Talk:Demographics of France/Archive 1

French People and Race
Is Iberian, Italian, Greek influence significant enough to warrant a mention? Sure these groups have been in France but to mention French people are descended by them is just a flat out exageration Firstly there is existing data for genetic plotting of most western european countries. Northern Italians barely overlap with France let alone Southern Italy or Greece overlapping with them. It's like saying British people are descended from Romans except British people on average don't overlap at all with Italians. Some southern French may overlap with Northern Italians (mainly due to the celtic relation) but that's about as far as overlap between Italy and France goes. French don't overlap with Greeks at all. Look at where France is plotted and how the rest of the South drifts. Look at where Greece plots. Spain is the one with the most overlap. The French are more related to Germans, Brits and other west/central euros than they are southerners save Spain, and even then the relation with Spain would be mostly a miniority of southern French.

http://i.hizliresim.com/gld833.jpg

Can we have a link for this : "One major difference in the recent growth is that most of the growth since the 1970s comes from from Muslim immigration and births rather than growth among the native French." originating from 128.101.160.103 ?
 * this is false, France demograpy is one of the less dependant from imigration in Europe  . Muslim women have 2.2 childs in average and "native" women 1.65.

What is "to be French" ? quick info on the subject
This article is lot better written than French people, which has been rightly nominated for deletion. However, it is to note that according to the French Constitution, to be French means to have acquired French nationality, which is based on jus soli ("right of territory") and not jus sanguinis'' ("right of blood"), commonly considered in France to be a racist law. Demographics of France will thus have this specificity concerning other entries about demographics that, according to French law, it is forbidden to use the term "Ethnic French" (Français de souche, more often used by the far-right Front national) in official statistics. Thus, it will be impossible to find official French references on this matter, whether by theINED or by the INSEE. Hence, the reference in the introduction to "ethnic stocks" should be removed. Lapaz 19:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

La Paz you are now going over the top in your attempts to censor wikipedia... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.45.176.95 (talk • contribs).

"French People"
I don't understand the disclaimer. The article on the demographics of Italy include all Italians (as per nationality), not just people of some ethnic origins. So why should France be treated differently?

French people merge
The French people entry has been nominated for deletion, with a majority of 29 votes approving deletion against 22 refusing it. However, it hasn't been deleted (I didn't know this was possible - so votes for deletion are just... deleted votes?). Merging it here may therefore be the best solution, as demographics concerns population, and the term "French people" designs French population - being constituted by French citizens -. Lapaz 20:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

That is you mean constituted by the government of the French Republic. Also, your count is flawed as there are netural "votes" and some people "voted" more than once. Regardless, I don't believe whether this is a "vote" in any way and even if it were, it would require the attention of the entire Wikipedia community (without any one POV advertising the case). I dont believe that 50 or so people should justify whether the article remains or not or whether or not if it is to be merged (there appears to be groups of users who have a far left wing political agenda). The information on race and ethnicity which you have used to support your POV is only one side of that debate and the majority of academics refute much of those theories. '''The current POV on the topic is equally split and you should not denote other users contributions which oppose your POV as inconsiderate, irrelevant or wrong. Wikipedia is for everyone.''' Epf 21:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, no, Wikipedia is only for relevant POV. It is not for POV of mere Wikipedians. Marc Mongenet 04:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Everyone has a relevant POV and to say otherwise is ignorant.

Both of these articles are of a decent but comfortable length and, as their names suggest and their content shows, they cover different topics. Demographics of France is primarily statistical whereas French people takes a more sociological, historical and evolutionary look at the people of France who - as they themselves will say - have a very strong sense of national identity (and likely wouldn't be happy if the page was deleted). And I'm not a hardline Francophile or anything, I just think there's a very strong case for the French people page to remain. Definitely keep them as separate articles. Iancaddy 23:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Why is it that Europeans have two articles whereas the US only have their demographics article? I would agree on keeping both here but then the differentiation has to be made more than clear! And this article here needs a major extension! 27 February 2006

