPS, I have been for years, an personally have used cannabis to remedy it, which has worked wonders and has been the only truly effective treatment that I have tried, amongst many. The difference is that instead of knocking you out, marijuana allows you to relax more readily and allows for natural sleep, at least for myself. This is not only personal information, and I actually learned of the technique from a friend who had the same problem, and solved it the same way. His had discussed his ongoing insomnia with his physician, identified it as DSPS, and over time found that a little marijuana before bed (not getting high and hanging out, but a small smoke then directly into bed) would do wonders for the problem, to which his physician not only approved but encouraged do to its effectiveness. I since then have become aware or numerous others who have used it in similar ways- now keep in mind that this is not a cure-all and I'm not one of those guys who believes marijuana is the fix for everything, and a modern day manna, however it haves proven to myself and many others to be a viable alternative to medication for this particular dissorder. Please enter any further discussion here. --
 * I think this would count as original research and therefore would not meet Wikipedia standards. JHP 19:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

-- Although I've never used cannabis I've heard many people vouch for its efficiency especially the strong indica variety and I think it deserves an official mention on the main page especially as it is medically available in Canada and some European countries.

Here is an article mentioning its ability to boost melatonin levels, http://web.archive.org/web/20010405064348/www.cures-not-wars.org/melajuana.html#graph

I think the general consensus is to only use a little bit before going to sleep not enough to get 'high' but I'll have to have a look around for more info from more reputable sources. if nobody objects I'll add something..

Dkin 19:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I also would agree that marijuana has helped me sleep more than any pill or treatment, and it feels like a much more natural sleep, as opposed to being knocked out by Ambien most nights... I've noticed that smoking a moderate amount of lower grade marijuana (less percentage of THC, the cheaper of the varieties, typically known as "mersh") allows me to sleep naturally at almost any time I want to. I personally can estimate whether or not I had enough REM sleep each day after I wake up, and with marijuana, I feel much more rested, and I have very normal dreams... The dreams aren't wacky or vivid, they remind me of how I used to dream when I was younger and had no problems with sleep whatsoever. Proving its relevance and efficacy is going to be very unlikely I presume, while I do hope that marijuana will be legalized some day, I can honestly say that it's a lost cause at this point in time because all politicians are too worried about their own self-image to approve the legalization of something that is typically a recreational drug, and a widely used illegal substance as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.209.91 (talk) 12:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)