Talk:Demographic history of Poland

Missing cities
Besides the fact that we have glaring gaps in many estimates, I think we could use date for Łódź (now the 2nd largest city in Poland!) and Kijów (important regional capital in the past). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Polish
Vilnius and Trakai Polish cities? Disputable.--Lokyz 09:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sigh. I imagine you would find it so. Read the disclaimer at Historical_demographics_of_Poland which I prepared just in case, and feel free to complain to professor Tertius Chandler.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

@Early post-war period
In my opinion it is not right to say "former German territories" for the post-war period because the (Western) Allies considered them still as German - and like this it was officially declared at the Potsdam Conference.

Wikiferdi 21:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect sum
The phrase
 * Shortly after the Union of Lublin (1569), at the turn of the century, the Commonwealth population was around 7 million, with a rough breakdown of 4,5 Poles, 0,75 Lithuanians, 0,7 Jews and 2m Ruthenians

is flawed, as the individual populations sum to 8m not 7m.

Cngoulimis (talk) 22:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sources are given - can you double check them and see where the error might have originated from? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

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Numbers in urban demographics table very odd
For Trakai(Troki) in 1400 the population is 50000 (fifty thousands!) i find it completly unbelivable and since there is no other data for Trakai at any other date it should be considered an error. Kraków at the same date has 18000 and Gdańsk in 1430 only 20000.

Also Vilnius(Wilno) population is very high, for exemple 40000 in 16000 makes it second city of PLC after Gdańsk (only 9000 less). The source: Tertius Chandler, 1987, Four Thousand Years of Urban Growth: An Historical Census should be confronted with other sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.91.17 (talk) 02:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed they are. The listing for Breslau/Wroclaw ends in 1756 and then in 1890, lists the city as having 65,000 inhabitants, while Population Statistics shows that it had a total of 335,200.  There are numerous gaps regarding the 'recovered' cities of Breslau/Wroclaw and Stettin/Szczecin.Prussia1231 (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)Prussia1231

Some more numbers
In this passage: (...) Shortly after the Union of Lublin (1569), at the turn of the century, the Commonwealth population was around 7 million, with a rough breakdown of 4,5 Poles, 0,75 Lithuanians, 0,7 Jews and 2m Ruthenians.[2] In 1618, after the Truce of Deulino the Commonwealth population increased together with its territory, reaching 11,5 millions that could be roughly divided into: Poles - 4,5m, Ukrainians - 3,5m, Belarusians - 1,5m, Lithuanians - 0,75m, Prussians - 0,75m, Jews - 0,5m, Livionians - 0,5m; at that time nobility formed 10% and burghers, 15%.[3] Population losses of 1648-1657 are estimated at 4m.[3] Coupled with further population and territorial losses, in 1717 Commonwealth population had fallen to 9m, roughly 4,5m Poles, 1,5m Ukrainians, 1,2m Belarusians, 0,8m Lithuanians, 0,5m Jews, 0,5m others[3]

As we can see in 1569 there are 4,5 milions of Poles and 2m Ruthenians but in 1618 the number of Poles stay the same and there are 5m Ruthenians - its a 150% increase in 50 years ! Only one population is growing rapidly when others do not. Even if we consider some teritorial gains its simply impossible. The numbers are based mainly on Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, Poland a Historical Atlas, Hippocrene Books, 1987 but the source should be checked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.91.17 (talk) 02:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Removal of parts of the article
I have removed parts of the article about Jews in Poland. It is unrelated to the topic, as there already is a separate article on the history of Jews in Poland. Let me remind all that the article is on Historical Demography of Poland, not on pogroms. Tymek (talk) 22:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

5- Population gain Recovered Territories
I'm a bit confused on the figures from this section, in the table labeled Poland's Population Balance-(1939-1950). Are the population gains based on after expulsion was nearly completed? If so that makes more sense and may be a good idea to include, as pre-expulsion I don't understand how there would be zero population gain of Germans from those territories. Hoping to get some insight so that could be worded a little better. MagicBear (talk) 00:59, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That is the population that remained in the former German territories. They were bilingual Polish-German persons who choose to become Polish citizens. For example I knew a person who had two uncles, the first was a German Army veteran from WW2 who stayed in Poland and became a member of the Polish United Workers(Communist) party; the second an SS veteran, fled to West Germany. My great grandfather was smart, after he finished his German military service in 1886 he got a one way ticket to the USA. --Woogie10w (talk) 06:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Poland Population 1914-18
Note well that the population declined 4-5 million because men were drafted in the Army and Poles went to work in Germany, about 1 million were actual deaths. --Woogie10w (talk) 18:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Source? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Ludnosc Polski w XX wieku / Andrzej Gawryszewski. Warsaw 2005. This book is a gold mine of data on Poland's population in the 20th century.--Woogie10w (talk) 19:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Perhaps you could use the book to expand our article? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

1815 Estimate of Poles in Prussia is way off
Ok, under the 'Partitions' section, it states that "An estimate for 1815 gives 11 million Poles, out of which 5m were under Russian control (4 million in Congress Poland and 1 million in the territories incorporated into the Russian Empire), 3.5m in the Prussian partition territories and 3m in the Austrian partition territories."