Historical overview section: 1800 to 20th century reeks of bias
This particular section has odd biased bits added to it. Most of this section (including the entirety of the last paragraph) includes far to much postulation and the few relevant information is largely lost in-between. It`s like someone is trying to make a case or argument, but event ignoring that this isn't the place for that, the argument is so badly structured it`s hard to tell what they were going for. 216.46.26.2 (talk) 19:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Picture
The passport picture has been added here to put something and clearly show that the French people is whoever has French citizenship, including those living in the French overseas departments and territories. However, it would be good to add another picture showing France's ethnical diversity in a nice way, which often strikes visitors, in particular compared to other European countries such as Spain. I'll add that i don't know how the picture process goes... Lapaz

French demographic bust
I came to this article hoping to get some insight as to the cause of French demographic exceptionalism. While the article does very well explaining how much France has differed from its European neighbors and debunking 19th century racist explanations, it doesn't explain the cause of this difference well. Could an expert please add to this?

What is the population density of modern France? How does it compare to Britain, Germany, the US, the US east of the Mississippi, Turkey, Italy, India, China, Japan? What factors allowed France to have a much higher population density than Germany in the Middle Ages? Why has Catholic Ireland maintained high birth rates but not Catholic France? David s graff 03:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not a place to ask questions mister, its a place for dialogue about the article, if you think this is important add it into the article somewhere, you don't have to be an expert, just put in what you know and watch it grow, or do some research (non-original) and add and cite this information. 71.142.78.14 23:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Qrc2006 23:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * These are good questions; I don't know the cause either. I do know that France's population density is much lower than that of Britain (England in particular) and Germany. Also, France has generally been a less devoutly Catholic country than Ireland - but at any rate, their birthrates are about the same today. Funnyhat 22:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Many questions, enough for a thesis (if you're in for another Ph.D !) Let's just say that although Ireland has remained quite Catholic, France has long forgotten this... which isn't to please some erred-folks called Society of St. Pius X (which our nice pope is bringing back into path, God bless his soul!)... Lapaz

Out of Place
''Several incidents opposed immigrant manpower with the local population. Thus, a pogrom against Italian workers whom worked in the salt evaporation ponds of Peccais erupted in Aigues-Mortes in 1893, killing nine and injuring hundreds on the Italian side (Enzo Barnabà, Le sang des marais, Marseille, 1993)''

This does note make sense since it is used to explain the use of immigration for population recovery between the two world wars. I think i'm going to remove it and if anyone disagrees put it back in, but theres probably a better place to do it, or reword it if you do. 71.142.78.14 23:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC) Qrc2006 23:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Immigration issues are relevant in an articles about demographics, IMO. Lapaz

Historical population of metropolitan France

Some figure are very different with the French version of the article.

-- year 1 (5,500,000 English; 7 000 000 French version)

-- Year 400 (5,500,000 English; 12 000 000 French version)

-- Year 1400 (16,600,000 English; 12 000 000 French version)

And many more... Can someone explain ? Froggy helps ;-) 06:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Please provide sources. French Wiki is not any better than here (actually, most of the times it's worst...) Lapaz


 * Unfortunately, census wasn't available centuries ago, so these are estimates subject to caution, in addition, numbers may vary depending what territory is considered, the borders of France have expanded quite a bit since the middle ages. 82.231.41.7 (talk) 19:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Index-Category box
I was wondering about an index-category box similar to the one in "Demographics of Hong Kong" - something stylish..is this a good idea? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MonsieurAquilone (talk • contribs) 07:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


 * I don't think so, IMHO. Boxes have a tendency to simplify things, and HK's one is more about culture & music than anything else. We wouldn't even agree on which numbers to put in! :) Lapaz

This Seems wrong
Also, the proportion of immigrants in France is on par with other European nations such as the United Kingdom (15%) [5], Germany (10%) [6], the Netherlands (20%) [7], Sweden (15%) [8] and Switzerland (19%) [9].

