Talk:Delta Kappa Gamma

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,, I'm starting this conversation because Elisa.rolle created the page and Primefac changed it to a redirect to the notable member. I think it may be notable (I've found a *ton* of information in *archives* at various Universities, but little on campus) *but* I think it is entirely (or almost entirely) a professional (non-collegiate) society. The chapters that I've found information on appear to exist in specific counties or smaller areas rather than at colleges (see the website for the State of Louisiana at https://epsilonstatedkg.org/ for example). I'm not sure that there are any non-collegiate american fraternities or sororities to use as a model here, but I think once notability has been dealt with. I actually got 8 or 9 hits with a search of news.google, mostly small town newspapers about what their local chapter has done. Any more ideas? ,, (sign to cause the pings)Naraht (talk) 17:04, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I only did a quick search when I saw the original posting, so if you've got plenty of information I have no qualms about undoing my edit and fleshing out the article. Primefac (talk) 17:09, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I created the page cause I had on profile who was member of it, and since I notice other similar pages existed, but not this one, I thought it was sort of "completing" the encyclopedia. Some info can be found here: but I'm also fine with the redirect. I do not like we lost the info on the other founders, who were almost all blue links (therefore important profile), but again, if Naraht wants to expand it, I thank you. ETA: as a model you can use the P.E.O. Sisterhood. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 17:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * II appear to have information (at least on founders and dates and similar). My question is notability. oddly enough after a decade on Wikipedia, I'm really not used to using (relatively) small town newspapers for this. Could people look at http://rrecord.com/local-dkg-chapter-seeks-new-members/ and let me know if that (and a few more like that) would be enough?Naraht (talk) 18:18, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I think this article is a good start; then this one, supporter of Unicef. And here some more info ... already these three article are a proof of notability according to me. Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:42, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * ,, Based on this, I'm going to undo all the way back to Elisa.rolle's first creation. I agree that the picture of Annie Blanton that was first used is problematic, but given the photos at http://www.dkg.org/DKGMember/About_Us/Annie_Webb_Blanton.aspx, can we use the last one? (She was born in about 1880 so she would be over 50 before a photo would be a problem, right?Naraht (talk) 20:32, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure the last one is around 1910, for sure she is not 43 in that one, therefore you are before 1923, therefor PD. Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm not sure it needs that photo though...Naraht (talk) 21:18, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate the pings, but only pinging me once was really needed. I came across this article why checking on non-free files which had been flagged for WP:NFCC violations because the Blanton photo was being used on a user page. I then saw the file was being used in this article as well, but lacked the non-free use rationale required by WP:NFCC (FWIW, I don't believe a valid non-free use rationale can be written for this file for this particular use) so I removed it per WP:NFCCE. After skimmy through the article, it's notability seem a bit iffy to me and it had yet to have been assessed so I asked about both at WT:FRAT. I'm assuming all of the subsequent editing which followed was from editors seeing that post.

Some general comments about the article: (1) Add some WikiProject banners, etc. to the talk page because doing will let others know about it. Some obvious candidates are Template:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities and Template:WikiProject Organizations, but there may be more. (2) Upload the logo shown here as non-free content (use Template:Non-free logo for the copyright tag and Template:Non-free use rationale logo for the rationale) to serve as the primary means of identification. If you're not sure how to do this, you can ask at WP:MCQ or WP:FFU. (3) An infobox such as Template:Infobox fraternity might also be an idea if there's enough information to make it more that a photo and one of two lines of text so it's not just WP:DISINFOBOX. (4) Try and find something more than primary or trivial mentions to use as sources. I'm not sure how this is typically done for Greek organizations, but better sourcing will make the sorority's Wikipedia notability clearer. From it's website the organization appears to still be active, so perhaps there's information about its current activities which can be incorporated in a neutral tone supported by citations to reliable sources. You might want to consider adding Template:Primary sources or Template:Refimprove because these will add the article to maintenance categories, which some WP:GNOMEs work off of when they are looking for things to improve. (5) Add an "External links" section and then add the official website (6) Expand the categories a bit more.

(Just for reference, I just posted the above as suggestions. I can do many of them myself so please don't interpret my suggestions as me commanding others to do it for me. The article is tagged with underconstruction so I just didn't want to step on anyone's toes.)

As for the photo of the founder. It's hard to say whether the one on that website would be considered to be in the PD. Age of the photo is one factor, but so are the date is was first published and the date the photographer who took the photo died. Simply assuming all of this is OK just based upon how old she looks in the photo might not be sufficient. Anymore information which can be found out about the photo would be helpful. I suggest asking for help at WP:MCQ. If that website photo can be uploaded as public domain, it should be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, so maybe asking at c:COM:VP/C would be a good idea as well. One last thing, the non-free image of Blanton will no longer be needed per WP:NFCC if the website photo can be uploaded as public domain. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

The Delta Kappa Gamma Society International (DKG)
As executive director of this organization, please note that this is NOT a Greek organization. The organization was founded at a time when women were not encouraged to organize in any way other than a social manner. The purposes of the organization focus on the empowerment of women and the promotion of excellence in education. I could not find the list of categories in order to change it. However, we are not a sorority but rather an non-profit educational organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitarscott (talk • contribs) 15:12, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hello. My name is User:Naraht, and I'm an experienced wikipedian specializing in Greek Letter Organizations. Please read WP:COI and WP:PAID, which basically end up saying that you (as the Executive Director of DKG) should put your suggested edits for the Wikipedia page about Delta Kappa Gamma here on this talk page rather than in the article.


 * In terms of what categories to put Delta Kappa Gamma in, are there other organizations either represented by Greek Letters or which aren't that you feel that Delta Kappa Gamma should be grouped with, that would help determine which categories Delta Kappa Gamma should belong in. I believe that there are organizations in the category that it is linked to (Category:Professional fraternities and sororities in the United States) that only admit those that have already graduated and gone into the field, but that is something to check. Sincerely NarahtNaraht (talk) 17:40, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You were WP:BOLD and made a change to the article and explained why in this thread. Another editor reverted your change and responded here explaining why. So, now it's up to you to engage in discussion with Naraht per WP:BRD and try and establish a consensus for the category change. Simply trying to force the edit through will eventually be seen as edit warring and will likely lead to an administrator being asked to intervene. Perhaps the existing category of Category:Professional fraternities and sororities in the United States should be changed; the question is whether it should be replaced by Category:Professional associations based in the United States or something else, and that is what this discussion is supposed to resolve.
 * Another thing with you editing the article has to to with WP:COI and WP:PAID. Your position with the organization does not give you any special editiorial control over the article as explained in WP:OWN; in fact, you would be much better off discussing your concerns about the article here on the talk page as explained in Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. Naraht has lots of experience with these types of articles, so I'm sure he will help get correct any errors you point out if doing so is in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines. You can also ask for help at WP:COIN and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities and even Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Organizations as well. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:44, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * , I've been discussing this with via email. At this point, the issues are society vs sorority, and I'm fine with the change to society and finding a good category. I was on machine that Wikipedia didn't like the IP address  that it was coming in from, so I didn't make the change there. I've changed to society and made the category Category:Education-related professional associations, which I think matches better. I'm not sure why Nitarscott feels that describing them as a Professional Fraternity or Sorority is that hurtful, but it does appear to be inaccurate given standard definitions. (However Alpha Phi Omega is in the Professional Fraternity Association and its almost as far away, IMO) I'll continue to work with her.Naraht (talk) 02:34, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That's fine and thank you for trying to help this editor out. You should advise her to really be careful with WP:PAID if she's planing on continue to edit. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:37, 2 July 2018 (UTC)