Talk:Demilich (band)

Untitled
Demilich is featured on the List of songs with particularly long titles.

Deletion problems
The Demilich (band) article has been deleted several times, and I have placed this section to safeguard from automatic deletion. It will be removed when the article has been here for some time. Before deciding to automatically delete this wiki, please consider the following. It meets the following tests:
 * (Please jump down to "Notice" for the ongoing discussion)
 * NOTE

This is a page about the band Demilich, who created a unique style of death metal vocals. The reasons why the page should not be deleted are:

It has been the subject of unreasonable deletion for a long time. The article has been deleted in the past based on pure prejudice (the very rules of notability have been circumvented: the article was deleted in the past because "the artists did not have two or more albums," while there is a section of the rules of notability (WP:MUSIC or WP:BAND) that STATES "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, dj etc) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria: (lists criteria)" It does NOT state that the band must have a particular criteria (Demilich falls into criteria in the "For performers outside of mass media traditions" section).  THE RULES HAVE BEEN CIRCUMVENTED!!

It passes the following tests:

Google Test -- Does the subject get lots of distinguishable hits on Google or another well known search mechanism? YES Google Test Results

Wikipedia Music notability, For performers outside of mass media traditions: -- Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre. YES Demilich have recorded many songs in the Death Metal genre, not just on official albums.

All Music Guide status -- Demilich is listed on All Music Guide.
 * ...any band can be on AMG. Stifle 11:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Resources

A good online resource for music and musicians is the All Music Guide (http://www.allmusic.com/), which although often out of date, does give a level of indication as to what a band or musician has done. (From WP:Music) +Johnson542 11:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability
The notability of this band is currently hard to verify. Can you please cite some reliable sources which provide details of how this band meets WP:MUSIC? Stifle 11:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Some verifications (what I have so far)
NOTE: Recent accusations by Stifle have driven me to believe he does not understand the death metal genre (this is not a personal attack, just a question posed to him)

I agree. I know very little about death metal. However, I know about WP:BAND. Stifle 17:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Anus.com reviews (a sign of notability in the metal community)
 * "Random progressive metal band from Finland, not entirely brutal but not ear candy in any way." - Note- to say that they are "not ear candy" would be a good thing for metal reviewers at Anus.com, because they are highly critical of anything like this. If you actually READ the article, at the bottom of the page, it says "This album is highly recommended"

[random user edit: wikipedia is a picky little **** that does not really support free information of any kind] All Music Guide lists them as having created a unique vocal style. This review was written by a well-known metal reviewer (Eduardo Rivadavia). He has reviewed bands on many pages and some of his reviews include (very famous for death metal bands)-Nile + Kreator + Vader + Amon Amarth, and has reviews for "many different rock genres but specializing, as always, in his personal hobby: extreme and obscure heavy metal." Ed Rivadavia has never been in Demilich.

The google results show too high of a hit rate for it to be considered "unnotable."

Deletion review
This has already been (unanimously) deleted through proper Afd so it has to at least go through WP:DRV which exists to resolve this type of deletion/recreation/deletion/recreation. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE
Stifle - if I still have not provided enough evidence, let me know. Also, refer to this wiki

Please read the section entitled "For performers outside of mass media traditions" in WP:BAND. Demilich falls into at least one of these categories, and according to the rules of notability the band does NOT have to have two albums released in order to be considered notable (referring to previous deletions that did not follow the rules of notability). Please consider this; constant deletion of Demilich articles is very annoying because the "For performers outside of mass media traditions" is being circumvented. +Johnson542 11:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

To be notable under this section, one of the following is needed. I have not seen any, merely links to reviews which slam the band, if anything.
 * Is cited in notable and verifiable sources as being influential in style, technique, repertory or teaching in a particular music genre.
 * To satisfy this criterion, please cite more than one source. Currently none cited.
 * See all below sources, please. Actually read the articles.  They all list the influences.***
 * Currently not satisfied. Stifle 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Has been a significant musical influence on a musician or composer that qualifies for the above list (for mainstream music)
 * To satisfy this criterion, please cite at least one musician or composer and provide verifiable evidence that they claim to have been influenced.
 * Demilich is outside the mainstream. However, their german wiki page has survived. ***
 * Currently not satisfied. This does not state that they have influenced another musician or composer. Stifle 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The band's demo song "Embalmed Beauty Sleep", was covered by the German death metal band Fleshcrawl. +Johnson542 21:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That'll do it. Thanks! Stifle

STIFLE PLEASE READ BELOW-
 * Has established a tradition or school in a particular genre.
 * To satisfy this criterion, please state what tradition or school has been established, with references.
 * "first put their own, uniquely Finnish influence into death metal" ***
 * Possibly satisfied. Can you please expand on the exact "tradition" or "school"? Stifle 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

"“Nespithe”, which was released by Necropolis Records in 1993, is considered to be a prime example of Finnish old school death metal since then and was and still is highly acclaimed by the whole death metal scene." (from previous source) Demilich helped introduce Finnish style into the death metal scene. See Finnish Death Metal+Johnson542 20:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre.
 * To satisfy this criterion, please specify the melodies, tunes, or standards, and provide verifiable evidence that they are used in a notable genre.