This is nonsense. Firstly the sum of 5,000,000, 3,500,000 and 3,000,000 is 11,500,000, not 11,000,000. Secondly, West Prussia and Posen combined only had a population of 1,391,257, while the statement says 'Prussian partition territories.'

As for the 3.5 million figure, in 1816, East Prussia (886,174), West Prussia (571,081), Posen (820,176) and Prussian Silesia (1,942,063) combined had a population of roughly 4,219,494. With regard to Prussian Silesia, only 524,784 people lived in the Opplen District which was roughly 5/8 Polish. Claiming that there were 3,500,000 Poles there would make those territories 82.9% Polish, something which is absurd. Going by statistics from German Wiki, that in 1831 Prussian Silesia was 23% Polish, Posen being 71.5% and West Prussia being 41.8%. Now as of 1831, the population of East Prussia (1,243,571), West Prussia (782,356), Posen (1,056,278) and Prussian Silesia (2,464,414) combined totaled 5,546,618 or 4,303,047 excluding East Prussia, as I have no data for the percentage of Poles/Masurians aside from the fact that they exceeded 20% of the population. The whole of territory with revised population demographic information (i.e., excluding East Prussia) would have been roughly 61.7% German with 2,653,969 Germans and 38.3% Polish with 1,649,078 Poles. The fact that the 1816 population was only 76.1% as high as the 1831 population would suggest that the Polish element, minus East Prussia would have been some 1,254,500 in 1816. Given this data, I cannot see the number of Poles in Prussia exceeding 1,500,000 in 1816, and that figure of 1,500,000 would require East Prussia to be 27.7% Polish.

As for Congress Poland, according to Population Statistics, it had a population of 4,344,400 in 1838. Between 1838 and 1862, the population of Congress Poland climbed at a slow and steady rate of around 0.6% per year, reaching 4,972,200 in 1862. Working backwards, one could suggest that it's population was around 3,825,000 in 1816, however that would exclude the revolt of 1831 and its aftermath. Most likely, according to other articles, the population of Congress Poland was 3,250,000-3,500,000, a far cry from in excess of 4,000,000. I would honestly be surprised if the Polish population of Russia as of 1815 exceeded 3,500,000 (2,800,000 in Congress Poland, 700,000 elsewhere, especially in Bialystok and Ukraine)

As for Galicia, in 1815, it's population was, 3,778,000 (including Bukovina but excluding Cracow) according to Population Statistics. I cannot see the Polish Population of Austria (including Hungary) as of 1815 exceeding 1,800,000.

Here are the links:

1816-1914 population data of the Prussian Provinces: http://www.hgisg-ekompendium.ieg-mainz.de/Dokumentation_Datensaetze/Zeitreihen/Bevoelkerung/Provinzen.php

1816-1914 population data of the Prussian Regierungsbezirk: http://www.hgisg-ekompendium.ieg-mainz.de/Dokumentation_Datensaetze/Zeitreihen/Bevoelkerung/Regierungsbezirke.php

Population Statistics: http://www.populstat.info/

German Wiki for Posen: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinz_Posen#Bev.C3.B6lkerungsstatistik

German Wiki for West Prussia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westpreu%C3%9Fen#Bev.C3.B6lkerungsstatistik

Silesia article showing the '23% Poles': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Silesia#German_Empire_and_Austro-Hungarian_Empire

75.86.130.83 (talk) 04:58, 12 August 2009 (UTC)Prussian-Polish Historian

World War Two Update
I just did an update of the WW2 section using two current sources.


 * Piesowicz, Kazimierz. Demographic effects of World War II. [Demograficzne skutki II wojny swiatowej.] Studia Demograficzne, No. 1/87, 1987.


 * Wojciech Materski and Tomasz Szarota. Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami.Institute of National Remembrance(IPN) Warszawa 2009 ISBN 978-83-7629-067-6

The main changes are as follows:

Population 1932- I deleted because it is unrelated to topic of WW2 losses, all we need is 1939 balance

Population 1939- This is the balance per Piesowicz and is in fact the correct allocation by language spoken.

