Talk:Democracy in the Middle East and North Africa

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2020 and 1 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AwaniKoe.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Thoughts
I thought I'd kick off the talk page here! Off the top of my head we might want to include:
 * Historical context:
 * end of the Ottoman Empire (the concepts of umta and millet),
 * nationalism
 * and USA/European involvement (oil, war promises, League of Nations mandates).
 * Hashemite monarchy &mdash; perhaps something on the role of Middle Eastern social structures informing modes of governance.
 * The effect of minority rule (e.g. Alawite-led government of Syria, Sunni-led goverment in Iraq.
 * The forces of modernisation versus religion in Egypt and Iran.

Some food for thought? Gareth Hughes 22:56, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Definitely food for thought, and important for constructing this article. These are all good topics, and I hope we can go for a topical approach (as opposed to country by country) as much as possible. The importance of minorities (both in power and out) in particular is something that perhaps isn't talked about enough. I think we can make good progress filling out these important topics.--Pharos 00:51, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Clarification: do you mean "the Middle East", or "the Middle East and North Africa"? If the former, Morocco seems a dubious candidate to invoke. - Mustafaa 01:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I had meant to use a broad definition of Middle East, including North Africa, simply because the areas are connected culturally, politically etc. The linguistic distinction is not a major issue to me either way (I know its a little silly geographically to call North Africa part of the "Middle East"), but I think it's useful to treat them together.--Pharos 01:11, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough; but in that case, maybe we should move it to "Democracy in the Middle East and North Africa". - Mustafaa 01:21, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's OK with me, but I hope we wouldn't have to change the name again to include a little about Afghanistan.--Pharos 01:34, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would have thought Afghanistan didn't belong here at all. Are you sure you don't mean "Democracy in the Muslim world"? - Mustafaa 01:39, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I know, I know, regions of the world aren't exactly defined, and Afghanistan is further from the "Middle East" than North Africa, but noone can say whether Afghanistan is in Central Asia or South Asia either. I recognize that Afghanistan is really a very borderline case, but considering recent history it's probably something that should be talked about to some extent at least.  Pakistan, for me, would definitely be going too far (no, I'm definitely not talking about "the Muslim world").--Pharos 01:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

FYI, there is an Islamic democracy article that might be useful to reference at appropriate places. -  BanyanTree 04:40, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

OK one can't include Afganistan in the Middle East anymore than you can include California in the MidWest. If you Include North Africa You really should change the name to "Democracy in Countries Conquered int he first wave of Muslim Expansion which Still Have a Muslim Majority" The Most important section is or should be on Baathism which mat at the moment be not doing that well but reamains the great home for democracy. --81.138.194.190 18:09, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I take your point; I would be rather inclined to have separate articles on Democracy in the Maghreb and Democracy in Central Asia. - Mustafaa 20:38, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Here's are a few interesting articles on democracy in the Middle East and the Muslim world that we may find helpful:

Marina Ottoway, et al., "Democratic Mirage in the Middle East," Carnegie Endowment for Ethics and International Peace, Policy Brief 20, (October 20, 2002). Internet, available online at: http://www.ceip.org/files/publications/HTMLBriefs-WP/20_October_2002_Policy_Brief/20009536v01.html

Chris Zambelis, "The Strategic Implications of Political Liberalization and Democratization in the Middle East," Parameters, (Autumn 2005). Internet, available online at: http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/05autumn/zambelis.htm

Bias on the list
Looking at the rights of Bedouins (Bedouins denied same protections: bedouin protection denied ), Rights of Christians, clamp downs on dissent in reporting, rise in racism especially against refugees from Africa, and those refugees being imprisoned. I really have to question Israels rankings in all the categories.