 * HERE IS A LIST OF SONGS- If you read the reviews, you will find that they are listed as [death metal], a notable genre.
 * Currently not satisfied. These are not melodies, tunes, or standards. They are songs. Stifle 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture.
 * To satisfy this criterion, please cite multiple publications, spanning at least several months.

BNR Metal Pages "their complex arrangements and musicianship definitely make them stand out from the crowd."
 * HERE: (note, just because you think a review "Slams" a band doesnt mean it does. and even so, a review is a review)

Anus.com "This album is highly recommended"

Metal Observer "“Nespithe“, so the title, is so extreme in almost every way that it almost hurts. Murderously brutal, mostly mid paced, interspersed with short speed attacks and with several damn complex riffs, which lets bands like WATCHTOWER or MEKONG DELTA look like mainstream bands. Plus a garglegrunt, who even lets the trolls from BROKEN HOPE and SUFFOCATION sound like Britney Spears."

Global Damnation "I quite like this and am very thankful that the band has decided to put their entire discography (including demos, artwork and booklets) to be downloaded in hi-quality formats (mp3, OGG or FLAC) for free"

Encyclopedia Metallum - Many reviews, most seem very positive.

Evilmusic.com Neutral factstating.

If six is not enough, I can continue. If you understand death metal, you will realize that these are very good reviews. "Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture." It does not specify that the publications cannot be online publications. The publications that I have listed are credible sources for Death Metal fans. The wikipedia says that I must prove this, not "satisfy a wikipedia user."
 * Anybody can set up a website. I'd like to see paper publications. Stifle 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Anybody can set up a website? Then under your logic, I shouldn't trust your word on this, since you are "anybody."  So I didn't.  See the Wikipedia entry Publications. "The word publication means the act of publishing, and it also means any writing of which copies are published, and any website."  The notability states that I have to prove that the band

I understand your frustration that the article about your (favourite)(Demilich is by no means my favorite band, I simply am seeking justice) band may be deleted. Please understand that Wikipedia articles must be verifiable and that articles on bands must verifiably meet at least one of the criteria in WP:MUSIC. Furthermore, a Consensus has previously been formed to delete the article.

As a compromise, I intend to remove the speedy deletion tags from the page and list the article on AFD again, as its content has probably changed since the last discussion anyway. I would encourage you to find something that satisfies the criteria above. There is a difference between stating that the band satisfies the criteria, which you have done, and showing it, which you have not done. Stifle 13:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

However, I'm also removing or transferring the second section of the article to here, as it's part of the discussion, not the article. Stifle 13:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Should this page have a link to long song titles like this?
==See also== -- Gbeeker 21:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * List of songs with particularly long titles
 * Can you elaborate? Im a little confused. +Johnson 16:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure - I started the article long song titles and it has grown to be a considerable list. Earlier, I had started putting a link to the article in the page of all the artists listed in the list. However, this was frowned on by an admin. So I moved the link to the discussion page. Now, I am soliciting your opinion - do you think this link should go on the artist page, or just on the album or song page (if listed)? Just click in the link above - that should give you an example of what I mean. By the way, I now see the wisdom jkelly has: the long song titles link isn't that significant, and doesn't belong on the artist page, so I have moved it to the discussion page for all artists, except for those artists with the very longest song titles. -- Gbeeker 04:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Gotcha, will do. Also, ever think of making a template? +Johnson 04:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Can't be bothered to read all of this bickering, my personal vote to keep Demilich is not by any stretch of the imagination an unnotable band.--Lone Isle 07:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "the long song titles link isn't that significant, and doesn't belong on the artist page, so I have moved it to the discussion page for all artists, except for those artists with the very longest song titles."

Of course Demilich is notable, I wrote this article. This has to do with the long song titles link. According to Gbeeker, the long song titles page is the unnotable aspect, and should be mentioned in the discussion page and not the article page. +Johnson 02:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Third paragraph...
I propose the deltion of the entire third paragraph ("While myriad of people..."). It's unencyclopedic in the extreme, and poorly written to boot. Is there anything there worth saving? --24.137.82.152 00:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

No-one objected here, so I'm going ahead with this. --RobHutten 03:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)