not even the sources it links to back it up


 * If you see some falsehood, put some tag, or delete on sight! Be bold! Lapaz


 * Edited some numbers around, so they correspong with the sources CorneliusStump

Disclaimer
I have no problem with the content of the disclaimer, however it appears extremely out of place - such a detailed and lengthy explanation about ethnicity placed at the top of the article before any discussion about Demographics. Perhaps it should go in its own section a little further down the page. Please comment or edit. -- zzuuzz (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * See talk at Talk:French people. It has been quite a trouble defining who could be considered "French", some people from various origins and POV have quite different views on the matter. The French Republic has another one &mdash; and thus explains this disclaimer. I'll be pleased to explain further if you want... Lapaz 04:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I actually fully appreciate all the problems surrounding French 'ethnicity'. This is really an issue of style, and concerns the fact that this article is about Demographics, and France, and not the definition of "French people" or ethnicity. It could be turned into a good section in the article, I think, but is quite out of context as the introduction to this article. This article is about the demographics of France, and should begin with an introduction to that subject. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You could be right. Although I see the disclaimer as a necessary warning: since this article relies on statistics, I believe it appropriate to include this warning that no official statistics in France gather ethnical or religious information. This choice has been made about a year ago, in particular because some Wikipedians insisted on using the CIA worldbook as source for statistical information on the population of France (on both this article and French people) rather than official French statistic. You surely are aware that demographics is a sensitive issue &mdash; it's not a surprise that the sub-section about immigration carries a lot more weight than, say, the babyboom and the general aging of the population. This said, Be bold and propose a change for the better! Lapaz

Racial demographics
I would like to see a breakdown of the French population by race. Could someone please add this information to the article?


 * Hi, racial census are unfortunately forbidden in France —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.57.245.132 (talk) 01:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Rename from demographics to demography
Please see Talk:Demography/Archives/2012 and comment.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

1 cuban
is this supposed to be 1000? or no cubans at all? im really bored and im a dumbass which is why im writing this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.240.136 (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Population not of foreign ancestry not much higher than pop after WWII ? Heh ?
I'm removing the following:

"Note that this means the population that is not of foreign ancestry is only about 46 million, which is not much higher than France's population at the end of World War II (1945)."

Which is not informative in the least. 1) "not much higher" is entirely vague and subjective. 2) a number of French people at the end of World War II were of "foreign ancestry" just as well, so it's apples compared to apples plus oranges. 3) the statement is connotative, Wikipedia however, is not a newspaper column. 82.231.41.7 (talk) 18:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Likewise I'm removing the statement that the number of arabs and africans is "estimated to be around 10 million ..". The source itself contradicts that statement (it claims 8 millions of "visible minorities", asians, maghreb, africa, dom-tom, not 10 million "arabs and africans"), and is a "think-tank" making dubious "estimates" (claiming 5-6 million people from Maghreb out of thin air). Let's stick to proper demographic sources 82.231.41.7 (talk) 19:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing some far-rightisms
I'm removing this part : some demographers state "the third world Neo-colonization of Europe" might (and had) make France an "outpost of the Arab world". It is unsourced and the only time I heard some people displaying these ideas, there were from the far-right political spectrum. I doubt that with 4% muslims, any demographer would call France an outpost of the Arab world.

I am also not sure the term "Afro-French" is appropriate, especially as a synonymous for "black French" as many black French actually come from the Antilles territories that are an official part of the country. When the skin color is relevant to a discussion, French people just plainly call them "noirs" or precise their country or outersea department of origin. The term "black" (in English) is often used as well in French conversations. I'm leaving the rest untouched but it surely could use a citation. --Iv (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism
The graph on this article seems to be plagiarised - I found the same graph elsewhere on this website: http://www.population-demographie.org/pdf/Population_France_depuis_1801.pdf, listed as copyright... 118.90.17.9 (talk) 00:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Chart needs to be updated...
The chart with birthrates for foreigners, French born women, etc. needs to be updated. It claims, for example, that from 1991-1998 the birthrate in Algeria was about 3.5. Which is correct. It omits, however, the fact that the birthrate in algeria has (since then) halved.

18:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)Bryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.237.249 (talk)

The Ethnic Groups section has unsourced statements.
There are several figures in this section without any sources cited. Some of them are substantially diferent from figures listed elsewhere in this article (including that estimate list from the Solis company). One example: The figures for the Arab-Beber origin population in the Ethnic Groups section is listed at about 5 million (unsourced) there whereas the Immigrants section puts the number as being about 3 million. The unsourced figures and the contradictions seem to pose a problem for this article. The Tollan (talk) 18:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

UK/France: the foolish game of the Immigration

 * "[...] immigrants have accounted for one quarter of the population growth - a lower proportion than in most other European countries."
 * "[...] immigration rates in the 1980s and 1990s were much lower than in the 1960s and 1970s, especially compared to other European countries." There are still lots of quotes like that.