Where were those figures from? How about an independent source please? 96.31.177.52 (talk) 09:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Expansion
Should this article expand on the governments in some of the important or notable countries, or just link to, say, Politics of Bahrain? | Mr. Darcy talk 15:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I had to change the way some footnotes were made as they would have conflicted with the format of wikipedia's guidelines.Any new footnotes added would not have been in correct numerical order. Sophielaursen 01:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

How can this article not talk about Sharia Law? Sixer Fixer (talk) 04:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

NPOV, citation, Wikification, and opening paragraph
I've made some edits and I think I've resolved most of NPOV statements either by removing them or attaching citations. So, I've tentatively removed the NPOV warning for the entire article. Incidentally, most of the citations were done when I got here, but I guess nobody felt comfortable enough to remove the warning? While there are still a few citation-neededs and a couple of related problems in the article, I felt it was pretty safe to get rid of that too. I made an effort to wikify the main body of the article. I think it was mostly successful although of course it could be improved.

THAT SAID I think the opening paragraph of this article is very poor. Perhaps the original author would like to take another whack at it or someone could come up with a better preamble. This one not written concisely at all. It's full of run-on sentences. It had some POV problems that might persist, though I took out the most glaring one. Other than that I think this article is getting closer.

Also, I would say that the article smacked of an American bias, which certainly is not in line with the guideline that articles should include all relevant cultural perspectives. I kept the US point of view in, properly cited, where necessary (especially in the current state section), but I think this is a main problem with the opening paragraph.

Egypt and Syria do not have regular competitive elections for presidency. Paragraph is not clear about that and gives a non-neutral and incomplete opinion. Please revise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L (talk • contribs) 02:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Bias, Political agenda, suggest deletion or rename + re-working
The heading says it. If the title of the article was 'Government in the Middle East, that would be a good start. Otherwise the whole thrust of the article is promotion of a Non-NPOV! Fremte 23:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

An Anti-Israeli bias: Here appears in a refined version the myth, that the problems of the Middle East originate from Israel (alternatively sometimes the USA or Europe): "When asked about his thoughts regarding the current state of democracy in the region he said: “People's memories... not realizing that the reason for the current state of the Middle East was first, the Arab-Israeli conflict...". Is really the Arab-Israeli conflict the reason why the region is not and was never democratic? The relevance of this quotation is highly questionable and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.64.96.101 (talk) 14:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Anti-Israel bias? The rankings if anything are pro-Israel biased, ignoring key problems with regards to minority rights in Israel and Israeli controlled territories.  Especially when you look at the Bedouins, migrant Africans, and Palestinians. 96.31.177.52 (talk) 23:42, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Has US news been our major resource?
At the top of the article: As of 2009, American organization Freedom House recognizes Israel as the only fully-fledged, free electoral democracy of the Middle East.

Does this make sense? How about these, , ? --Email4mobile (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Worldwide view of this subject
There is a large amount of material in the present article that seems to come from a non-worldwide-POV, even a non-US-wide POV, since it excludes the academic work (POV) of famous dissidents like Noam Chomsky. A hint for people wishing to help balance the article would be to look through Deterring Democracy for some older XX-th century examples of the US' role of deliberately deterring democracy in the Middle East except when democracy was in its interests. It might make it more obvious that USA/France/UK (and now PRChina) - as States - have geostrategic interests in the area and that desires to support Middle East democracy from grassroots citizens' groups and rare dissenters among elites in those countries have to be distinguished from propaganda claims by governments/mainstream media.

Getting worldwide POVs would require a bit of work, but this Wikipedia is not the US.wikipedia.org. It's the English-language Wikipedia for knowledge about the World. So the work has to be done if this article is to be taken seriously.

Incidentally, the 2010–2011 popular overthrow of Ben Ali without a coup d'etat seems to have shocked Western commentators who promoted the racist belief that the populations of Arab countries somehow could not overthrow authoritarian leaders in the same grassroots way that happens almost everywhere else in the world, but instead they need to be bombed and invaded for their own good. Suddenly there's the discovery that maybe Tunisia does not "need" to be bombed and invaded! Something on this (not my comments) should go in the article.

With enough work done, this might potentially become a good article.

If editing starts becoming conflictual on this article, anyone should feel free to add  at the top of this Talk page, since this editorial "sanctions regime" extends to all articles relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict "broadly construed". ("Sanctions" here do not mean preventing food and medicines from reaching Wikipedia editors.) See Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles for details.

