Talk:Demographics of the Southern Cone

Unsourced, politicized allegations on Brazil's race relations
1 - While in the past most of the Brazilian population tended to identify themselves as "whites"

Where was that taken from? Demographic surveys taken in the XIX century portray a large majority of Brazilians as African descended or mixed-race. The picture only began to change by the late XIX century and early XX, which coincides with significant European immigration to that country. Thus the demographic change may just reflect actual change in population composition rather than any pressure to identify as white or whiter.

2 - However, many of the Blacks self-report to be Brown in the Censuses, which reflects that the racism and stigma of being Black is still very strong in the country

I - Who said those "Blacks" cannot really be considered as Brown? Genetic studies in Brazil have often found genomic ancestry differences between Black Brazilians and Browns, with Browns having more European ancestry than Blacks. Browns' identity seems to be consistent with their ancestry's reality, not the result of some supposed pressure to not identify as Black.

II - Who said there's any stigma in the country about identifying as Black?

III - How does such stigma, supposing it exists, affect the way people identify in the Census? Why should people feel pressured to identify as whiter on the Census, if their Census identity doesn't even affect their daily affairs?

3 - the African-descendant population was divided into gradations of skin color, which led to a huge number of racial categories

Likewise one can also say that the European descended population has been divided into gradations of skin color. Browns, after all, also descend from Europeans - according to genetic studies, they are in fact more related to Europeans than to Africans. It seems the author is trying to apply the US view about race and racial mixture - see One-drop rule - to Brazil, as if it is self-evident that Browns should be grouped along with Blacks rather than in a category of their own.

The author should refrain from moralizing and politicizing the issue. If acceptable referenced are not added to the above statement, in two days I'll be removing them. Guinsberg (talk) 22:05, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm Brazilian and I agree that here European heritage is prefered upon other cultures and White is prefered upon other races even nowadays, and that it was much more serious in the past. Furthermore, he's not saying that all pardos are Black. He's saying that some persons of almost full African ancestry or phenotype like to label themselves morenos, or pardos when moreno is not available, and it's true. Black pride is a recent, post-military-dictatorship phenomena, before that was consensus in the society that Black people should try to emulate European Brazilian culture and whiten themselves via miscegenation with their descendants resulting in moreno white people.
 * And yes, there's a scale between whiteness and blackness in Brazil that goes from the stereotypically Northern and Northeastern European immigrants to the stereotypically Subsaharan African immigrant/slave, encompassing Central and Eastern Europeans (almost all brancos), stereotypically Southern Europeans like Italians, Spaniards, Greeks and Northern/Central Portuguese (brancos, rarely morenos), European Jewry (brancos, possibly some morenos, mostly morenos in the Far South of Europe), Andaluzians/Azorians/Algarvians (brancos, some morenos), Middle Easterners (in the eyes of the Brazilian, mostly referring to Syrians and Lebanese, brancos, possibly some morenos - they are whiter than the Southern and Insular Portuguese to us), Fair-skinned mestizos (brancos or morenos depending on the person and the region), European Roma (morenos, very seldom brancos), percetibly African-descendant whites (morenos, very seldom brancos) and there goes (what is considered moreno, or pardo, or mulato that is a kind of pardo, or negro/preto, I wrote in the article). So we have a scale of COLOR (branco is the white color, moreno can be translated as moorish, olive-skinned or swarthy, pardo is brown, greyish-brown or the color of the manila, preto and negro are 2 names to the black color) and not race or ancestry, what is a fact perceived by anthropologists. Lguipontes (talk) 20:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

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