Talk:Deliberative Council of Princes and Ministers/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Sven Manguard (talk · contribs) 20:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

GAN Quicksheet 1.24 SM (Criteria)

Starting comments: Per request of the author,, I will be doing the GA review for this. Please give me a few days.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  20:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

1. Well written:
 * a. prose/copyright: Pictogram voting delete.svg
 * As with the other GAN, please check my copyedits to make sure I didn't screw something up.
 * Everything looks, good, thank you! Madalibi (talk) 14:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "After Dorgon fell and was replaced by his co-regent Jirgalang" - "fell" should be clarified. The article on Dorgon (which could use some work, if you're looking for future projects) says he died in 1950, and then was posthumously humiliated in 1951. Is fell a reference to the death, the humiliation, or to a shift in power before Dorgon's death?
 * This is indeed unclear. I replaced this with "After Dorgon's death (1650) and after his supporters had been purged from the court (early 1651), his former co-regent Jirgalang..." Let me know if you think this is still unclear, especially to a reader who, unlike you, knows little about Chinese history. Madalibi (talk) 14:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Council met on imperial request, then transmitted the result of its deliberations to the emperor, who usually followed the Council's advice." - does this refer to how the council worked only during the reign of the Kangxi Emperor, or is this how it worked during the entirety of its existence. If it's the latter, this sentence needs to go somewhere else to avoid confusion, and to make the fact more prominent. If it's the former, the sentence should begin with "During the Kangxi Emperor's reign" to make it clear what time frame it applies to.
 * I chose to add "During the Kangxi Emperor's reign" because this is the period the two sources cited in the footnote are about. Madalibi (talk) 14:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Yongzheng Emperor succeeded Kangxi after a crisis that pitted many of Kangxi's sons against one another." - should we link crisis like: ? I am assuming that you're referring to that in this sentence.
 * Excellent suggestion. Fixed. Madalibi (talk) 14:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * b. MoS compliance: Pictogram resolved.svg

2. Accurate and verifiable: 
 * a. provides references: Pictogram resolved.svg
 * b. proper citation use: Pictogram resolved.svg
 * c. no original research: Pictogram resolved.svg

3. Broad in coverage:
 * a. covers main aspects: Pictogram voting delete.svg
 * I have absolutely no idea if this is complete or not. It's not a subject I have any grounding in. That being said, the only think that I was looking for in the article that I didn't get was a more depthful explanation as to what kinds of things the Deliberative Council actually deliberated. Do we know? Do we have examples? I gather that they weren't handling the day to day operations of the empire, but after that there's not much to go on.
 * Instead of adding a new section on the council's roles, I added sentences to each section to explain how the Council could be used by the different rulers and regents of the first half of the Qing. Apart from the corruption cases I mention in the Shunzhi paragraph, I found almost nothing about the council's role in discussing civil affairs. There seems to be a gap in scholarship on that particular aspect of Qing government... Anyway let me know if the new additions are sufficient! Madalibi (talk) 09:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * b. focused/on topic: Pictogram resolved.svg

4. Neutral: 

5. Stable: 

6. Image use: 
 * a. license/tagging correct: Pictogram resolved.svg
 * b. relevant/properly captioned: Pictogram resolved.svg

7. Additional items not required for a GA, but requested by the reviewer: 
 * a. images that should have alt texts have them: - these aren't really the kind of images that benefit from alt text
 * I still added alt text for the three images. Madalibi (talk) 09:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * b. general catch all and aesthetics: Pictogram resolved.svg

Comments after the initial review: Another well written piece. I left some comments in 1a and 3a. Message me when you're ready for me to take another look.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  05:37, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Second Pass
I am going to go ahead and bump this up to GA status, because it's 99% there now.

I have only one issue, which is a minor one. In the line "After Dorgon's death on the last day of 1650, the Shunzhi Emperor started his personal rule: he ordered the members of the Council to memorialize to him directly on important matters of state.", I am unclear as to what you mean by "memorialize", as it doesn't seem a fitting word based on the definition I am used to. That sentence might be better served with a different word.

That being said, this is GA quality work with or without that sentence, and I am not going to drag out the process for one minor change.

PROMOTED  S ven M anguard   Wha?  01:14, 14 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I just added "memorialize" without thinking. Professional deformation, I guess. :-) I inserted a piped link to memorial to the throne to clarify. Thank you for the helpful review! Madalibi (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)