Natural Increase 1939-45 This is the balance per Piesowicz and agrees to the stats from the US Census bureau

Transfer of Germans- This reflects actual transfers. Agrees to Piesowicz who splits transfers by 500,000 during war and 200,000 post war. Stanisław Jankowiak, in Wysiedlenie i emigracja ludności niemieckiej puts number of prewar ethnic Germans at 70,000 in 1950.

War Dead This is the IPN balance per Materski and Szarota. Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe from 2009. The previous figures were from Tadeusz Piotrowski's 2005 estimates. Piotrowski is a good source however I believe the IPN figures are more reliable.

Population remaining in USSR Piesowicz puts the figure at 7.8 million which brings war losses up to 6 million. The IPN figure of 5.8 million war dead ties out to 8.0 million remaining in the USSR. I cut out the unnecessary details on the 1959 Sovirt census, borderline OR.

Population Recovered Territories-This is the balance per Piesowicz and reflects the fact that 200,000 additional Germans were still in Poland in 1950. This agrees also to the data in Jankowiak, Wysiedlenie i emigracja ludności niemieckiej

Natural increase 1946-50 Per Piesowicz, the other figure of 2.160 million is a close approximation

Re-Immigration Agrees to Piesowicz and 1950 Polish census data of 205,000.

Population 1950- Per Piesowicz except that he has 200,000 Jews and 24.4 million Poles. Jankowiak, in Wysiedlenie i emigracja ludności niemieckiej puts the Germans at 170,000, which is close to Piesowicz.

Please remember Piesowicz clearly points out that the figures are approximate, not an exact accounting of losses.

This I hope this explains my changes--Woogie10w (talk) 22:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Long IP edit
re: IP's edit summary: Undid revision 684535103 by Volunteer Marek (talk)Removing erroneous chart and numbers contrary to 1931 Polish Census which it purports to represent per Wikipedia:Verifiability
 * Please explain how the map is erroneous. Also, someone IP edited the table in the image page and screwed up the columns. I reverted the edit. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:24, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The map does not accurately report on the self-described Ruthenian population in the former Galician voivods. Instead, it incorrectly reports the Ruthenians in the 1931 Polish Census were actually Ukrainians.  If you read the document itself, that is not how it was reported.  The Soviet view was that the Kresy was actually occupied Belarus and Ukraine.  So by republishing that graphic with the erroneous data and attribution, it is promoting some kind of Soviet/nationalist POV that all Ruthenians were actually Ukrainians, and that the Polesians were actually Belarussians, and thus the Soviet invasion, and expulsion were somehow morally justified.  The census showed a more complex ethnic situation than the map visually expressed.  Also note that modern Russian scholars appear to support the Polish census.  The Russian map that you reverted proved that point.  It appeared in a serious publication, both in Russia and in the U.S. I believe it is relevant for purposes of this page for maintaining a NPOV.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor Franklin (talk • contribs) 02:39, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Lev Gumilev's ethnic map of the Eastern Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth region published in Russki Geopoliticheskii Sbornik 1997
I have restored this map and I corrected a small error in the translation. Some Ukrainians may not like the usage of the term "Little Russians" as they had been called in tsarist Russia, but it is an accurate translation of the map and Gumilev's work. Since this map describes the ethnic diversity of the Ruthenians in the Commonwealth, and confirms the ethnic complexity reported in the 1931 Polish Census, I don't think we can just dismiss this as just Russian jingoism.Doctor Franklin (talk) 16:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * And I removed the speculative map again. This is 21st century. Ukrainians are not and were never "subethnos" of "Great Russian people". This is all Russian Chauvinist propaganda. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:10, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The point is a bit broader. In the Ruthenian part of the Commonwealth, there were various Ruthenian ethnic groups.  The nobility eventually Polonized, as did more urban areas, but the countryside remained Ruthenian.  That continued into to Second Polish Republic in the 20th century.  Perhaps there is a better map for this, but it does illustrate different Ruthenian groups in the region which isn't all propaganda.Doctor Franklin (talk) 04:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The point is two more bits broader than you think. There is no and never was an ethnic groups called "novorossians, southrossians, blackrossians" (or *-ruthenians, if you prefer "wikipedized" translation). I will not go into details of the territorial and terminological confusion. This is nothing but Russian propaganda. And by the way, the image is non-free and does not conform our rules for fair use in this article, so I am listing it for deletion. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

1921 Census
In 1921 the Polish census did not have the category "Ukrainian" they were all "narodowość rusińska" -Rusyns--Woogie10w (talk) 13:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

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Is the WWII table correct?
See Talk:World_War_II_casualties_of_Poland regarding the numbers. Comments welcome. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:57, 8 March 2023 (UTC)