The United Kingdom, as well as France, is a major country of immigration. As well as the French, The British have encountered racism. As well as the French, they have still not finished. But what on earth is the aim of British people by singing their own praises about the immigration to their country at the same time as they assess the other countries' shortcomings ? Why, every time I read the British press, are there articles about racism in France ? In fact, UK is playing a game with France (without France knowing...) : inasmuch as France and UK must both clean up their racist past, the British chose, rather than taking care of what is happening in their country, to observe their old enemy across the Channel, by accusing them of being a racist country due to a low immigration rate. In France, we're having one of the most important debates we've ever had : What does "being French" mean ? All the statistics used for it show that France is the 2nd country of immigration in the world after the USA and the 1st in Europe. Is there another European country with a man of Chinese origin in its national Academy (see François Cheng de l'Académie française) ? With so much black bishops ? Which had a black minister (Rama Yade) and another one Arab (Rachida Dati)? With so much "Blacks" in its football team ? Should I mention Zinédine Zidane, Thierry Henry, Gaël Monfils, Jo Wilfried Tsonga, Tony Parker, Teddy Riner, Pascal Gentil and many others ? We don't have to show Africans and Asians everywhere on TV with the caption "People from the country" so as to have people see we are a host country; we don't need this show-off. Yakuzanodon (talk) 15:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

demographics
according to solis marketing the black population in france is 1.7 percent of the french population.the Republic of Ireland has a black population of 1.1 percent.soon Ireland will well bypass france on the percentage of this demographic.the north africans greatly outnumber blacks in france .some people get the misconception that france has a huge black population because of its  many athletes in sport but its decieving because  blacks started to come to france in 1960's and  have many   blacks born in france but for decades now france has  limited  immigration of blacks where  on the other hand  blacks  just started to come to Ireland  in  big numbers in the late  1990's and now are not too far away from  having an equal percentage of  blacks  so far 1.7 percent for france and ireland managed to reach a black population of 1.1 percent in just under 10 years. demographics are very complex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.233.228 (talk) 22:58, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You omit that blacks have been in France for centuries. France has an history of slavery just like the US, with colonization on top. I have no info on numbers as statistics on this are forbidden in France (a policy with which I am in complete agreement), and yes there is some immigration from black African ex-colonies, I just want to correct the idea that blacks started to come to France in the 60's. For example, Gaston Monnerville, a black born in French Guyana, was so well integrated that he was president of the French senate for 2 decades after WW2. Aesma (talk) 14:57, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

There was no blacks in France until the immigration-invasion started from 1960 --90.20.48.194 (talk) 00:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Obsolete data and incorrect comparison and reference to other countries
The following text in Today - Immigrants section is wrong:

"Ireland has both the highest fertility and the highest net immigration rate in Europe, whereas Eastern European countries such as Russia, Poland, Hungary and the Ukraine have both a low fertility and a high net emigration rate, as well as a high unemployment rate".

Russia does not have high net emigration rate. In fact, it has high IMMIGRATION rate, with the number of departures ten times less that the number of arrivals (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_international_migration.PNG). High unemployment rate in Russia is also quite questionable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.38.254 (talk) 19:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources?
What is the source for the numbers in the "Historical population of metropolitan France" section?Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:19, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Demograohics of France is not a model for europe
you can clearly see that all what france does is getting immigrants like crazy, you can see that at the table where they ask if at least one of your parents were born abroad or both of them. Its a total of almost 30% immigrants or half immigrants. Plus the third generation of immigrants or the immigrants who came before 1960 or so arent counted in that statistics. So the total of not french are probably at over 40% now. French do like they are a role model for europe but they arent they are importing people more than any other european country thats all. In my opinion the boy on the right side should be removed because thats not the typical looking boy in france in his age for sure.--Noelmantra (talk) 23:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

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Sickle-cell statistics (in the "ethnic groups" section)
The principal cited source for the sickle-cell stats is an alt-right, anti-immigrant website; are we OK with that? More generally, it's a questionable proxy for determining ethnicity - according to the Le Monde article cited further down, the stated guidelines for being "at risk" are in fact quite vague, and apparently some hospitals (notably in the Paris region) conduct the tests on every newborn. I'd drop those paragraphs. 2602:306:CFEA:170:F5C6:2D39:7587:F36F (talk) 06:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)