Disclaimer: i am not an admin. :) Boud (talk) 23:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

2010-2011 Middle East and North Africa Protests
2010-2011 Middle East and North Africa Protests

2010-2011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_Protests

I have added this to the page, as the two are directly related. --Smart30 (talk) 13:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I have tired to put somewhere where I thought it belonged -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Everything about Turkey is wrong
Hello

Everything about Turkey is wrong, like made about a Turkish government from a long time ago, or just made by people who ignore about Turkey or someone who just hates Turkey.

Turkey is acceding to the European Union and it has higher standards than many countries inside it so.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.184.208.56 (talk) 22:43, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

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North Africa is not the middle east
The whole idea about this article is based on the wrong foot, if we are going to talk about democracies in the middle east, then we should not include countries from regions like North Africa nor South Asia, it would have been better if there was a second article talking about Democracies in North Africa or should i say Democracy in Tunisia. Greetings. SERVITAS VITAE (talk) 13:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

So maybe instead of "Middle East", it should be "Middle East and North Africa"? There is, after all, the term MENA (Middle East and North Africa) with an attendant Wikipedia article. 73.97.151.151 (talk) 00:31, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move 19 May 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  ♠ 00:20, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Democracy in the Middle East → Democracy in the Middle East and North Africa – This covers North Africa in addition to the Middle East. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 21:33, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:01, 20 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Scare Quotes
Is there any way to avoid the potentially ambiguous use of scare quotes in the introduction? The intro reads: Freedom House categorizes Israel and Tunisia as "Free"... Are Israel and Tunisia free, or are they "free"? Is this a direct quote, or an implication that they are not truly free? Duey (talk) 04:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Palestine section
The Palestine section seems to not be particularly accurate.Here are a few issues:

"Prior to the mass immigration of Israeli citizens to the region and the two-state solution"

Jews were not Israelis until 1948 but more importantly there has been no two state solution as of yet.

"there was no formal government or authority in the land known as Palestine. Society operated without a democracy, monarchy or dictatorship; merely a conglomerate of tribes, clans, villages and communities headed by a select few elders known as "Sheikhs" also transliterated Sheik, Sheyikh, Shaykh, Shayk, Cheikh, Shekh, Shaik and Shaikh"[34]

Haven't been able to follow up the source here but there under the Ottomans and the British there was most definitely structures of government in place.

"The two state solution drastically altered this and effectively displaced an overwhelming amount of Palestinians."

Again the two state solution has not happened and the Palestinian refugees does seem completely relevant here.

"As a result, the semi-political organization, Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) was formed. Yasser Arafat served as chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization from 1969 to 2004 and is considered one of the most influential Palestinian leaders.[35]"

This is more or less correct but does not seem to be addressing overall the subject of democracy in the Palestinian territories.

Given all of this I would propose deleting the Palestine section and rewriting it about the structures of government in the West Bank and Gaza.

Adam Bernstein (talk) 18:56, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

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Freedom index vs Democracy index
I believe Freedom index is not relevant for this page since, the Title of this page is Democracy in the Middle East and North Africa and not Freedom in the Middle East and North Africa. Amitai Scott you reverted back to freedom index, can you explain why freedom index is more relevant than a democracy index for this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HudecEmil (talk • contribs) 09:44, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * But I agree with you that the table could look prettier, will update. HudecEmil (talk) 09:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree. Is the freedom index even related to democracy methodologically? I can't tell because the 'introduction' link is currently broken, but Freedom House is also not the most neutral research outlet - it has close US gov ties. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:38, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The freedom index looks at both civil liberties and political rights (with some aspects of elections). While there is a contribution of democracy, and categorizes countries if they are "electoral democracies" or not, the index cannot be categorized as purely democracy index, only as mixed democracy and civil rights index. Currently, the methologically most sound democracy index is probably V-Dem Democracy indices. HudecEmil (talk) 12:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I've since noticed that Freedom House is also both a research and advocacy organization, further diminishing their respectability as a reliable source for concrete metrics not colored by all sorts of explicit and implicit bias. The Democracy Index and V-Dem Democracy indices both seem like obviously better bets, and it is after all the former that appears in the intro. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:18, 27 February 2023 (UTC)